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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.11.30 19:37:00 -
[1]
As title suggested this was post somewhere but has been delete for whatever reason. That said, I am not flaming CCP for anything.
The flaw with Golem is four fold: 1) The first isn't obvious to many player from what I seen generally on the forum. The range on torp is so bad in level 4(battleship npc orbit at 50km) and golem doesn't have the speed to keep up with battleship(even with maxed out nav and ab). It has the same range as HAM and HAM already outrange torp and does better damage on smaller ships. 2) Torp has very large powergrid and cpu use when comparing ratio of other turret(all kinds) from medium to large size. 3) True you can use cruise to hit battleship however why give bonus velocity to both torp and cruise since torp can't hit their target at all? Minn can use their t1 AC to hit at 60 km(grant with reduce damage but still a hit). Amarr can use T1 pulse laser to hit at 30km baseline and 36km with some training and then you add module to the mix you have possible to hit 41km. You can't say the same about torp. Gallente use both drone and blaster but for purpose of this post I will not cover drone(reason for this is all 4 marauder has drone anyway). T1 Blaster can hit 16km baseline and with skill go up to nearly 20km (with module can reach up to ) however it seem that they have same problem with shorter range option. However they still have faster speed to keep up with battleship(about 10m/s more baseline). However they can just easily switch to blaster without much training or refitting module as torp to cruise require.(requiring level 5 missile launcher operation) 4) The bonus to explosive velocity is totally useless on cruise missile because with the bonus and little training it would get explosive velocity bonus of 1050 m/s. I am 99 percent sure CCP are not planning to make battleship npc move at 1000 m/s however it is useless for hitting cruiser or smaller ship due to explosive radius.
Take this data and interpret what you will. I am almost sure golem is much better with bonus for pvp than pve. Therefore I suggest a urgent need of change to golem's bonus and improve torp range to be more inline.
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.30 19:47:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Caldreis
Take this data and interpret what you will. I am almost sure golem is much better with bonus for pvp than pve. Therefore I suggest a urgent need of change to golem's bonus and improve torp range to be more inline.
Any range addition to torpedoes would make it even better at pvp, and I don't think thats going to happen. Have any suggestions for a replacement for the explosion velocity bonus? I can't think of any that wouldn't make it really overpowered.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.11.30 20:03:00 -
[3]
I already suggest at least 10km(up to 40km) increase to maxed out skill torp range to actually work. Without skill it would barely be a 6km increase baseline. It would be easier to hit 50km with baseline maxed skill at 40km.(Only golem have the bonus to torp velocity I think.) How does baseline 6km increase is powerful in pvp?
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.11.30 20:46:00 -
[4]
Pilots using blasters might want 40km range, too. Or maybe at least 30km. High damage means short range. That's part of the balance. People who have used torps a lot are just spoiled.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.30 21:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Caldreis I already suggest at least 10km(up to 40km) increase to maxed out skill torp range to actually work. Without skill it would barely be a 6km increase baseline. It would be easier to hit 50km with baseline maxed skill at 40km.(Only golem have the bonus to torp velocity I think.) How does baseline 6km increase is powerful in pvp?
So this isn't about the golem after all. You want torpedoes modified to have longer range. I think their range is fine. I think you should use cruise missiles or javelin torpedoes if you aren't satisified.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.11.30 21:20:00 -
[6]
Gallente and Minn has less range AND more speed to make up for it. Yet golem has nothing to make up the weakness of torp range vs 50km battleship orbiting you. Plus there is no reason to NOT use torp as it was design for that and give me one reason why all other race's marauder shouldn't use blaster(bonus is for blaster however that is for another thread), pulse laser, AC.
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.30 22:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Caldreis Gallente and Minn has less range AND more speed to make up for it. Yet golem has nothing to make up the weakness of torp range vs 50km battleship orbiting you. Plus there is no reason to NOT use torp as it was design for that and give me one reason why all other race's marauder shouldn't use blaster(bonus is for blaster however that is for another thread), pulse laser, AC.
Non-sense. Just because it have a bonus to torp doesn't make it 'design for torp'. IT also have bonus to Cruise, so it is 'design for either torp or cruise'. If you think one doesn't work, switch to the other weapon.
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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.11.30 23:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eka Maladay
Non-sense. Just because it have a bonus to torp doesn't make it 'design for torp'. IT also have bonus to Cruise, so it is 'design for either torp or cruise'. If you think one doesn't work, switch to the other weapon.
Yes this is where your argument fell on itself. Cruise missile is the last weapon in the universe to need a velocity bonus and explosive velocity. Does this meant the Cruise missile is design to hit 2k m/s rifters right?(Hint: The explosive radius mean the cruise will do next to no damage.) So I ask you again which need the golem's bonus MORE, cruise or torp?
