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Jacinda Molanth
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:37:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Lyra Garris
Edited by: Lyra Garris on 02/12/2007 15:30:06
Suppose all the Minmatar were freed. Right now. And the Amarr Empire refused to take any of them; they were all your problem. What would happen?
The Republic wouldn't be able to handle it. It can barely support itself right now let alone after its population more than doubles overnight. The Republic would collapse and anarchy would reign, as there wouldn't be enough resources, food, or even living space for everybody.
The Federation would refuse to take them. Federal politicians are elected after all, and they would want nothing to do with a voting bloc bigger than their allied empire suddenly descending upon their space - They'd all get voted out of office! The Gallente working class wouldn't want it either, as these new Minmatar would be taking their jobs away and consigning them to ruin.
The Caldari might take them but it would be slavery all over again, only economic instead of physical. Even then, the Caldari business machine can't possibly support that much labor, the bulk of it unskilled.
Who would win? The pirates. The major pirate factions are the only ones who can possibly use that much manpower that quickly, and they would get the resources they need by stealing it from the Republic, the Federation, and the State. The Angel Cartel, the Guristas Pirates, the Serpentis Corporation. Billions of Matari would turn into criminals, pirates, drug addicts and dealers, murderers, and yes, slaves. Is that really what you want for your people?
Your quest for freedom only blinds you to the reality of Amarrian benevolence. Even if faith and God had nothing to do with it, the logistics of the situation demand it. The Amarr Empire is the only law-abiding government that CAN take care of the Minmatar slaves. That we also educate them, clothe them, feed them, nurture them, give them health care, and raise them out of heathen ways, that is all further proof of Amarrian benevolence that you refuse to acknowledge. That we expect them to do some labor to pay for this should be expected; isn't that exactly how the Caldari State operates? Federation businesses, Republic commerce too? Goods and services for labor? The only difference is that the Amarr, through faith, have done away with the need for money as a medium of exchange to provide for their charges.
Compared to the alternatives, slavery looks more like a public service than an evil to be destroyed.
A flawed argument at best Lyra Garris. I for one, being a capsaleer, earn an inordinate amount of ISK. I am certain that I and many others would happily donate the monies needed to care for our freed kin. The Ushra'Khan for instance would need no more need to buy ships and items for their war against slavery. I am certain, and I would like a UK opinion on this, they would gladly donate most generously with ISK as well as involvement to the rehabilitation of these souls.
Please do not argue that since we could not handle the situation that you will not do it. That argument is extremely flawed.
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Lyra Garris
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:44:00 -
[62]
You fail to grasp my point. My point is not money. Money is no object to a capsuleer. My point is supplies - Money can only buy what supplies exist, it can't create new food, water, and planets out of thin air. Prices for such basic commodities would skyrocket in the event of a universal freedom of the Minmatar because there would be only the same amount of supplies as there are now, but more than twice as many people would need them.
Unless, of course, you are prepared to buy food out of the mouthes of the galaxy's poor to feed your brethren, who are currently being fed quite well right now already because of the Amarrian benevolence you seek to deprive them of. Sounds like you'd be stealing from one starving man to feed another man whose food you denied him.
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Jacinda Molanth
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:50:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Lyra Garris
You fail to grasp my point. My point is not money. Money is no object to a capsuleer. My point is supplies - Money can only buy what supplies exist, it can't create new food, water, and planets out of thin air. Prices for such basic commodities would skyrocket in the event of a universal freedom of the Minmatar because there would be only the same amount of supplies as there are now, but more than twice as many people would need them.
Unless, of course, you are prepared to buy food out of the mouthes of the galaxy's poor to feed your brethren, who are currently being fed quite well right now already because of the Amarrian benevolence you seek to deprive them of. Sounds like you'd be stealing from one starving man to feed another man whose food you denied him.
Then you can clearly see how advantageous the release of all the slaves would be. The only obvious source of foods and supplies needed to care for these people would be bought from the Amarr Empire, since you have them currently. With the sale of these items your economy would swell enough to help your own poor and destitute people. Everyone wins.
Jacinda Molanth
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Lyra Garris
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:55:00 -
[64]
Economic slavery is just slavery with money. Why make a successful system more complicated than it needs to be?
