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Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.27 09:39:00 -
[1]
Ok well maybe it's not all that bad, but i've just finished making some bustards and they are on the market as we speak. it's the cheepest within 8 jumps and by 1 isk in jita ya know.. Last night/this morning someone has put 2 on the market for over 2mill less than anyones. Why the hell would he do that? For some items i do know why it happens. It's not like they sell very fast, so to hack away at your own profits for no reason is just nuts. I tell ya if i wasn't running late for work i'd have bought one from him to see who he was then war dec him for the next year!
I know it's over the top but it gets right on my túts sometimes, my choices this morning are to either loose 9 mill to sell cheeper, wait it out in which time they could have gone down 16mill or buy them and sell for more(plus free war dec)
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Riethe
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Posted - 2007.11.27 09:50:00 -
[2]
The real solution here isn't to buy one and find out who he is. It's to simply buy his entire order and sell them at your price and profit off of his want to move them quicker than you.
Instead of getting upset here, you should be capitalizing on it. Don't place any emotion into your trading or you're not going to enjoy it in the future. He didn't do this to target you--and even if he did, it's your chance to turn it around into profits.
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Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.27 10:16:00 -
[3]
Your absolutly right! I've made a good few billions(about 6/7 to be precise) from trading over the last 5/6 months. But recently i've been getting into invention and manufacturing mods and ships. Now mods is not so bad, the turnaround is quite fast and there is not always a lot of difference between buy and sell orders, also i guess i make quite good isk on mods. Ships however take longer to make and after the invention process the margain is much less, if i bought his 2 it'd cost me 112million and i could get a return of just 5 mill, it's below the threshold i set for myself on margain unless it's a fast turnaround. Really i should have got on the invention bandwagon a long time ago before it was flooded, much the same as trading datacores is now! But hey thats the way it goes i guess. It'll be interesting to see what hapens with T2 BS's will the profit take into account the invention process or will it just be a minnimum profit set by the first traders....
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Shinhan
Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
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Posted - 2007.11.27 10:45:00 -
[4]
Never underestimate people's stupidity.
Finding reason why some people make stupid decisions (like selling stuff for less then their reprocess value) is very frustrating and an exercise in futility. Instead, like Riethe said, you should profit on it.
-- Selling apples, 1 signature each. ѼѼѼѼѼѼѼ |
Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.27 10:57:00 -
[5]
Aye well if they are still there when i get back today i'll go buy em(he's still getting a war dec from my mains though)
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.11.27 12:04:00 -
[6]
Quote: Never underestimate people's stupidity.
Finding reason why some people make stupid decisions (like selling stuff for less then their reprocess value) is very frustrating and an exercise in futility. Instead, like Riethe said, you should profit on it.
Before I say this, a disclaimer: This does *not* affect shareholder dividends in the slightest. This was me failing an experiment.
A while back I bought out Power Conduits in Jita at approx somewhere between 32-64k isk each. I relisted some, and managed to get all my ISK back and essentially gain 80+ free conduits by selling them at 1.2 mil.
In a similar escapade, bought out Jita's Single-Crystal I-Beams or whatever they are called. Bought up at 7 mil p/u approx (165 mil total) and relisted some at 17 mil. Within three days their price had plummeted to 3 million isk.
These things arent manufactured, they're found/salvaged, so what possesses people who find them to plummet prices like that is beyond me,,, while I'm not attributing it to my lack of skill with market stuff (only one way to learn really) I'd be more willing to attribute it to other stuff, especially when I hear stories about people reprocessing best-named equipment to 'make profit' off the minerals.
Improve Market Competition!
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Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.27 12:44:00 -
[7]
And of coarse, when buying out all the stock there is always the worry that another batch will come on the market at much lower price and too many for you to buy out again. Really the way to have done that would be to buy all the current stock, put at a much higher price and at the same time place a buy order not too much lower than your selling, thus stopping the huge price cuts and generally raising the market price. Of coarse this could well go the other way if your stock is not a really fast seller.