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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.11.30 23:12:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Caldreis on 30/11/2007 23:12:20 Double post FTL
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.01 01:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Caldreis
Yes this is where your argument fell on itself. Cruise missile is the last weapon in the universe to need a velocity bonus and explosive velocity. Does this meant the Cruise missile is design to hit 2k m/s rifters right?(Hint: The explosive radius mean the cruise will do next to no damage.)
Did you forget that it gets a painter bonus? Seriously though, if all you want is 6k more range, why dont you fit a flight time, or velocity rig? The golem's extra tank bonus should more than make up for a cap regen rig.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.01 02:28:00 -
[11]
Using rig may/may not solve the range problem. However this isn't my point as you have to use rig or it won't work (Drake and LSE II anyone?) whereas other faction marauder don't have to bother with them. So this solve this problem exactly how?
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.12.01 10:22:00 -
[12]
Cruise for PvE, torp for PvP?
Crusades: Bounties & Security Status |
Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.01 13:35:00 -
[13]
While true cruise does better than torp in level 4 however doesn't meant it can't be used on level 3 or even level 2 to blow them up faster hence meant both torp and cruise can be used in both pvp and pve to answer your question.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar FSK23
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Posted - 2007.12.01 19:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Caldreis Minn can use their t1 AC to hit at 60 km(grant with reduce damage but still a hit).
I lol'ed irl.
With max skills, Carbonized Lead L and 800mm Scout ACs you have a 4% chance to hit at 49.6km. 4%!.
Of course you get a hit at some point if you shoot for a couple of hours. But you get that one fluke with every turret weapon. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Law Enforcer
Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.01 19:41:00 -
[15]
the golem has other problems as well. even with maxed skills after you mount four siege laungers, xl-booster and a cap injector you already need a rcu or rig. you have to gimp the hell out of it to fit a mwd and a target painter as well and you NEED and mwd with the golems ****ty range. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected]) |
Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.01 19:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Law Enforcer the golem has other problems as well. even with maxed skills after you mount four siege laungers, xl-booster and a cap injector you already need a rcu or rig. you have to gimp the hell out of it to fit a mwd and a target painter as well and you NEED and mwd with the golems ****ty range.
Yes I tried to say that in my earlier post (not this one) and I agree with you that you have to gimp too much to even use torp which golem is apparently designed for.(Along with the gallente's marauder however I can't say anything past this point.)
And El'essar Viocragh I was looking at Artillery by accident for range so I will edit my post. Plus be glad it is a hit and you have more speed to use MWD(or AB) to keep in range whereas golem doesn't have that speed.
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Louis DelaBlanche
Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.12.01 20:12:00 -
[17]
Torps for shortrange cruise for medium/long like all the other missiles combinations (rocket-light; heavy-ham). Seems fine to me. Sure missions might take a lil longer to do now, but dont expect many ppl to cry rivers for you. I know I wont.
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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.01 20:46:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Caldreis on 01/12/2007 20:51:34 Edited by: Caldreis on 01/12/2007 20:50:38
Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Torps for shortrange cruise for medium/long like all the other missiles combinations (rocket-light; heavy-ham). Seems fine to me. Sure missions might take a lil longer to do now, but dont expect many ppl to cry rivers for you. I know I wont.
First I am not asking you to cry a river for me here. Secondly it is not fine since HAM higher dps has range of 14km(T2 long range HAM reach 57km at maxed skill) at maxed out skill which is below torp range however can do better with t2 variation than torp whereas all other from medium to large alway had increase range whereas it doesn't with missile. Thirdly you can't even do torp in level 4 because of the expensive involving set up golem (rigs, implants, well anything that isn't found by doing mission) will keep golem from being a regular torp "user friendly" that CCP designed it to be. If you were talking about level 3 or level 2 I wouldn't disagree with you however there are very cheaper way to do level 3 or level 2 already.(Uber tank Drake anyone?) Fourthly, I am sure you will next say cruise is fine learn to use it but as I said earlier golem has no bonus (other than double bonus to damage) that cruise missile will actually use.
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.12.01 21:55:00 -
[19]
Just buy a CNR. I can't outmine an Osprey in a Basilisk. Does the Basilisk need a boost? Just because the T2 Raven isn't head and shoulders above the regular one in the field at which the regular one excels doesn't mean its broken.
And don't T2 torps solve this problem anyway?
The fitting problems are a real concern, and should be adjusted.
