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Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:39:00 - [1] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 29/11/2007 04:42:00 It's 4am. There's 180 people in the local intel channel. I'm in mamet - I see 3 reds and about 4 blues. The scary statistic is there are 92 poeple in local and this is not uncommon.... People like Yuyis Inthesun, Yong One, Wenwen, Qkewhxt.... All appear to have spent 1 or 5 months in the starter corp, all in industrials, and most have zero corp standings and zero sec status except for a 9.5 for Imperial Armaments. I have a VERY hard time believing that these are genuine players spending their first few months hauling on courier missions ceaselessly. Certainly not 80 or more of the same that all happen to be using the same agents...It just stinks of macro. As a friend of the local power 'CVA' we adhere to their standings guides for the lower Domain and Providence area, and take the stance that people destroying these Macro haulers will be excommunicated from intel channels etc. Rightly so in a way because attacking 'neutral' pilots breaks their own NRDS rules which I do agree with. I'd also be loathe to shoot one these haulers to find out it was a genuine new player looking to get started, but anyone can see that with SO many and the way they operate, these haulers are plainly using macro scripts. Shoot them and they seemingly multiply anyway so even the local pirates can't deal with them... My questions to CCP are what are they doing to filter out these Macro Haulers? Can someone from CCP or the GM team come and take a look at the problem in Mamet for themselves??? I've petitioned several suspected macros but it seems to have no impact on their numbers. CCP really need a more efficient/speedy process of banning these accounts and tracing the where the money they are making is going to/coming from and bring down these ISK farmers - Is this in the pipeline? I realise that it might not be in CCP's interest banning accounts as that is their revenue - but surely Macro ISK farming on this scale is damaging the game for the rest of the genuine players... I know it is driving me nuts. What say you CCP? - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Barasu Minmatar The JORG Corporation Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:42:00 - [2] I have thought of blowing em all up and selling haulers on market for rediculus prices but so far I haven't done it. Thinking if I blow em all up after I have bought every hauler on the market and put em back up for 100% increase in cost!
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:46:00 - [3] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 29/11/2007 04:46:43 So CVA actually condones macro-farming or what? Maybe you should reconsider your standings if you have a problem with the macrohaulers? However you can go to Loes or Jovainnon and its the same there. Its been posted 100 times so its pretty old news. Just shoot them when you are bored and no one wants to fight you. Its a nice distraction for an hour or two. Sometimes they (the farmers) get angry and field some battleships and such. That can be fun.
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:48:00 - [4] actually it would be nice to get mamet turned to 0,0 ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Phiberoptick	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:55:00 - [5] macro haulers are EVERYWHERE, seriously there is a lot
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.11.29 05:00:00 - [6] Quote: As a friend of the local power 'CVA' we adhere to their standings guides for the lower Domain and Providence area, and take the stance that people destroying these Macro haulers will be excommunicated from intel channels etc. Rightly so in a way because attacking 'neutral' pilots breaks their own NRDS rules which I do agree with. An exception can't be made for these people? EVE RELATED CONTENT
Lowanaera Amarr Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 05:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 29/11/2007 04:46:43 So CVA actually condones macro-farming or what? Maybe you should reconsider your standings if you have a problem with the macrohaulers? We operate NRDS and require it of all those living in our space and neighboring low-sec pipes. When people go shooting the macroers, they end up killing legitimate non-macro NPC-corp members as well, so we've forbidden it. Additionally, when pirate corps have infested a local system in force and killed hundreds of them, it has had no apparent effect, so I'm not sure changing our policy would accomplish anything anyway. We are firmly anti-macro, but burning all our sec status for no effect and with a high risk of taking out innocent bystanders is unacceptable and pointless.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 05:41:00 - [8] i recently tried blowing these kinds up for a bit in Arzi and totally forgot that you loose standing towards their NPC corp aswell -.- anyway - one guy "won" the award for being most persistent; he came back for another 4 wreck productions. keep this up for only an hour or two and your next weeks are planned out with hunting 0.0-rats. - putting the gist back into logistics
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 05:57:00 - [9] Indeed - Lowenera put it much better than I did... It isn't that CVA don't hate the Macros, it is just that they know well the futility of killing the macros at the risk of standings, sec ratings and killing non-macro haulers by mistake. The real questions are for CCP and how they are dealing with this problem? (Or intend to since it seems to be increasing) I know it has been posted before but it doesn't hurt to ask CCP and keep it fresh in their minds that something must be done... - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Redpants Gallente Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2007.11.29 06:10:00 - [10] Having lived in the R3 pipe for awhile I'll back up what Lowanaera has to say about CVA's stance on the macro's in that region. However, and that said, I will add that the situation down there has been beyond control like no other part of this galaxy I've flown through. This is my experience only, but doesn't dimish the fact that down there it's bad, real bad. Without neccesitating this going to the COAD section, I personaly believe that while CVA's stance on the macro infestation is politically correct for EVE in the confines of the politics, it ultimately does a disservice to the game. The area has its intel channels, people already link macros and the regulars know who's who. I see no reason to not fire on them out of principle, not in game politics. I think CVA should reconsider looking at their policy. That said I have petitioned a couple of them before as "confirmed" macros. I never recieved a Dev response nor did I expect one, just trying to help them as I'm under the impression they're on the hunt for these types of players and banning accounts accordingly. I think the macro situation be them haulers, or miners or mission runners is serious and if it's not being addressed seriously, currently, then it ought to be as they seem to be noticably affecting the economy. I might like to hear the good Dr.'s input on that one. "My once immaculate white pants are now stained from the weak and innocent. I don't wear red."