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.11.27 13:38:00 -
[8]
So, what did you do? Presuming that the purpose of their price reduction was to get a quick sale, then it was correct if: You bought them out. (very quick sale) You decided to wait them out (you would have undercut them had they just undercut you by 1 isk)
If you undercut them anyway, then they didnt lower their price enough to get a quick sale.
If over the next day or so, all their order and all your order sold, then their decision was definatly wrong; they could have priced at the same price as your order and still sold.
Remember, reducing the price can increase demand, as people may think they are getting a good price and buy or buy more.
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Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.27 13:53:00 -
[9]
I've tried (I'm sure we all went through this) the different ways around this myself. Do you buy the undercut items and resell them, do you wait it out, do you undercut your own prices.
It's annoying as hell, but it's part of the magic of our free market in Eve. I've found depending on the type of item in question, how volatile the price is, and the stock level in mention shapes my reaction to undercutting.
All of the methods work in my experience - just not all the time :) Generally though, if they are undercutting you a substantial amount just buy them up and re-list.
Eve Web Design | PerthChat | Learning to Trade
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.11.27 14:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Astorothe All of the methods work in my experience - just not all the time :) Generally though, if they are undercutting you a substantial amount just buy them up and re-list.
I'm currently going through the inverse situation. We keeping increasing price on what we are trying to buy and I know I'm wondering if I'm being led upwards so someone can dump on me. Lord knows I'm only looking to buy t1 stock for t2 production, casually, so I can't dump on him. And, to my humor, it is the mission runners who profit most. As they should.
Taikun's Lost Bet |
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Ms Nomer
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Posted - 2007.11.27 14:33:00 -
[11]
If you diversify your orders, then you won't need to worry too much about it. You can sit on the market and wait, or take the cut in profit as long as other orders are turning a profit for you.
as for why would someone do it? Most likely for a quicker sale.
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Fabricati Diem
Burleigh and Strong
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Posted - 2007.11.27 17:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shinhan Never underestimate people's stupidity.
Finding reason why some people make stupid decisions (like selling stuff for less then their reprocess value) is very frustrating and an exercise in futility. Instead, like Riethe said, you should profit on it.
Unless you know what their motives and goals are, calling an action stupid is premature at best. They may have valid reasons for doing things they way they did, and achieved what they intended.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.27 18:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Fabricati Diem
Originally by: Shinhan Never underestimate people's stupidity.
Finding reason why some people make stupid decisions (like selling stuff for less then their reprocess value) is very frustrating and an exercise in futility. Instead, like Riethe said, you should profit on it.
Unless you know what their motives and goals are, calling an action stupid is premature at best. They may have valid reasons for doing things they way they did, and achieved what they intended.
I'm glad at least one person here said this.
You have no idea how many people have sent me eve-mails telling me what a stupid trader I am. They get very heated and very angry with me. I usually inform them that their displeasure is what I live for and I thank them for the extremely helpful tips which I will ignore.
If you can't understand why someone else does something it may not be the other guy that is stupid.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Estate
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shadarle If you can't understand why someone else does something it may not be the other guy that is stupid.
However let's not forget that there are actually stupid people out there too =D
Also, everyone has different thresholds for their work/profit ratio. I personally maximize the isk/time ratio unless it is part of a longer operation. Other people are happy with a few mil profit for an hour's work, and will spend 12 hours a day to make the same ISK I make after an hour's work. But if they think this is normal and are happy with their margins, then when I ruin margins, who is actually winning? I would say the guy who is happy with his **** profits, because a lot of market pvp is about morale. You should be either manipulating the markets to your profit, or if there is too much competition, show that you're going to keep the market unprofitable with more endurance than the other guys are going to hold out with. Eventually someone will *****, because everyone has their threshold.
Every instance is a judgment call, and the only way to learn to make those better is through experience.
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Asania Dre
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Posted - 2007.11.27 21:10:00 -
[15]
Let me prefix this by saying I'm no market mogul. It all seems like too much work when I could be out blowing stuff up.