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Dichotomy
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:55:00 -
[65]
So your excuse is "We can't free the slaves! There's no infrastructure to support them!". Whose fault is that? The Amarrians have been worrying at the Minmatar Republic, the Gallente Federation and the Caldari State for centuries now. If, perhaps, you had never enslaved the Minmatar in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue. If, perhaps, you did not constantly raid Federal, Republican and State space for slaves, we could devote more of our resources to building infrastructure.
The Amarrians have created the circumstances in which they can claim to be the only ones capable of keeping slaves safe, but even that's a lie - the crumbling of your borders and events in the Bleak Lands prove that you're no better, and quite probably much worse at controlling your internal affairs than the Minmatar are.
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The views expressed in these posts, while inarguably correct, are not neccessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
I never sleep. I wait. |
Vox Thaal
Minmatar
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:58:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Vox Thaal on 02/12/2007 16:00:09
We may speak volumes of idle words, but in the end the matter is a simple one.
There are no neutrals in Providence. If you do trade there, you are tacitly supporting the power structure which exists, one which profits from the subjugation of our people. You are reaping the tainted fruits of this injustice built upon the coerced labor of others. Whether you profit directly in coin or indirectly via the protection of slavers, by your actions you are in fact saying this is an acceptable situation. It is not.
We have issued a military edict, warning traders as a matter of decency and courtesy. If you choose to operate in Providence, that is your own decision, but you do so at your own risk. We do not desire the ruin of every simple trader who is seeking his fortune in the cluster. It is a vast galaxy full of ample opportunity; we merely encourage you for your own safety to follow your dreams elsewhere.
In Providence, there are only two groups: those who profit from the existence of slavery, and those who actively seek to destroy this odious institution, root and branch. Only the dictates of your personal conscience can determine which group you personally desire to associate with.
While a single man remains in chains, none are truly free.
----
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Lyra Garris
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.02 16:16:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Lyra Garris on 02/12/2007 16:16:12
To Andreus: Because arguing with you is like arguing with a talking rock, I'm simply going to say that without the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar wouldn't even come close to the Minmatar today. They would be too busy fighting and killing each other with rocks and swords without the benefit of exposure to Amarrian technology. Some Minmatar apparently still advocate that sort of behavior, if you read the earlier discussion. As for handling of internal affairs, if you kept up with the news at all, you would know that the Bleak Lands situation is being dealt with with such great strength and rapid speed that people are at a loss to explain it.
To Vox Thaal: If that's how you view the world, you're going to have to kill a lot of your own members who do business in and around the Domain region, often after we have just destroyed their ships and they need replacements. After all, if they did not tacitly support slavery, they would fly back to the Republic to buy genuine Minmatar goods instead of buying goods built in the Empire by slave labor.
For a full list of these people, please contact PIE and we will compile one for you so that you may begin the cleansing of pro-slavery elements from Ushra'Khan immediately.
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Tar Kovsky
Minmatar
Khumatari Holdings
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.02 17:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lyra Garris
Suppose all the Minmatar were freed. Right now. And the Amarr Empire refused to take any of them; they were all your problem. What would happen?
Are you seriously suggesting that the Empire is willing to consider abolishing slavery, and that the only impediment is a few practical considerations? Because the U'K economists have developed several thorough models that show that these issues can be managed.
I might also point out that the Empire itself is quite at risk of starving if its agricultural slaves were to disappear overnight -- though the thought of some fat and sweaty Holder trying to pick crops is quite amusing.
--
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Lyra Garris
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.02 17:27:00 -
[69]
While the Empire is not contemplating freeing the slaves en masse (We know better), I highly doubt that they would lend any credence in any case to some highly-biased economic projections from a group with a massive vested interest in a particular outcome.
To reverse the situation, how would you feel if a Blooder slaver offered to keep a group of Matari children because he had 'good references' that came from other Blooders? Would you do that? Probably not.
I leave this thread to its natural course now, as I get the impression that argument is pointless (Though to be fair I should've known that from the start). You're convinced you're right, I'm convinced I'm right, and we're not going to give. Time to let other people decide who they think is correct, rather than clutter up the transmission further.
And, because you make the mistake of assuming my arguments represent anything more than a simple debate, I'm going to take this opportunity to say this disclaimer: All views expressed by me are my own personal opinion, and are thus subject to change at any time without notice. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views, past, present, and future, of myself, my family, their families, my home planet, my home station, other stations I frequent, my corporation, their allies, the Amarr Empire, any other Empire, the EVE cluster, or God. Thank you.