C Black Gallente BLACK CARTEL	Posted - 2007.11.29 06:33:00 - [11] Edited by: C Black on 29/11/2007 06:34:41 Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 29/11/2007 04:46:43 So CVA actually condones macro-farming or what? Maybe you should reconsider your standings if you have a problem with the macrohaulers? However you can go to Loes or Jovainnon and its the same there. Its been posted 100 times so its pretty old news. Just shoot them when you are bored and no one wants to fight you. Its a nice distraction for an hour or two. Sometimes they (the farmers) get angry and field some battleships and such. That can be fun. I found of of the corps you can war dec and kill their profits. Annua is about 20 plus corp and you can see where they have transfered money to " the eggs ". Do a show contracts and you can play follow the money transfer. I am waiting for the War dec to start now and going to test out what they can do. I got my a nice little ishkur that is going to test them out. If you look on the second list you will see what other corps are doing the same. C Black "if you are not helping out against them...then you are part of the problem" the second Corp that i am about to war dec is OPENE.... Making new sign curently....Look back later...i am working on something cool... Looking for all old friend of Wishsong Corp. eVe Mail me. C Black
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.29 06:41:00 - [12] There is no need to re-evaluate any NRDS policy in the Misaba area. The fact of the matter is that the policy has to be a black and white issue. The second you make "gray" areas and you will just end up with trouble. Second, unless you can prove that no one is at the helm of the industrial ship it isn't a macro hauler. If a GM starts a convo and the supposed "macro" responds then there is nothing anyone can do as they aren't considered a "macro". Running constant hauling missions isn't against any rule, only having a 3rd party program is against the rules. Likewise goes for mining or ratting. Might as well start killing every regular mission runner doing lvl 4's over and over again as they rank in the same category. Third, misaba and the other low sec areas are all LOW SEC which means you take a security hit for each kill. Regain those standing losses are painful processes. If you become an outlaw in CVA space you are generally considered a fair target for everyone regardless of how you ended up there. Finally, its pretty sad how many people would like to go out of their way to try and take down "macros" or some other easy gank, but when enemies show up all of the sudden it all goes quiet. 30 people will talk smack in citadel but maybe 3 will show up for a fleet action. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Lowanaera Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 29/11/2007 04:46:43 So CVA actually condones macro-farming or what? Maybe you should reconsider your standings if you have a problem with the macrohaulers? We operate NRDS and require it of all those living in our space and neighboring low-sec pipes. When people go shooting the macroers, they end up killing legitimate non-macro NPC-corp members as well, so we've forbidden it. Additionally, when pirate corps have infested a local system in force and killed hundreds of them, it has had no apparent effect, so I'm not sure changing our policy would accomplish anything anyway. We are firmly anti-macro, but burning all our sec status for no effect and with a high risk of taking out innocent bystanders is unacceptable and pointless. This man is right... I spent most of yesterday evening in Kheram (on the macroers) route... Sure you get some legitimate hauler traffic but the BULK is clearly macroers. I sat at the gates for a while and there was a constant flow of these macroers - sometimes with up to five of them on gate at any one time. CVA pilots have reported this problem to CCP on several occasions and CCP has done nothing on this I am afraid. The fact is that if CCP were serious about tackling macroers all they would need to do is spend one evening sitting in either Kheram or Mamet (or the systems in between) and they would have +100 names to investigate! At one stage last night Mamet (not exactly one of EVE's most famous hubs) had over 100 people in it - with the majority being these mission hauling loot macroers. This really does need to be looked into... ------------------------------