I did something similar. Had a couple of Prospector implants I just got from my agent and took them to Jita. I was after a quick sale so I put them on at about 10M (about 5%) under the rest, thinking that a reseller would just pick them off and put them back at market price.
1 of them did sell, to a genuine user of it I assume. After that though, 2 more were put on at prices under me. I guess if I had the isk free I could buy them and resell back at market price, but it seems like too much effort :p
The price list for them looks a bit odd now, with a load of orders close to one price, then a big gap, then a few orders close to the lower price.
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Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.28 09:55:00 -
[16]
I know why people reduce the market price of things, it's a valid and worthy tactic...... on things like datacores but not on bustards It simply wouldn't make the same difference as in datacores. Anyway, i got home last night and the market had flopped, i'd missed the opportunity to buy his stock and instead decreased my price, was either that or pull them off the market for a while. So anyway i have the next batch just come of the line, going to hold out for them
TBH i'm mostly gutted because i wanted to war dec the guy for being a crap trader
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.11.28 12:19:00 -
[17]
So, see if I have got this right.
Undercutting the price of bustards in Jita will get you a free wardec.
Woot, I am up for that.
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Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.28 12:25:00 -
[18]
Hehe, yes it may well do I've always wanted to start a trading based war!! If only trading alts like myself had to join there mains corps!
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Markus De'Helude
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Posted - 2007.11.28 19:37:00 -
[19]
I know how you feel Savanna.. Had this kinda thing happen to me before.
First was with Cov-op cloaks. back when invention first started the prices of these dropped very quickly in jita, but not in outer areas, so i would go to jita, but 10-20 at 15-20m and then move them to Teonusde/gelfiven area and sell them for about 60-70m. Would sell them out in a day or 2. Then did it again another day, brought them down, and found someone had put up sell orders for 25m... now... i understand market pvp and all, but selling 10 items for 40m less then the next highest order, when they are selling like hotcakes makes no sense to me. Now why didn't I jump in and buy those to resell? Because the rest of the lemmings in the area jumped off the cliff too and played the .01 isk war with them effectivly killing the market in that area.
Also having that same problem with overdrives. someone put up a sell order of 50 of them for 1.1m, next highest in system was 1.35m or so... i invent these things so i know the cost of them, and if hes making ANY isk off this i don't understand how...
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Ardent Rellik
Gallente MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2007.11.29 02:50:00 -
[20]
I frequently buyout the entire stock of my competition. Often enough I have people buy my stock and then try to leverage it on the market a few hours later to force me to lower my prices.
I just go ahead an buy all of the stuff they bought from me, and resell it a bit higher, it all sells eventually, and I get hate mails, and war declarations, but they go away too.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.29 05:02:00 -
[21]
Whine whine whine.
The more I make everyone else on the market mad the better job I am doing. I absolutely love angering everyone else who trades/manufactures. I don't care if every single trader loses money, as long as I am making a profit. In fact, it is a bonus to me if I hurt the other people trading the items I trade. I don't want trading to be easy or profitable for you, I want it to suck for you so you get out of my way. If this means I have to destroy a market occasionally then that's what I'll do. I deal in so many markets, don't bother sending me an eve-mail because I killed your personal market... I don't care about any single market.
I've gotten many war-decs, they make me quite happy. I've gotten lots of hate-mail, they make even happier. So please, war-dec me or send me hate mail if I've hurt your personal market or screwed you in some market related way. I love to hear the whines resulting from a job well done.
Every single complaint here about what other "stupid" traders have done shows a lack of understanding. They all come from the viewpoint of a smalltime trader who hasn't yet expanded to the big time yet. You have to look at things from others viewpoints besides your own. Someone is not stupid because they made 500k less on a single item than you did, but 500 million more on other items than you.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.29 09:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shadarle Whine whine whine.
