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Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 13:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Outline of Argument
Rivals should co-operate to maximise outcomes for both parties - that is the conclusion of Game Theory, a mathematical method used in economics to solve business problems in markets.
Red vs Blue Precedent.
The reason Red vs Blue works so well for pvp is that the two corporations co-operate even though they are fighting each other. A common, loose agreement is made which both sides work within. This maximises chances for friendly combat and ensures players achieve their goals without wasting time or other valuable resources.
Faction militia problems
The problems within each of the faction militias are the same whether it is Gallente, Caldari etc. The solution to these problems is not to re-organise the militias, which is an endless process. The solution is for the rival militias to set down some kind of combat agreement which allows both sides to achieve their goals and fight within a certain framework.
Limited Resources
Most EVE players work or study, and do not enjoy the problems of fleet fights that never happen, or organisational complexity due to randomness or other frustrations.
All sides will reduce these costs to themselves, without giving any advantage to the enemy, if they make mutual agreements and work together at the leadership level to ensure smooth combat operations occur with minimal cost and disruption to their player's time and energy. |

Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
48
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Posted - 2012.02.01 14:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think you're overlooking one key element, that is, the fragmentation within each faction. Collaboration between parties only works if each party pursues it as a unified effort. At this point, this just will not happen. ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |

Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
119
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 14:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Also Caldari and Amarr are just wrong. They should surrender. Then we can all move on to concerning every thing else. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 14:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fidelium Mortis wrote:I think you're overlooking one key element, that is, the fragmentation within each faction. Collaboration between parties only works if each party pursues it as a unified effort. At this point, this just will not happen.
Game theory can be applied to any group of agents who are in competition with each other, so it works at the level of small sub-groups and individuals.
Agreements between small groups of players who are enemies, but who know what they are doing, may well be more effective than investing energy into building co-operation between friendly forces who are incompetent.
|

Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
107
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 15:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Asking for the Militia to change and suit what you just stated is like having a celebrity ask for the "Media" to stop reporting bad news on her. "The Media" is essentially a generic word that holds no organization accountable for the reporting of news. Thus, the habits of The Media will never change.
Like "The Media", "The Militia" is made up of many corporations and entities with their own agenda and interests. Those agenda conflict with each other. Trying to get all or most of the corporations to see eye to eye on this issue is an endless process unto itself. Thus, "The Militia" cannot really be held accountable for anything. Be that lack of organization, endless blobbing, or FOTM accusations.
Be careful about referencing RvB as precedent. RvB does have great success if you want a controlled environment. But many people avoid it because it is considered contrived.
Appreciate the idea though. Apparently, once you create a sig. You can't completely delete it. So this is my sig...for now. |

Lyrka Bloodberry
Spybeaver
63
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 15:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Liberty Eternal wrote:Fidelium Mortis wrote:I think you're overlooking one key element, that is, the fragmentation within each faction. Collaboration between parties only works if each party pursues it as a unified effort. At this point, this just will not happen. Game theory can be applied to any group of agents who are in competition with each other, so it works at the level of small sub-groups and individuals. Agreements between small groups of players who are enemies, but who know what they are doing, may well be more effective than investing energy into building co-operation between friendly forces who are incompetent.
Effective in which way? How do you measure this effectiveness? You are not even pointing out the problems you propose a solution for. In addition you do not state how the problems you want to solve with FW are comparable to those economic applications you use game theory for.
Plus: "May well be more effective..." is a sentence without content. Of course it is true that it MAY be more effective, but it may also be more effective if rivaling parties do not cooperate. As I said: It is highly depending on how you measure effectiveness.
So why don't you just try again by properly describing your problem setup, then stating how game theory is applicable in this setup and then actually applying it? Or point out how somebody applied it to a certain problem and make clear how this application is directly transferable to your own problem setup. Spybeaver |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 15:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Asking for the Militia to change and suit what you just stated is like having a celebrity ask for the "Media" to stop reporting bad news on her.
Like "The Media", "The Militia" is made up of many corporations and entities with their own agenda and interests. Those agenda conflict with each other. Trying to get all or most of the corporations to see eye to eye on this issue is an endless process unto itself.
Be careful about referencing RvB as precedent. RvB does have great success if you want a controlled environment. But many people avoid it because it is considered contrived.
Appreciate the idea though.
Thank-you for the input. I think that two rival "militias" don't need to be thought of as 2 uniform, rival agents operating under a universal set of principles in order for players to benefit from enhanced co-operation across faction lines. Agreements can be local and temporary and would arise from communication as the first step in the process of removing avoidable costs.
So you are correct that a simplistic and uniform approach will not work, but a more nuanced and flexible form of cross-faction communication might work in different situations.
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:Effective in which way? How do you measure this effectiveness?
I would suggest that the elimination of "avoidable costs" would be the best measure of effectiveness. In particular, the cost of time wasted because rival faction units are not co-ordinating their ops in the same time or battle space.
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:You are not even pointing out the problems you propose a solution for. In addition you do not state how the problems you want to solve with FW are comparable to those economic applications you use game theory for.
The same economic costs apply to military operations - wasted resources through avoidable duplication of tasks [such as mutual patrolling] or redundant tasks that inflict costs without rewards [time spent forming up for a battle that doesn't happen].
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:Plus: "May well be more effective..." is a sentence without content. Of course it is true that it MAY be more effective, but it may also be more effective if rivaling parties do not cooperate. As I said: It is highly depending on how you measure effectiveness.
So why don't you just try again by properly describing your problem setup, then stating how game theory is applicable in this setup and then actually applying it? Or point out how somebody applied it to a certain problem and make clear how this application is directly transferable to your own problem setup.
There are a potentially infinite number of problem setups, but any situation where both sides are undertaking a mutual and avoidable cost for no reason is one which could benefit from co-operation to eliminate the complexity that is inflicting the cost. |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Double Post |

Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
22
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 16:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Not fighting would be more effective than fighting .... I do not think your idea is gonna work here ;-) Lets just kill amarr. |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 16:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Not fighting would be more effective than fighting ....
Is that because one side is much stronger than the other?
If it is, then FW is different to standard wargames - in a standard wargame, overwhelming strength gives advantage and leads to victory. But in EVE, one side does not have to fight and so overwhelming strength simply stops the fighting.
If both sides have a mutual interest in continuing the fighting, why not just agree common terms so that the problem of strength imbalance can be corrected, and the side that does not want to fight will be willing to come out and resume the fighting?
I am making an assumption though - that both sides want to fight. Therefore, any break in the fighting can be considered as a wasted opportunity. If my assumption is correct, then overwhelming strength is a problem to both sides [including the side that has the strength], to be corrected by mutual terms of agreement, as strength cannot be exploited as a continuous advantage beyond a certain limit. |

Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 18:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Liberty Eternal wrote:Tenris Anis wrote:Not fighting would be more effective than fighting .... Is that because one side is much stronger than the other? .
I'm surprised you don't know the answer. But yes. Gallente outnumbers Caldari greatly at the moment. Minmatar and Amarr tend to be equal.
What is your motivation for starting this thread? Apparently, once you create a sig. You can't completely delete it. So this is my sig...for now. |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 19:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:I'm surprised you don't know the answer. But yes. Gallente outnumbers Caldari greatly at the moment. Minmatar and Amarr tend to be equal.
I wasn't certain if he was alluding to something else [maybe that it is better not to fight at all, than to negotiate with an enemy].
Deen Wispa wrote:What is your motivation for starting this thread?
Curiosity. I would like to know if FW players are pursuing sub-optimal war-fighting [or wargaming] strategies and if so, why? |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 19:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
double post |

Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous
46
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Posted - 2012.02.01 20:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
It was like this a little bit about a year+ ago, when LateNite and Predator Elite would just convo each other to see where each other was and roughly what they were in. A lot more fighting happened back then with several engagements per night. vOv Was more fun, too, imo; instead of this stupid "okay, lets go absolutely crush them with everything we've got" mentality which doesn't engender a lot of :goodfights: |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 21:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Except were in some of your examples if someone doesn't follow the pre arranged standards a person can be removed, they can't just simple be removed from your faction in FW. You could do other things of course to try to control the behavior of others but ultimatly you'll just end up with more infighting among factions.
Basically the precedents used have some mitigating function available to use on players who don't follow the "rules". What you suggest does not, nor are many of the possible ways to mitigate it reasonable. Ultimatly you're left with this whole thread of thoughts that rely not only on a majority but more like 95%+ of each faction to for no reason other than some moral or social obligation follow any of this. This is Eve we are talking about....
Edit: Not to say none of this could be done or has been done etc, just that it has alot of potential to not work. |