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:03:00 - [14] Please, try to clarify to yourselves the difference between macro and sweatshosp and avoid using the terms as if they where interchangeable. Almost certanly there is no macro involved in the haulers movement (with exclusion of EVE autopilot). There is simply a guy/gal in a sweatshop somewhere in the world that ask for a mission, load the cargo, set autopilot for the destination, and start the voyage, to then repeat the procedure for another account and another and another. This kind of procedure don't require any macro and is not an EULA violation (probably there is a account sharing and that is an EULA violation, but it is hard to prove), so CCP will not do anything (rightly) untill they can prove the characters are part of a isk selling group. I can simpatize with the frustration of people seeing this kind of behavior but CCP could do nothing without disregarding its own rules, not a good idea.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Venkul Mul Almost certanly there is no macro involved in the haulers movement (with exclusion of EVE autopilot). How do you know? The more hauling runs a single sweatshop worker can do at a time the higher the profit. If you are a sweatshop guy you won't really care about eula and such as you gonna break it anyway when making real money out of the isks. So, in that case why would you not use macros? Originally by: Venkul Mul There is simply a guy/gal in a sweatshop somewhere in the world that ask for a mission, load the cargo, set autopilot for the destination, and start the voyage, to then repeat the procedure for another account and another and another. Yeah, or its simply 10 guys who all do 10 hauling runs a time and who rat with 10 ravens all at the same time - with the help of macros? For the sweatshop its beneficial to use the smallest necessary manpower to do the work. So if a computer program helps them - why would they not use it? They don't play the game as such and don't need to fear a ban like a regular player. Originally by: Venkul Mul This kind of procedure don't require any macro and is not an EULA violation (probably there is a account sharing and that is an EULA violation, but it is hard to prove), so CCP will not do anything (rightly) untill they can prove the characters are part of a isk selling group. No one is suggesting they should be banned just for doing a courier mission multiple times. However suspects could be identified and by tracing their contracts/journals etc. i am sure an eula violation could be proved on many occasions. I prefer to believe its too much individual work. A banned account will be replaced by 3 new ones the day after and so on. So, thats probably what keeps them from making big progress imo.
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Keorythe If a GM starts a convo and the supposed "macro" responds then there is nothing anyone can do as they aren't considered a "macro". I'm new to this game but if i am reading this correctly and this is CCP way of proving a macro then I have an issue. If I get a badger and afk indy mine in high sec space while I do RL stuff then I am not breaaking the EULA. I am not using third-party program and not a macro but I would not respond to GM. I don't see how CCP could use this as a legitimate strategy so either you are talking nonsense or lots of ppl will be getting bans! If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
Barbaro55a Caldari Amesha Spentaz Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Barasu I have thought of blowing em all up and selling haulers on market for rediculus prices but so far I haven't done it. Thinking if I blow em all up after I have bought every hauler on the market and put em back up for 100% increase in cost! If you wanna borrow the hauler BPO's i have most of em. Originally by: ISD Valorem If someone has hurt you out of game then please talk to family, friends or Police (if necessary)
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Phiberoptick macro haulers are EVERYWHERE, seriously there is a lot they are at least a third of the population during off-peak hours. CCP knows about it, and ccp could end it all tomorrow; they want their business more than anything.
