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[CAP4U] Stop trading tha shares

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LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.28 18:25:00 - [1] Ok, this have been comming over the last week. But my pride over this great IPO, which keeps getting requests for more shares, have been make me hang on till the last. But short story is that exams are comming up in January. I have more homework this time around. My doctor wants me to come to more consultations(He says im crazy, meh). Im going on holiday around christmas. Etc. etc. etc. Its been hard to justify for myself to take this step. But im asking you guys not to trade with the shares for the time being. Ill set a buy back in place(Wont be paying it out trough the shares channel, due to the fact that some of the shareholders have gone MIA(Maybe even banned) and one have pulled a scam. If people want, they can start contacting me and selling me back their shares. Ill continue trading and stuff till around new years eve, and pay out what i can. But the closure of CAP4U is hard to get around. Its all come very sudden all this. And i had very much hoped that id be able to continue paying out isk to all my lovely share holders, who put trust in me for which im very happy. But CAP4U have paid out to date 30% of the inital value in 4 months, which i think is quite good. So im pleased with the results. So while CAP4U might put it self to rest slowly, it isnt the end of me. Yes, im sorry. Ill still be around asking all the stupid questions. And ill still continue supporting ebank. So this isnt the last you have heard from me, but it will be only IPO you will see from me. This was a bit unorganized. But feel free to ask questions. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.28 18:44:00 - [2] Vista, if you are needing help for over the Christmas period I will be able to give you a hand with construction and logistics. I have 10 free build slots on this charecter alone so give a shout and I should be able to lend a hand over the exam period. Rate my charecters please http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=642081WTS Rorq
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:06:00 - [3] Ok, for my own ease, in setting a date... 21th December to get in touch with me to get their money back. Either we do the transfer directly, or im sure ebank can handle it. Im sorry im not paying out trough the shares system. But i hope that you guys understand that i cant pay out isk to a scammer. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:00:00 - [4] ISK to a scammer? Who was that?? What you could do is make a new CAP4U holding corp, reissue the shares minus the scammers shares and pay through that if a scammer has invested. Rate my charecters please - 2M isk for a good review for the first 3 people!!
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Kirjava ISK to a scammer? Who was that?? What you could do is make a new CAP4U holding corp, reissue the shares minus the scammers shares and pay through that if a scammer has invested. I dont tell the names of my investors. But the person is a scammer. So im just doing it this way. Also i might have an investors who could be banned, so meh, ill do it this way. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:19:00 - [6] Edited by: Havok Pierce on 30/11/2007 00:24:17 Edited by: Havok Pierce on 30/11/2007 00:21:05 LaVista, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to cry foul here. If someone invested in your company, they gave you isk. If you're liquidating, PAY THE SHARES AS THEY ARE DISTRIBUTED. I do not care what their situation is (MIA/dead/banned/etc), and neither should you (even if it does mean I get a bit less ISK for my shares). Not doing so sets a dangerous precedent (which would give me great pause to ever invest again with you at the helm) -- the precedent of whim. And personally, I'm shocked to not have seen anyone else calling foul here. Ricdic? Hexxx? Shadarle? Shar Tegral? Where are any of you? Shazbot, even considering this creeps the heck out of me. EDIT: Isn't it possible to send an EVEMail out to all shareholders? EDITx2: Yes, I am a shareholder. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Sphynx Stormlord Gallente Anqara Tech	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:22:00 - [7] If a 'scammer' has shares invested in your venture, and you are buying back everyone elses, except theirs, that means that the shares you sold them were (or have become) a scam.
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord If a 'scammer' has shares invested in your venture, and you are buying back everyone elses, except theirs, that means that the shares you sold them were (or have become) a scam. More specifically, is it not your place to dictate whose shares are paid back in the event of a liquidation. This power was never given in your prospectus (and had it been, I would've called foul then). Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:38:00 - [9] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 30/11/2007 00:39:28 The only case in which its valid to do this to avoid paying back a scammer is if the scammer ripped off your public corporation (yours specifically, not anyone else's) in one way or another. Otherwise, you really have no right to do so. This has happened in the past! Example: 1. Person X scams your corporation for 1 billion ISK. Your corporation is worth 8 billion ISK. 2. Person X has 1 billion ISK in shares in your corporation. 3. You issue a new set of shares without giving him any, and call it a fair trade. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:42:00 - [10] I kind of see this like torturing suspected terrorists. Its probably wrong, but nobody really cares... It's better then Quafe!