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
84
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 21:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:It was like this a little bit about a year+ ago, when LateNite and Predator Elite would just convo each other to see where each other was and roughly what they were in. A lot more fighting happened back then with several engagements per night. vOv Was more fun, too, imo; instead of this stupid "okay, lets go absolutely crush them with everything we've got" mentality which doesn't engender a lot of :goodfights:
Was same thing about 6 months ago with Caldari & Gallente. Most of the larger fleet fights were semi arranged to an extent so there was a lot of decent fights among the gangs. Now it's just back to this side ganks some random targets then the other side ganks a target. Not really much gangs fighting gangs at the moment.
|

Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 22:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Liberty- I don't think it's impossible to have both sides (or a few corps from both sides) come to a mutual understanding and terms of engagement. For example, you could have a sort of Frig Friday for militia members or some variation of that. This would benefit many folks especially the newbs who are trying to learn . FCs and vets will have more experienced pilots coming with them on fights knowing that they won't have as many fail fits.
As for the wargaming concept. It does exist with plexes. Each plex can only allow a certain size ship so an enemy militia will take their gang in knowing that the opposition can only bring a certain size too. If you look up some of the current FW threads, numerous people have chimed in saying how plexes can be improved upon to encourage more balanced fights and pvp.
The key to accomplish what you suggest is for each side to acknowledge it's useless to point fingers at "The Militia". It's a generic word with no accountability. Instead, it would be more helpful if individual corps reached out to other corps of the opposition and see if terms of engagement can be agreed upon.
Everyone benefits especially the constant influx of newbs who are in general militia and have no clue as to what they're doing. It's nice to know if CCP can fix FW, but I don't see a reason why current members cannot try to work together to create a more healthy FW environment. From the senior burned out FC, to the jaded vet, to the complete noob, everyone wins.
Otherwise, might be best to just troll each other on forum once a week . C'est la Eve. Apparently, once you create a sig. You can't completely delete it. So this is my sig...for now. |

Ehn Roh
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 23:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
OP, mutually agreed rules in combat arise when both side think that the rule will cover a weakness they have, but that adhering to it themselves will not get in the way of winning.
Classic example, the Geneva Conventions.
This is generally not going to happen in EVE.
Terms of engagement are precisely what we DO NOT need for more FW - you can currently arrange fights on whatever terms you like all day long with can flagging or whatever you want. People aren't doing this now, therefore they're not going to do this.
More people will engage in FW if there is not only more reward, but more consistent rewards that draw people out of lowsec and nullsec- which is generally where the PvPers are. It's not exactly convenient to drop things and head in or jumpclone just for some dog and pony games.
The biggest problem is that the FW flagging mechanics are way too optional for any large amount of pew-pew to happen. You'd have FW all day long if you forced people to (after a nooby period) choose a noobcorp in a faction, a corp in a faction, or an alliance, and adjust ROE in empire to order. But that will never happen.
|

Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 02:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:Also Caldari and Amarr are just wrong. They should surrender. Then we can all move on to concerning every thing else.
From an RP perspective, we both know that the Caldari would rather go bankrupt and the Amarr would rather commit heresy than surrender to their respective enemies. |

fgft Athonille
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 04:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
red vs blue doesnt work. everyday people leave in tears and cry at each other
its filled with more crie babbies per capita than any other sector of spcqe |

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
85
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 11:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ehn Roh wrote:
Terms of engagement are precisely what we DO NOT need for more FW - you can currently arrange fights on whatever terms you like all day long with can flagging or whatever you want. People aren't doing this now, therefore they're not going to do this.
You are actually wrong.. In the past various FC's with-in both Cal & Gal Militias used to talk with each other from time to time and set up semi arranged fights. It wasn't like ok you bring this ship and we bring this one, but more along the lines of saying he we will ship down or reship to match your gang.
I think they used to also agree to not primary each other's FC's in order to let the fights last for a bit but this part didn't always happen with them all. In fact Im' pretty sure some of them used to share a joint channel in order to get the fights rolling a bit faster as well as to team up from time to time to high a large target. (ie temp blue each other)
While on one hand it tends to cheapen up the PVP but on another hand they were typically some of the better fights as each side was typically pretty evenly matched. |

Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 13:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Idea of fw is to have fights, but some militias have adopted tactics that it is better to avoid fights and just gank noobs or lonely travelers.
Co-operating with such people is just waste of time. |

Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 13:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:Also Caldari and Amarr are just wrong. They should surrender. Then we can all move on to concerning every thing else. From an RP perspective, we both know that the Caldari would rather go bankrupt and the Amarr would rather commit heresy than surrender to their respective enemies.
We can work on that, I have no problem with Caldari going bankrupt. And Amarr heresy sounds like something possitive anyway ... we should work on that. |

Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 13:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Liberty Eternal wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:I'm surprised you don't know the answer. But yes. Gallente outnumbers Caldari greatly at the moment. Minmatar and Amarr tend to be equal. I wasn't certain if he was alluding to something else [maybe that it is better not to fight at all, than to negotiate with an enemy].
If you base your conclusions on game theory than yes, no fight is better than negotiate how to best waste resources with an enemy, who becomes than anyway a partner and not an real enemy.
Furthermore cooperative behavior leads to more resources for all, but sociopathic behavior will not only decrease your own resources, but will decrease resources of your enemys even more. So if we are locking from a war perspective on this, its better not to cooperate but instead actually try to gain significant advantages over the enemy militia. Will this lead to less battles? Sure, but actually the "goal" in faction warfare is not to fight as much as you can, but actually to fight not anymore because you secured all resources for your own militia / faction.
What you are trying to achieve is to change faction warfare to something all do enjoy more, without changing the game mechanics. It is a honorable try, but why not just use red vs blue for this? If you are locking for pre-arranged battles, I am pretty sure red vs blue can offer this to you. |

Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
132
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 14:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Furthermore cooperative behavior leads to more resources for all, but sociopathic behavior will not only decrease your own resources, but will decrease resources of your enemys even more.
Wait a moment. Are you actually saying that people in Eve (in every war theater) should not, rightly I might add, consider their opponents as sub-human pieces of s..t and give them some measure of respect?
You are playing altogether wrong game here.... |