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Eveliddia
Amarr
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.02 17:35:00 -
[70]
So,
Do you keep records of those who actually live and trade in Providence for your targets? I am sure you are quite aware that many neutral entities fly through Providence only to reach catch or to go even further south. How do you justify the destruction of those pilots and their vessels and or goods. Your argument that anyone in Providence who doesn't help you accomplish what you cannot do yourselves is weak. If you know for fact that pilots are supporters of the CVA or Amarr empire then yes, do as you will, but it is clear that UK has become ravenous and will kill any and all without regard to weather or not they actually support slavery and or CVA.
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Tar Kovsky
Minmatar
Khumatari Holdings
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.02 17:37:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Lyra Garris
To reverse the situation, how would you feel if a Blooder slaver offered to keep a group of Matari children because he had 'good references' that came from other Blooders? Would you do that? Probably not.
You seem quite adept at setting up "straw man" arguments. There is neither ambiguity nor any legitimate parallel to be drawn between the Blooder's goals and ours.
--
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Dichotomy
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.02 17:53:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Lyra Garris
To Andreus: Because arguing with you is like arguing with a talking rock, I'm simply going to say that without the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar wouldn't even come close to the Minmatar today. They would be too busy fighting and killing each other with rocks and swords without the benefit of exposure to Amarrian technology. Some Minmatar apparently still advocate that sort of behavior, if you read the earlier discussion. As for handling of internal affairs, if you kept up with the news at all, you would know that the Bleak Lands situation is being dealt with with such great strength and rapid speed that people are at a loss to explain it.
An utter lie, and a particularly racist one at that - nothing more than simple Amarr propaganda. If you believe it you're even more bereft of intelligence than I thought you were. The Minmatar possessed the greatest subluminal society that ever existed short of the Jove. Their ancestors, the Sleepers, were probably the biggest experts in neural interfacing of their time, even beyond the Jove.
The Minmatar almost created an acceleration gate which could shoot ships between star systems - something that wouldn't rely on the clunky and somewhat insufficient technology of jump gates, which only work with multiple-star-system resonance nodes.
However, the Amarrians ruined it all. If the Minmatar are in any way uncultured or technologically lacking, it's all your fault.
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The views expressed in these posts, while inarguably correct, are not neccessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
I never sleep. I wait. |
Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.02 18:57:00 -
[73]
Quote:
the crumbling of your borders and events in the Bleak Lands prove that you're no better, and quite probably much worse at controlling your internal affairs than the Minmatar are.
If you look at a map of the Empire from three years ago you might noticed a rather interesting trend. I do believe that the empire is larger now, with the addition of the Bleak Lands and Providence, than it was even three years ago.
And this expansion was at the expense of pirates, Sansha, and Blood Raiders. As opposed to the Matari Republic's most recent failed fratricidal expansion attempts against the Ammatar or the rampant success Serpantis has shown in its ability to control Gallente actions. We, at least, haven't let any of our titans get stolen by mere drug peddlers.
The Empire is strong. God is with us.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Dichotomy
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.02 19:22:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 02/12/2007 19:22:16
Ah, Gaven, I haven't heard your animalistic snarls of anger and disapproval for a long time. The fact that the Amarrians couldn't keep the Bleak Lands stable for even three years doesn't surprise me - a classic symptom of biting off more than you can chew. As for Providence, Providence isn't part of the Amarr Empire and CONCORD will never recognise it as such. Besides, considering that CVA is currently overextending itself I don't count on it staying that way for very much longer anyway.
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The views expressed in these posts, while inarguably correct, are not neccessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
I never sleep. I wait. |
Eveliddia
Amarr
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.02 23:49:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Eveliddia
So,
Do you keep records of those who actually live and trade in Providence for your targets? I am sure you are quite aware that many neutral entities fly through Providence only to reach catch or to go even further south. How do you justify the destruction of those pilots and their vessels and or goods. Your argument that anyone in Providence who doesn't help you accomplish what you cannot do yourselves is weak. If you know for fact that pilots are supporters of the CVA or Amarr empire then yes, do as you will, but it is clear that UK has become ravenous and will kill any and all without regard to weather or not they actually support slavery and or CVA.
I am awaiting an answer to this question. Please do not take too long thinking of a reply in which your organization doesn't look foolish. In fact I ask that Karn Mithrala answer this question as he seems to be able to get straight to the point.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 00:20:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Besides, considering that CVA is currently overextending itself I don't count on it staying that way for very much longer anyway.