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Dr Slurm I kind of see this like torturing suspected terrorists. Except that in EVE, there is nothing "illegal" about scamming; while you may disagree with it, you don't really have a right to revoke shares of those who do it unless their actions affected your corporation. It's a slippery slope; what next, revoking shares for being a pirate? For fighting your alliance in times of war? For podkilling you? 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Dr Slurm I kind of see this like torturing suspected terrorists. Except that in EVE, there is nothing "illegal" about scamming; while you may disagree with it, you don't really have a right to revoke shares of those who do it unless their actions affected your corporation. It's a slippery slope; what next, revoking shares for being a pirate? For fighting your alliance in times of war? For podkilling you? And that's why I called foul -- whim-based power such as that has no place in a business. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Trading Bunnz ElArms International	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:07:00 - [13] Personally, I gave him a serve over exactly the same issues in EGSEX last night but he raised another reason not listed here that at least partially explains why the liquidation is being done this way. That information should have been made public however rather than having to be dragged out after about 30m of somewhat heated discussion.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:27:00 - [14] Edited by: Hexxx on 30/11/2007 01:27:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Dr Slurm I kind of see this like torturing suspected terrorists. Except that in EVE, there is nothing "illegal" about scamming; while you may disagree with it, you don't really have a right to revoke shares of those who do it unless their actions affected your corporation. It's a slippery slope; what next, revoking shares for being a pirate? For fighting your alliance in times of war? For podkilling you? DS is pointing out something very important; integrity. As an IPO manager, in my opinion, you should not engage in this kind of "judgement" because it is a slippery slope indeed. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Hexxx DS is pointing out something very important; integrity. As an IPO manager, in my opinion, you should not engage in this kind of "judgement" because it is a slippery slope indeed. >.> <.< What am I then? Pod goo? sigh Doomed to obscurity. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:36:00 - [16] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 30/11/2007 01:37:59 I agreed to revoking share payment if the entity in question scams you, but then I thought of this scenario. Corporation A has an IPO, with shares issued for, say, 100k a piece. Corporation B declares war on corporation A, subsequently destroys. Corporation B (or people within corporation B) begin buying up shareholders shares at 200k a piece. OR Corp A has an IPO, Corp B (a merc corp) buys a significant amount of shares. Corp B is contracted against Corp A. Corp B helped Corp A to achieve it's position by buying shares, hence why should corp A strip away corp B's dividends, since doing so does nothing to slow down attacks, which are a direct translation of the funds provided by the corp whom contracted corp B. Or,, well, you get the idea, there's a million situations where although your Corporation is at odds with a shareholder, it may not be within rights to strip dividends. although if provisioned for in an IPO, with an ability to nullify payments to shares (can haz share UI plz kthnkxbye), embargoes could be put in place for the term of the wardec. Either way, what I thought was a simple answer (yes it's right to strip away the benefits of dividends if you're being negative against a corp) has been changed in my mind pretty quick. I mean, what about a shareholder destroying your assets vs a shareholder engaging in market PvP with you. Quote: As an IPO manager, in my opinion, you should not engage in this kind of "judgement" because it is a slippery slope indeed. Unless it's strictly spelt out in an IPO's terms and agreements. Even though I don't feel "at risk" of such an action (yet), I almost feel like putting up a shareholder vote to bring about such a policy. Improve Market Competition!
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:45:00 - [17] Totally agreed that with-holding ISK - unless that person has scammed from your corporation - is totally out of order. There's another problem with buying shares back manually as well: until all assets are disposed of you don't know the actual value that's being liquidated - and hence don't know the proper price to buy-back at. Dividending our monies as they become available is the fairest and most transparent way to do things. If someone's gone MIA that's no reason for the ISK they invested to suddenly become yours.
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:24:00 - [18] Did your IPO have a statement in the initial post that said "if you are a scammer I reserve the right to not pay any ISK to you upon liquidation"? If not then you are the one who is a scammer.