Ehn Roh
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 17:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Ehn Roh wrote:
Terms of engagement are precisely what we DO NOT need for more FW - you can currently arrange fights on whatever terms you like all day long with can flagging or whatever you want. People aren't doing this now, therefore they're not going to do this.
You are actually wrong.. In the past various FC's with-in both Cal & Gal Militias used to talk with each other from time to time and set up semi arranged fights. It wasn't like ok you bring this ship and we bring this one, but more along the lines of saying he we will ship down or reship to match your gang. I think they used to also agree to not primary each other's FC's in order to let the fights last for a bit but this part didn't always happen with them all. In fact Im' pretty sure some of them used to share a joint channel in order to get the fights rolling a bit faster as well as to team up from time to time to high a large target. (ie temp blue each other) While on one hand it tends to cheapen up the PVP but on another hand they were typically some of the better fights as each side was typically pretty evenly matched.
They "used to". As in, now they don't. This simply shows what I'm talking about.
The sort of fighting you get in, sayt, a 32 vs 32 FPS game where there are no lasting consequences is not sustainable in EVE when the "rules" are optional. All it takes is one group refusing to play by whatever rules you come up with and it's doomed to failure.
There are lasting consequences in-game for this stuff, so people are going to take any advantage they can get. Ultimately it's going nowhere because people on the sides lacking momentum can and will simply 'opt out'. FW is just an elaborate multi-party dueling system with nothing keeping participants from just blobbing it up, which seems to be what people don't want.
Optional PvP flagging always ends up like this because not enough people will do it. Perhaps a simple solution for this would be to pay militia pilots for time spent flagged and undocked - a stipend. I think a lot of noobs would be willing to take the risk for a million or two ISK a week. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 18:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ehn Roh wrote: The sort of fighting you get in, sayt, a 32 vs 32 FPS game where there are no lasting consequences is not sustainable in EVE when the "rules" are optional. All it takes is one group refusing to play by whatever rules you come up with and it's doomed to failure.
There are lasting consequences in-game for this stuff, so people are going to take any advantage they can get. Ultimately it's going nowhere because people on the sides lacking momentum can and will simply 'opt out'. FW is just an elaborate multi-party dueling system with nothing keeping participants from just blobbing it up, which seems to be what people don't want.
Optional PvP flagging always ends up like this because not enough people will do it. Perhaps a simple solution for this would be to pay militia pilots for time spent flagged and undocked - a stipend. I think a lot of noobs would be willing to take the risk for a million or two ISK a week.
Basically this, your example of the fps scenario describes much better what I was going for before.
As to the stipend... I would foresee many cloaked undocked ships sitting about :P |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 20:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread.
What I'm taking away so far is that the FW scene is complex in terms of its organisation, goals, resources and behaviours. There are different sets of expectations and values which players do not always share in common and which may be competing or even incompatible.
So perhaps this means that there are a wide variety of sub-games within the overall FW wargame which require a nuanced approach to understand, each within their own context.
Vordak Kallager wrote:It was like this a little bit about a year+ ago, when LateNite and Predator Elite would just convo each other to see where each other was and roughly what they were in. A lot more fighting happened back then with several engagements per night. vOv Was more fun, too, imo; instead of this stupid "okay, lets go absolutely crush them with everything we've got" mentality which doesn't engender a lot of :goodfights:
Thanks for this post - that confirms one of my expectations about co-operating to increase payoffs - namely, that it is communication and informal understandings between key rival decision-makers with some shared goals that drives the discovery of more efficient strategies. This ad hoc approach is likely to be far more pragmatic than any rule-based agreement.
Outz Xacto wrote:Except were in some of your examples if someone doesn't follow the pre arranged standards a person can be removed, they can't just simple be removed from your faction in FW. You could do other things of course to try to control the behavior of others but ultimatly you'll just end up with more infighting among factions.
Given those conditions, a formal rule system would probably be as difficult to make and enforce as the original complexity it is designed to overcome. Although communication and awareness of the types of games that will result from certain behaviours could change the strategies that fleets and their commanders pursue, even without a formal agreement.
Deen Wispa wrote:Liberty- I don't think it's impossible to have both sides (or a few corps from both sides) come to a mutual understanding and terms of engagement. For example, you could have a sort of Frig Friday for militia members or some variation of that. This would benefit many folks especially the newbs who are trying to learn . FCs and vets will have more experienced pilots coming with them on fights knowing that they won't have as many fail fits.
Another value to maximise is the introduction, training and retention of new militia members. This is a goal that is common to all militia groups and therefore it should be in their interests to pursue its maximisation if a co-operative strategy can do that.
Ehn Roh wrote:OP, mutually agreed rules in combat arise when both side think that the rule will cover a weakness they have, but that adhering to it themselves will not get in the way of winning.
Classic example, the Geneva Conventions.
Thanks, that's very much a classic example. The solution to this problem would be to reduce the costs and risks of any agreement while increasing the benefits. This means that certain types of agreements will have the potential to work in certain situations, while others will not. While a Universal set of principles might be unenforcible, there could be considerable benefit from specific, local agreements based on mutually shared goals.
Tenris Anis wrote:So if we are locking from a war perspective on this, its better not to cooperate but instead actually try to gain significant advantages over the enemy militia. Will this lead to less battles? Sure, but actually the "goal" in faction warfare is not to fight as much as you can, but actually to fight not anymore because you secured all resources for your own militia / faction.
But can this goal ever be achieved? FW is a continuous wargame, is it not? There is no finite victory condition that allows a final outright victory. That being the case, it seems inherently pointless to consider a final strategic goal - let alone to prioritise said goal to the detriment of goals at the tactical level. It seems the sense of victory can only come by a continuous series of tactical victories and this requires continuous combat operations and therefore a logic of tactics dominating strategy.
Dammit, limited to 5 quotes per post 
"The sort of fighting you get in, sayt, a 32 vs 32 FPS game where there are no lasting consequences is not sustainable in EVE when the "rules" are optional. All it takes is one group refusing to play by whatever rules you come up with and it's doomed to failure. " Ehn Roh
Is there a reason why you can't choose to run multiple game types within a broader context? Every strategic decision made is going to lead to one type of game or another - perhaps awareness of the type of game that will result from a decision will influence both sides to reconsider it and to co-operate if they share a mutual desire to avoid that type of game in favour of another type? |

Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
111
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 20:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Do you always talk like this?  Apparently, once you create a sig. You can't completely delete it. So this is my sig...for now. |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
23
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 20:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Do you always talk like this? 
No, but I often write like it. I apologise if my style is tedious  |
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