This theory is finally being put to the test by a qualified opponent.
Now, no objections when we pass with flying colors...
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Dichotomy
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.03 00:42:00 -
[77]
Garreck: Do you consider that Providence will stay in CVA's hands forever? Given the tumultuous state of the south, I highly doubt that it will. I don't neccessarily say it'll end up in the hands of someone better - maybe there will come a time when I longed for the bland, antihuman presence of CVA.
However, I'm willing to take that risk.
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The views expressed in these posts, while inarguably correct, are not neccessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
I never sleep. I wait. |
Michael Bross
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.03 00:56:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Michael Bross on 03/12/2007 00:58:16
Edited by: Michael Bross on 03/12/2007 00:57:16
Originally by: Lyra Garris
Edited by: Lyra Garris on 02/12/2007 16:16:12
I'm simply going to say that without the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar wouldn't even come close to the Minmatar today. They would be too busy fighting and killing each other with rocks and swords without the benefit of exposure to Amarrian technology.
Maybe you need a history lesson Ms. Garris.
21413 AD- The first Minmatar space ship is developed. During the next centuries the Minmatar settle on a number of planets and moons in 3 systems.
22355 AD- The Amarrians arive in the Pator system. They begin raiding the Minmatar Empire for slaves.
22480 AD- The Amarrians invade and conquer the Minmatar Empire.
As far as the discovery of Stargate technology we were but 20 years behind, but with only rocks and swords at hand this appears to be a much greater achievement. Seems to me that the Matari people got along just fine in their THOUSAND YEAR STAR SPANNING empire without the intrusion of the Amarr.
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Pezzle
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 01:41:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Pezzle on 03/12/2007 01:42:22
Providence belongs to the Amarr Empire. This is as it should be.
Official recognition has not yet come, but we serve the Empire and so it will come to pass.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Dichotomy
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.03 01:43:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Pezzle
Providence belongs to the Amarr Empire. This is as it should be.
No it doesn't. It belongs to CVA.
Trust me, CONCORD will never approve the transfer of that space to the Empire.
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The views expressed in these posts, while inarguably correct, are not neccessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
I never sleep. I wait. |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 01:52:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Garreck: Do you consider that Providence will stay in CVA's hands forever?
No. I figure at some point some of it will be relinquished to the Amarr Empire. Until that point, sure, I figure CVA will retain its grasp.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Dichotomy
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.03 01:56:00 -
[82]
For the relinquishing to the Amarr Empire, see my above reply to Pezzle.
Pray tell, what would you do if Providence was taken from you, and could not be re-Reclaimed?
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The views expressed in these posts, while inarguably correct, are not neccessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
I never sleep. I wait. |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 02:06:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Pray tell, what would you do if Providence was taken from you, and could not be re-Reclaimed?
Been asked that question for years. I guess we'd have to wait and see if that scenario ever rolls around.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.03 08:24:00 -
[84]
As to the suggestion the galaxy would not be able to handle the sudden release of all the slaves only simple logic need be applied. If a group as resourceful and as industrious as the Matari can support themselves and the Amarr as slaves then they can easily support just themselves as free men. There are many colonies in Republic space alone that have been depopulated by slaver raids and Amarrian bio-weapons that are deperately in need of a population boost.
Infrastructure can be built rapidly when you don't have a peverse need to cover everything in gold. We have proven this many times since the uprising. The fact is that the only people who would suffer from the end of slavery are the Amarr since they are too weak to support themselves.
As for those poor souls claiming to be "just passing through" Providence, this broadcast is a reminder for them. Find another route, prove yourselves to be on the side of freedom or fly through Providence at your own risk.
Leave Providence behind you and you will not be pursued. Continue to profit from the suffering of our people and you will be hunted down.
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Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Exodus.
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Posted - 2007.12.03 10:29:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
As to the suggestion the galaxy would not be able to handle the sudden release of all the slaves only simple logic need be applied. If a group as resourceful and as industrious as the Matari can support themselves and the Amarr as slaves then they can easily support just themselves as free men. There are many colonies in Republic space alone that have been depopulated by slaver raids and Amarrian bio-weapons that are deperately in need of a population boost.
Infrastructure can be built rapidly when you don't have a peverse need to cover everything in gold. We have proven this many times since the uprising. The fact is that the only people who would suffer from the end of slavery are the Amarr since they are too weak to support themselves.