The more I make everyone else on the market mad the better job I am doing. I absolutely love angering everyone else who trades/manufactures. I don't care if every single trader loses money, as long as I am making a profit. In fact, it is a bonus to me if I hurt the other people trading the items I trade. I don't want trading to be easy or profitable for you, I want it to suck for you so you get out of my way. If this means I have to destroy a market occasionally then that's what I'll do. I deal in so many markets, don't bother sending me an eve-mail because I killed your personal market... I don't care about any single market.
I've gotten many war-decs, they make me quite happy. I've gotten lots of hate-mail, they make even happier. So please, war-dec me or send me hate mail if I've hurt your personal market or screwed you in some market related way. I love to hear the whines resulting from a job well done.
Every single complaint here about what other "stupid" traders have done shows a lack of understanding. They all come from the viewpoint of a smalltime trader who hasn't yet expanded to the big time yet. You have to look at things from others viewpoints besides your own. Someone is not stupid because they made 500k less on a single item than you did, but 500 million more on other items than you.
WOW, angry at the world hey I have traded billions and i wouldn't consider myself a small time trader. I think you have not managed to grasp the problem we're talking about! The guy may well make 500mill on something else, but he made an unnesesary loss on Bustards! If it was Mechanical engineering datacores then it's understandable if not expected. Yeh i crash markets for my own gain, i'll undercut buy 1 isk, i'll be ther ready and waiting for the selling price to change so i can chnage mine! I do it for isk, not to upset other people, i use my main to do that in combat! I think your a bit odd
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Wieting Foyu
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Posted - 2007.11.29 18:52:00 -
[23]
How can the guy be stupid for not wanting to play your 1 ISK game? He obviously didn't want to watch his stock as much as you do just to go down 1 ISk every five minutes. I personally know what will make me a profit and how fast it will go at what price. I work in many regions and can't keep an eye on just one market. So I would rather undercut the lowest order by 20% and still make a profit (specially if I notice you just did only 1 isk difference from the last order) then sit at a station all day and pay 100 isk to continuously play til one of us gives up. And if you do decide to buy me out and resell, what just happened? I sold the stock for the price I asked. If anything its the stupid traders that need alts to wardec.
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Lady Beauvoir
Slutty Witches
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Posted - 2007.11.29 21:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Svanna Gulmi
Originally by: Shadarle Whine whine whine.
The more I make everyone else on the market mad the better job I am doing. I absolutely love angering everyone else who trades/manufactures. I don't care if every single trader loses money, as long as I am making a profit. In fact, it is a bonus to me if I hurt the other people trading the items I trade. I don't want trading to be easy or profitable for you, I want it to suck for you so you get out of my way. If this means I have to destroy a market occasionally then that's what I'll do. I deal in so many markets, don't bother sending me an eve-mail because I killed your personal market... I don't care about any single market.
I've gotten many war-decs, they make me quite happy. I've gotten lots of hate-mail, they make even happier. So please, war-dec me or send me hate mail if I've hurt your personal market or screwed you in some market related way. I love to hear the whines resulting from a job well done.
Every single complaint here about what other "stupid" traders have done shows a lack of understanding. They all come from the viewpoint of a smalltime trader who hasn't yet expanded to the big time yet. You have to look at things from others viewpoints besides your own. Someone is not stupid because they made 500k less on a single item than you did, but 500 million more on other items than you.
WOW, angry at the world hey I have traded billions and i wouldn't consider myself a small time trader. I think you have not managed to grasp the problem we're talking about! The guy may well make 500mill on something else, but he made an unnesesary loss on Bustards! If it was Mechanical engineering datacores then it's understandable if not expected. Yeh i crash markets for my own gain, i'll undercut buy 1 isk, i'll be ther ready and waiting for the selling price to change so i can chnage mine! I do it for isk, not to upset other people, i use my main to do that in combat! I think your a bit odd
I understand Shadarle. I do the same. On occassion I will crash markets and sell for a tiny profit just so that the other traders will lose isk in trading with the commodity I'm working on. Even when I could earn more. That keeps them away.