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 05:56:00 - [19] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 30/11/2007 06:02:06 Edited by: LaVista Vista on 30/11/2007 05:59:19 Ok, let me clear this up: 1. No final dividend will happen because of several things: 2. I have a privat deal with one of the investors to keep onto his isk 3. A shareholder happen to be an IPO owner, who have gone MIA for several monts now, so likely its a scam till otherwise proved. If the dude does come back, ill of course give him his isk back(Its only like 100mill) 4. A dude was banned seemingly, so id be paying into an black hole. As i talked about on EGSEX yesterday, if i really saw the final dividend to be an option, wouldnt i use it? Im seriously using 25 days here to wait for people to get in touch with me. If i could walk away done in 5 minut, hell id do that. But its not possible. Originally by: Havok Pierce EDIT: Isn't it possible to send an EVEMail out to all shareholders? EDITx2: Yes, I am a shareholder. An evemail was sent out yesterday. Originally by: FastLearner There's another problem with buying shares back manually as well: until all assets are disposed of you don't know the actual value that's being liquidated - and hence don't know the proper price to buy-back at. Dividending our monies as they become available is the fairest and most transparent way to do things. No, i do know what my assets are worth. All my BPO's have been listed at NPC price, and all my stuff is for sale on the market. And there is indeed 20bil.. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:07:00 - [20] Edited by: Shadarle on 30/11/2007 06:08:55 Couldn't you just create a new corp, send out shares to all but those 3 people (PP, ?Blue Dice?, Banned Guy), send PP his portion of the money, then pay dividends using these new shares. You're done. It's a little bit of work but once you have liquidated everything you could do all the rest of this in an hour. EDIT> I was working on getting a new computer up all day so I have barely read these forums for 18+ hours. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 30/11/2007 06:08:55 Couldn't you just create a new corp, send out shares to all but those 3 people (PP, ?Blue Dice?, Banned Guy), send PP his portion of the money, then pay dividends using these new shares. You're done. It's a little bit of work but once you have liquidated everything you could do all the rest of this in an hour. EDIT> I was working on getting a new computer up all day so I have barely read these forums for 18+ hours. I cant send shares to a corp, can i? Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:17:00 - [22] Originally by: LaVista Vista But feel free to ask questions. Ok... no questions but I offer a solution. You don't reveal your investors. Fine, however since 'scamming' is a legal aactic in this game, so should 'legal' recourse to recover stolen isk. Therefore, I suggest that if you are AWARE that one of your investors is a scammer. I.e. ran their own bogus IPO and ripped off other people, you are obligated to report as such to the authorities. In other words through open and transparent reporting to us (the market), and investors. you have a duty of care to ensure your operations are connected or tainted by doing business with known scammers. It is your responsibility to forece yourself to 'return' these shares and divest yourself of this persons involvement with your outfit. By forcing this person out of your operation in a public fashion will allow other people who have a claim over the invested isk can place a lien over it. This prevents you from releasing it to the 'scammer investor' as it is now a disputed asset. Therefore, you can release all the other isk form the other shares and withhold the amount of the 'scammer' until its ownership has been settled. Forget these bozzos saying you had to have written about it in your IPO. Do whatever you feel is best for your operations. They are whaffling on about 'integrtiy' when obviously you are attempting to do the right thing based upon your operations. The shares are disputed assets. Seems to me you have NO choice but to withhold it if you are 100% aware that the individual has perpetrated a fraudulent act, and the shares are disputed assets. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:19:00 - [23] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 30/11/2007 06:08:55 Couldn't you just create a new corp, send out shares to all but those 3 people (PP, ?Blue Dice?, Banned Guy), send PP his portion of the money, then pay dividends using these new shares. You're done. It's a little bit of work but once you have liquidated everything you could do all the rest of this in an hour. EDIT> I was working on getting a new computer up all day so I have barely read these forums for 18+ hours. I cant send shares to a corp, can i? This seems easy enough to get around if you're right (I don't personally know)... ask them to put the shares on a character so you know which to send it to. You've already asked them to get in contact with you if they want money, you aren't asking any more to have them move shares to a character. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Oliver Snow Perizene Technology Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Dr Slurm I kind of see this like torturing suspected terrorists. Its probably wrong, but nobody really cares... I'm going to say a lot of innocent people would disagree with you. If you have an obligation to live up to then do so, withholding payment from your investors really isn't right. -------------- IPO Thread Current Press Release
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Taikun Forget these bozzos saying you had to have written about it in your IPO. Do whatever you feel is best for your operations. They are whaffling on about 'integrtiy' when obviously you are attempting to do the right thing based upon your operations. The shares are disputed assets. Seems to me you have NO choice but to withhold it if you are 100% aware that the individual has perpetrated a fraudulent act, and the shares are disputed assets. Taikun Cheers Taikun, thats exactly what im trying to say. It might or might not be the person Shardale guessed above. The dude have a small investment, but havent been seen online for several months. If he contacts me, ill want proof that the isk from his IPO isnt scammed, and that people who invested will get some info. Its not even worth for me to "scam" 100mill. Seriously. Thats just totally ******** to think. If i scammed, why would i do 100mill, when i could get 20bill? Why do 20bill, when im sure i could get more if i expanded? Leave alone the fact that it would ruin my repuptation, it could also ruin ebank. And trust me, i wouldnt possibly have any harm done to ebank. I would feel really bad about that. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 30/11/2007 06:08:55 Couldn't you just create a new corp, send out shares to all but those 3 people (PP, ?Blue Dice?, Banned Guy), send PP his portion of the money, then pay dividends using these new shares. You're done. It's a little bit of work but once you have liquidated everything you could do all the rest of this in an hour. EDIT> I was working on getting a new computer up all day so I have barely read these forums for 18+ hours. I cant send shares to a corp, can i? This seems easy enough to get around if you're right (I don't personally know)... ask them to put the shares on a character so you know which to send it to. You've already asked them to get in contact with you if they want money, you aren't asking any more to have them move shares to a character. Yes, you can send shares to a corp. Right click the shares in question. Type in the name of the corp in the search box. Transfer. It's better then Quafe!