As for those poor souls claiming to be "just passing through" Providence, this broadcast is a reminder for them. Find another route, prove yourselves to be on the side of freedom or fly through Providence at your own risk.
Leave Providence behind you and you will not be pursued. Continue to profit from the suffering of our people and you will be hunted down.
I have a much better idea. How about you find another route and stop attempting to terrorize the passby? However, it seems we won't be able to come to an agreement, so pray the duck tapes hold against salvo after salvo of laser fire.
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Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 10:43:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Pray tell, what would you do if Providence was taken from you, and could not be re-Reclaimed?
Been asked that question for years. I guess we'd have to wait and see if that scenario ever rolls around.
That day will never come unless GOD wills it.
As long as CVA and our allies walk the path of righteousness we shall maintain our rule in Providence unless the Amarr Empire see fit to claim it.
Should we fall from the grace of GOD, he may decide to punish our hybris by taking Providence from us. If that happens we shall learn our lesson, restate our beliefs in GOD, and by his grace we shall retake all that was lost.
No matter what the future will bring, we are in Providence to stay.
Q: How many Amarr does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, we have Minnies to do the menial chores. |
zoolkhan
Minmatar
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.03 10:44:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Pray tell, what would you do if Providence was taken from you, and could not be re-Reclaimed?
Been asked that question for years. I guess we'd have to wait and see if that scenario ever rolls around.
people realy need to start taking CVA seerious, theyre no easy targets
while i look forward for this scenario to happen, i dont see it happening already tomorrow
or the day after.
whoever takes on CVA, needs to do it fullhearted and commited,
otherwise the succsess is limited and after the dust settled it will be only U'K left fighting them, with limited succsess because due to our size.
(recruiting office is open in pator:-)
the only key against providence slavery is
getting the tribes and corps together
and form UNITY
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.03 10:54:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Michael Bross
Edited by: Michael Bross on 03/12/2007 00:58:16
Edited by: Michael Bross on 03/12/2007 00:57:16
Originally by: Lyra Garris
Edited by: Lyra Garris on 02/12/2007 16:16:12
I'm simply going to say that without the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar wouldn't even come close to the Minmatar today. They would be too busy fighting and killing each other with rocks and swords without the benefit of exposure to Amarrian technology.
Maybe you need a history lesson Ms. Garris.
21413 AD- The first Minmatar space ship is developed. During the next centuries the Minmatar settle on a number of planets and moons in 3 systems.
22355 AD- The Amarrians arive in the Pator system. They begin raiding the Minmatar Empire for slaves.
22480 AD- The Amarrians invade and conquer the Minmatar Empire.
As far as the discovery of Stargate technology we were but 20 years behind, but with only rocks and swords at hand this appears to be a much greater achievement. Seems to me that the Matari people got along just fine in their THOUSAND YEAR STAR SPANNING empire without the intrusion of the Amarr.
I'm not sure where you learned mathematics, but I'm guessing that it was in the Republic. By my reckoning, there are more than twenty years between 21290oc (when we unveiled our first jump gate) and 21413oc when the Minmatars launched their first space ship.
And note that there's a big difference between having a space ship and having jump gates. For one thing, you need to have ships capable of getting to the destination system to build the gate there. In other words, the Amarrians had been using interstellar travel for over a century before the Minmatars even got into orbit around their own planet. By the time the Minmatars had their three system "star spanning empire", the Amarr Empire was well developed throughout the cosmos.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.03 11:02:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Ontaku Oroa on 03/12/2007 11:05:53
And I suppose you calling a portion of a single star cluster (not even a galaxy) "cosmos" is typical for the kind of megalomaniacal astrogation they teach in the Empire?
So I suppose you would not have any problems with a technologically more advanced race crushing your civilization? You know, I regret that the Jovians haven't done a more thorough job of incinerating your golden fleet. Then you might actually learn humility, though with the kind of inclination for amnesia the Amarr have when it comes to their own failings, it is hard to imagine the sort of holocaust needed for your civilization to actually step down from its self-constructed dais...
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.03 11:04:00 -
[90]
We should find another route Sarum? what does our route matter when our destination is the same. We are coming for you and your kind.
Your refusal to give up your support of slavery has made you a marked man. You had your chance and you made your choice. You should try and come to terms with the fate your choices have brought you to.
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