I can think of several reasons on why that particular trader sold his bustards for 2 mil under the next market order. For example, he might have gone on a vacation and known that his next stock finishes up a day after he returns from the vacation and priced his goods so that he is still making profit but there's an incentive for an another trader to buy and resell his stock. And that's just one reason - think outside the box.
"Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.29 21:47:00 -
[25]
Not to mention that 2 bustards is absolutely piddles. Pricing ships at 2 mil under the current sell orders is something I do basically every day for one reason or another. The fact that someone doing this with only 2 ships frustrated the OP enough to cause this post is truly the shocking thing here.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.11.30 09:15:00 -
[26]
It was an off the cuff rant you dohnut! Yeh it's buttons your right, 4 mill to him and 8 mill to me i have billions so not excatly bad event of the century. I don't trade ships i trade mods and other bits n pieces, i make ships! so trying to justify the profit for the time invested is difficult to do. And i'm sorry m8 but i don't buy it, undercutting the market by that much coz he's of on his holls? Don't be daft, he should expect to be undercut by 1 isk and he was by half a dozen people! All that has happened is bustards are now 2 mill cheeper/les profitable to make, and unless he himself goes through a dozen of them a day there was no need to do the undercut in the first place. Sure the market always swings around and everything finds it's natural value eventually but sometimes i just think WTF at some people. And war decs for trade imo is fare enough. People have there own motives trading, weather it's crashing the price of datacores to buy for use cheep or to sell later when the price restores! I'm a PvP'er with a tast for lots of isk, so why not use it as an excuse for war......
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Daeva Vios
PhaseShifter Technologies
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Posted - 2007.11.30 12:42:00 -
[27]
There may be a third option.
Just recently I've pulled out of a few markets that have stopped being profitable enough to explain my continued presence in them. I had large enough stock saved up that I was able to flood the markets.
For fun, I tested how far my competition would go to compete. I've cut the prices by several millions so far and as far as I'm concerned, I'll keep driving prices down until I'm out of stock. Again...just for fun.
This is a game. Money is the tool we use to play the game. It seems to me that if you truly do trade in the billions you claim, you're placing far too much value on each individual isk. In essence, you've lost sight of the forest for the trees.
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.11.30 13:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Svanna Gulmi Don't be daft, he should expect to be undercut by 1 isk and he was by half a dozen people!
So he has not lost anything by reducing the price by 2 mil.
Because if he didnt successfully sell them at that reduced price, he certainly wouldnt have sold them at the price 2 mil higher.
I guess he should knock another 2 mil off the price, and see if his ships sell.
The fact that half a doszen people could undercut him means that those ships were previously overpriced compared to the demand.
Putting up a sell order at a price you are happy to sell at, which is lower than other peoples sell orders is fine. Just as selling to peoles buy orders is fine.
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Riethe
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Posted - 2007.11.30 15:21:00 -
[29]
This thread is an obvious waste of effort as far as contributions go. This guy clearly does not get it, and as far as his claims that he moves billions, well, that's just nonsense. He wouldn't be throwing a tissyfit over 4 million ISK or whatever he said it was.
To be honest the level of intelligence he's displaying makes me wonder who exactly he can fool with these claims. Look guy, you were provided solutions, you shouldn't be freaking out over this. Quit guessing random crap about what someone might be doing in the market.
For all you know, this guy is making 100% profit off his ship because someone gave it to him, or he found it out in the middle of space. So to say he is taking a loss is a ridiculous statement. You have no idea what this person's intentions are.
If you have as much money as you say you do, you wouldn't be so butthurt over your obvious market dominance of bustards in Jita being undercut by ONE WHOLE SELL ORDER!
Failure.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.30 16:14:00 -
[30]
The above two posts are both pretty much the way I feel.
The only reason the OP is mad is because he is a manufacturer and people are lowering the value of his T2 BPO. The problem is that the price of bustards has always fluctuated up/down by 5-10 billion over time. I've bought some for 40 bil and sold some for 60 bil. So I really do question if the OP actually knows this market very well at all, as anyone who does would know the market goes up/down a bit over time due to demand levels.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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