Proton Power Amarr Power Corrupts Tech Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:08:00 - [27] I really do not care how you do it. Over all I prefer the pay everyone via dividends, that seems to be the over all prefered method. If you do not want to pay one or 2 people for what ever reason and they do not come forward calling foul I don't see what the point in paying them is. If they do come calling Foul, then it would have to be a case by case basis, IE did they actually scam. I am all in for not paying somone that scammed an IPO or hurt your IPO. ----------------------------------------------- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:45:00 - [28] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Taikun Forget these bozzos saying you had to have written about it in your IPO. Do whatever you feel is best for your operations. They are whaffling on about 'integrtiy' when obviously you are attempting to do the right thing based upon your operations. The shares are disputed assets. Seems to me you have NO choice but to withhold it if you are 100% aware that the individual has perpetrated a fraudulent act, and the shares are disputed assets. Taikun Cheers Taikun, thats exactly what im trying to say. It might or might not be the person Shardale guessed above. The dude have a small investment, but havent been seen online for several months. If he contacts me, ill want proof that the isk from his IPO isnt scammed, and that people who invested will get some info. Its not even worth for me to "scam" 100mill. Seriously. Thats just totally ******** to think. If i scammed, why would i do 100mill, when i could get 20bill? Why do 20bill, when im sure i could get more if i expanded? Leave alone the fact that it would ruin my repuptation, it could also ruin ebank. And trust me, i wouldnt possibly have any harm done to ebank. I would feel really bad about that. I wouldn't think you would scam for 100 mil. But if it is considered something other than scamming and doesn't hurt your rep in any way then it changes things quite a bit. I am quite certain you didn't expect people to respond the way they did. You figured that people would be fine with you avoiding paying scammers. I 100% agree you shouldn't pay a banned account. CCP should actually return all shares to the issued corp when an account is perma-banned imo. But that's another story. But scammers is a totally different story. It all depends who they scam, how they scam, why they scam, what they scam, and when they scammed it. In the case of Blue Dice, he disappeared and isn't even playing it seems so I have no problem with him not getting a penny either. But you shouldn't be keeping the isk, it should be distributed to all shareholders evenly. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 08:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Taikun Forget these bozzos saying you had to have written about it in your IPO. Do whatever you feel is best for your operations. They are whaffling on about 'integrtiy' when obviously you are attempting to do the right thing based upon your operations. The shares are disputed assets. Seems to me you have NO choice but to withhold it if you are 100% aware that the individual has perpetrated a fraudulent act, and the shares are disputed assets. Taikun Cheers Taikun, thats exactly what im trying to say. It might or might not be the person Shardale guessed above. The dude have a small investment, but havent been seen online for several months. If he contacts me, ill want proof that the isk from his IPO isnt scammed, and that people who invested will get some info. Its not even worth for me to "scam" 100mill. Seriously. Thats just totally ******** to think. If i scammed, why would i do 100mill, when i could get 20bill? Why do 20bill, when im sure i could get more if i expanded? Leave alone the fact that it would ruin my repuptation, it could also ruin ebank. And trust me, i wouldnt possibly have any harm done to ebank. I would feel really bad about that. I wouldn't think you would scam for 100 mil. But if it is considered something other than scamming and doesn't hurt your rep in any way then it changes things quite a bit. I am quite certain you didn't expect people to respond the way they did. You figured that people would be fine with you avoiding paying scammers. I 100% agree you shouldn't pay a banned account. CCP should actually return all shares to the issued corp when an account is perma-banned imo. But that's another story. But scammers is a totally different story. It all depends who they scam, how they scam, why they scam, what they scam, and when they scammed it. In the case of Blue Dice, he disappeared and isn't even playing it seems so I have no problem with him not getting a penny either. But you shouldn't be keeping the isk, it should be distributed to all shareholders evenly. I actually talked to a GM about this when i first heard the shareholder in question had done this thing against the EULA, after he admitted it to me in a convo(How stupid). They couldnt return the shares, because due to privacy issue, they can neither confirm or deconfirm that hes banned. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan


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