0000 Anti'Scam'Mechanism	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Mon eemakar I'm new to this game but if i am reading this correctly and this is CCP way of proving a macro then I have an issue. If I get a badger and afk indy mine in high sec space while I do RL stuff then I am not breaaking the EULA. I am not using third-party program and not a macro but I would not respond to GM. I don't see how CCP could use this as a legitimate strategy so either you are talking nonsense or lots of ppl will be getting bans! Or you did not think it out enough. Obviously if the player a GM is monitoring is not doing anything that requires buttons being pressed (mining a single astroid and letting the ore accumulate in the ship cargo hold, orbiting a gate with AB on, autopilot, sitting in a station etc) then he would obviously not take any action. It is only when the GM can see that the player's ship is actually taking commands, yet no one is responding in any language, that he would take action.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:22:00 - [20] To the guy who had a complaint about interchanging Macro haulers and 'sweatshop' haulers... All I have to say is - does it matter? Both types of 'character' detract from the game - Especially when the ISK they make is sold to ISK for real money trading sites etc... I'm actually disgusted if there are 'sweatshops' of poor people trying to make a little real money from what is our much loved 'game'. My heart genuinely breaks if such was the case - It SHOULD be stopped. Yet CCP are seemingly taking no action. It is a shame they make all these improvements like with Trinity, but don't take action to defend their product from these 'exploiters'. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss To the guy who had a complaint about interchanging Macro haulers and 'sweatshop' haulers... All I have to say is - does it matter? Both types of 'character' detract from the game - Especially when the ISK they make is sold to ISK for real money trading sites etc... I'm actually disgusted if there are 'sweatshops' of poor people trying to make a little real money from what is our much loved 'game'. My heart genuinely breaks if such was the case - It SHOULD be stopped. Yet CCP are seemingly taking no action. It is a shame they make all these improvements like with Trinity, but don't take action to defend their product from these 'exploiters'. Yes there is a big difference. When people say "CCP does nothing" they are right to protest if the farmers are using macros as it is a EULA violation, if they are a sweatshop it is not violating the EULA unless they sell isk or share the account. It can be distasteful but per se it is not a EULA violation. To use a borderline example, there is a corp that some time ago was selling shares in the market forum. They were training something like 60 R&D characters to farm datacores. For sure those characters are somewhere in EVE running hauling missions to get standing, almost certainly they have stupid names and they run most of the day (so it is easy to think they are macros). But, instead of selling isk to E-BAY they give isk to the shareholders in the corporation . That make it a perfectly legitimate activity within the rules of the game. From outside it is difficult to see if the activity the OP is monitoring is really a macro or not and (if it is not a macro ) if it is violating the EULA. In any on line game farming can't be prohibited unless all the items are free, but that will make EVE meaningless. About the interchangeability between the terms macro, sweatshops and farmers often used in the forum I find it very disturbing as they are very different thing and calling people farming macro is only a easy system to rouse the people against them and getting easy excuses for what in reality is only a form of ganking. Yesterday I was speaking with a guy that was saying "I will hunt macros for you" in local. When I asked "How will you recognize the macros" his reply was crystal clear: "Macro are those I are paid to kill". His use of the word "macro" was only not to say in local "I will kill for isk". Calling his targets macro was used as a system to reduce the chance of someone trying to help the targets.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Venkul Mul When people say "CCP does nothing" they are right to protest if the farmers are using macros as it is a EULA violation, if they are a sweatshop it is not violating the EULA unless they sell isk or share the account. It can be distasteful but per se it is not a EULA violation. Sorry mate but you're not convincing me by quoting the rules at me. What other purpose would you have a 'sweatshop' for other than to make real money from ISK? It is all too clear that whether they are real persons in a 'sweatshop' hauler environment, a macro script - whatever...The ISK IS going to 'ISK for real money trading sites' that are spamming the inboxes of most of us. Be as pedantic as you want about the terminology and call them what the hell you like... 'Sweatshop' haulers, Macroers, scripts - It doesn't really matter. What matters is the fact is that these guys ARE blatantly there to farm ISK for real money sale which is breaching the EULA. You're correct in pointing out there's a marked difference between such people, and those farming ISK legitimately using alt datacore researchers etc...I know this. The former exploiting CCP's game to make real money from players of the game, and the latter simply advancing themselves WITHIN game thanks to their real world money being handed to CCP for multiple accounts (which benefits us all in the long run). I'm a mind reader - your next argument is likely to be "PROVE IT! Prove the Mamet haulers are breaking the EULA..." Well what I'm saying (Yes I'm the OP) is that it is NOT my job or our job as players to prove these haulers are selling ISK - it is CCP's. CCP 'should' be resolving this serious problem pro-actively, at the source, by investigating (and banning) these people in such ISK farming operations. But current evidence shows that in Domain - they simply are NOT doing it since the numbers of these farming macros / sweatshop haulers whatever... is increasing along with the mailbox spam. I'd like CCP to reassure us they are working on it; that they have a plan; they recognise the problem; or even the steps they are taking steps to combat this... More than just telling people not to buy ISK since that is obviously not working. But so far so little has been said by CCP on the issue. Hopefully my post will catch the eye of someone at CCP and remind them of this issue. I also hope this clears up the argument for you Venkul Mul, and you'll realise that my terminology is less important than my message. Cheers. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:38:00 - [23] That exactly my point, and what most poster don't really want. They want vigilante justice. "It seem a macro I should have the right to kill it without consequences". Sorry if you feel that banding all this kind of arguments together and disliking them I have wronged you, but that is why I hate the "macro" threads. Most player are totally uninterested if the target is doing a legitimate activity or not, "macro, macro" is only a rally cry. About citing the rules, they are very important. If CCP don't follow them, even for seemingly good reasons, they open a can of worms. When someone start bending his rules "for the good" it is easy for him to loose sight of the good and bending them because he can. So I prefer if CCP err on the side of caution when dealing with suspected EULA violations. Even for a GM is not easy to recognize a macro or a sweatshop from some legitimate player using autopilot a lot and multiple account at the same time Signalling the possible violations to CCP is good, trying to coerce them to do something as "they are doing nothing, bad CCP" is not good. Again it is vigilante action, were someone take justice in his hand and decide what is right or wrong from his limited prospective. My point is that we can't know if what we see and to us seem a sweatshop or macro is really that or some legitimate activity like the corporation I cited above (and from my prospective that corp is a sweatshop, one that gather isk to buy GTC, but isn't an EULA violation). So, again, we should petition suspected activities, but not persecute the people that we suspect.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.11.29 23:01:00 - [24] Aeschee - Melmaniel area is the same. Last time I was there, the local pirates weren't even bothering to shoot them. Logoffs
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2007.11.29 23:39:00 - [25] ingunn and orfrold. Over 180 locals in ingunn and hundreds in the surrounding systems? How do i know they are macros? because 10ths at the same time warp in at 0 km. Autopilot drops you at 15km. Well programmed macros drop you at 0 km. And you want to defend these people? Why? They are killing the game. They use programs to make money for them. So they can sell it to your enemies for real money. It is not fair that my enemie can take some money from his wallet and change it for isk. Especially with the current prices. What is worse is that most of these accounts are paid accounts and they are not being banned. Even though it is so extremely obvious! I know that it isn't ccp's strategy any longer to just ban random characters but rather remove the isk that is bought. But it just sux balls that the gates are lighting up more than they are off. You say: how can you know if they are really macro-ers.... I say: how can you not know!
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.30 05:56:00 - [26] Edited by: Keorythe on 30/11/2007 05:57:12 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I'm actually disgusted if there are 'sweatshops' of poor people trying to make a little real money from what is our much loved 'game'. My heart genuinely breaks if such was the case Actually those guys are paid pretty well for what they make as noted in several articles done on the subject. Many are between 18-mid 20's and treat it as a regular job for college money. So here's a plug to stop your heart from bleeding all of the carpet. This is EvE, we got no room for sympathy..even if its misplaced. Quote: How do i know they are macros? because 10ths at the same time warp in at 0 km. Autopilot drops you at 15km. Well programmed macros drop you at 0 km. Again, if someone is at the helm then they dont need a marco to jump to 0km. Sweatshop or not its still a legitimate thing to do. The only thing CCP can do is check logs and see if the money is congregating in one spot. But its too easy to launder ISK to make it look legit. On top of that, the GM's who are already swamped with petitions daily would have to do some serious log checking while they are already stretched thin. So while GM's do the investigating which might not prove anything your petitions are backed up. How long is the wait now? A day? Week? Month? Don't even want to get into the expected caseload coming next month with Trinity. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Grapez Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Lowanaera We are firmly anti-macro, but burning all our sec status for no effect and with a high risk of taking out innocent bystanders is unacceptable and pointless. This. After living near Loes/Joviannon for nearly all my time in Eve, I've given up shooting at the macro haulers. It's not fun, it has no long-term effect, and it kills my own ability to run missions (via corp standing losses). I would hope that the GM's have taken notice, and covertly watch the wallets of these guys in order to catch ISK buyers and root out the ISK selling groups. By allowing macro players to exist, it might be easier for CCP to track the illicit flow of ISK, but somehow I doubt that's what the GM's are doing.
Firane 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:13:00 - [28] Edited by: Firane on 30/11/2007 06:13:56 Simple answer to why CCP has not and won't do anything in the future: CCP are scared to start banning ISK farmers because they are scared of just how much damage it will do to their bottom line. But the irony is that the same thing that makes their wallets 'fat' now (lol, 300k accounts?), is the thing that will be the downfall of Eve. How many games has it happened to already. To many to name. Wake up, fools, before its too late. -----

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