Crusades: Bounties & Security Status |
Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.01 22:10:00 -
[20]
Reggie while true Golem isn't broken however I am not saying golem IS broken just having useless bonus that is more of pvp bonus than actual pve that it was design for. Sorta like how destroyer is design to kill frigate but didn't stop people from finding other use for it like salvager boat. Does that mean destroyer is broken or useless for what it is design for no. That what i am looking to change golem to still be possible to use in pvp but change the bonus. (or change torp however) I am trying to say that combine of both torp nerf (Golem may been design before or after the torp nerf since I don't know detail about CCP's team) and golem was may or may not intend. However from the bonus to torp velocity and the difficulty of accomplish the level 4 range necessary to kill battleship make it look more not intend. Here the math for t2 torp(YES t1 torp has less range): 5 sec X 1.25(max skill) X 2700 m/s X 1.5(Golem's bonus) X 1.25(max skill)= 31km Go ahead check sigi stat and tell me that I am wrong. You don't even have to train support skill for cruise to hit anything pretty much. Math for basic cruise missile(Notice NO skill bonus support here): 20 sec X 3750 m/s X 1.5(Golem's bonus)= 115km Care to tell me of any npc that orbit at 115km shooting at you?
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Captain Agemman
Minmatar Legio Ultra
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Posted - 2007.12.02 03:16:00 -
[21]
On a Vargur you need 3x RCU II to even fit 1400mm Howitzers. Or use ACs with T2 longrange ammo to stay above 50% chance to hit at 30km.
Marauders are the first t2 ships that have pve as a part of their role. It is not their be-all-end-all. And weapon balancing based upon pve will never happen. You will not get a 1000dps 40km+ option. That would be even more ridiculous as the 30km bit already is.
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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.02 03:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Captain Agemman On a Vargur you need 3x RCU II to even fit 1400mm Howitzers. Or use ACs with T2 longrange ammo to stay above 50% chance to hit at 30km.
Marauders are the first t2 ships that have pve as a part of their role. It is not their be-all-end-all. And weapon balancing based upon pve will never happen. You will not get a 1000dps 40km+ option. That would be even more ridiculous as the 30km bit already is.
While I never asked to balance weapon around PVE, you overlook one aspect about the torpedo even at 30km will never hit true 30km due to ship moving away or such (who do pvp that stand still?) force torpedo to travel more to hit or expire by the time the ship move out of effective torpedo range. Think of a boat on ocean moving away from a kite that has limit time in the air before it hit the boat or fall in the ocean. Hence even at 40km range there is still some room (That is t2 torpedo with maxed out skill I were proposing. T1 torpedo will have even LESS range.) HAM missile already out range at t1 which meant AC at medium size should outrange large AC right?
I never said you had just that you could fit AC large since the bonus is for both AC and Artillery whereas golem's bonus doesn't have that flexible.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:18:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin
Originally by: Caldreis
Take this data and interpret what you will. I am almost sure golem is much better with bonus for pvp than pve. Therefore I suggest a urgent need of change to golem's bonus and improve torp range to be more inline.
Any range addition to torpedoes would make it even better at pvp, and I don't think thats going to happen. Have any suggestions for a replacement for the explosion velocity bonus? I can't think of any that wouldn't make it really overpowered.
yer not much of a thinking are you ;) expl redius maybe :P would let you hit cruisers much harder thereby finishing missions faster... although main problem is the dps wich is lower then the cnr... sigh what a t2 bs, cant believe i have been waiting for this for years :S it utterly sucks
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.12.02 15:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin
Originally by: Caldreis I already suggest at least 10km(up to 40km) increase to maxed out skill torp range to actually work. Without skill it would barely be a 6km increase baseline. It would be easier to hit 50km with baseline maxed skill at 40km.(Only golem have the bonus to torp velocity I think.) How does baseline 6km increase is powerful in pvp?
So this isn't about the golem after all. You want torpedoes modified to have longer range. I think their range is fine. I think you should use cruise missiles or javelin torpedoes if you aren't satisified.
well i actually don't really care about topedoes right now, (although considering the range of HAM and ROCKETS compared to the base range of TORPS, it is utterly stupidity).
but i do care that the golem is a piece of S*** and is as good as useless for the pve (compare the price of it and the dps/mission per hour... it will cost a lot more then the cnr do missions slower and at the same time REQ a TON of weird skills which i really have a hard time figuring out WHY the hell they choice those skills as pre skills :S ??? )
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Caldreis
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Posted - 2007.12.03 00:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Buyerr
yer not much of a thinking are you ;) expl redius maybe :P would let you hit cruisers much harder thereby finishing missions faster... although main problem is the dps wich is lower then the cnr... sigh what a t2 bs, cant believe i have been waiting for this for years :S it utterly sucks
well i actually don't really care about topedoes right now, (although considering the range of HAM and ROCKETS compared to the base range of TORPS, it is utterly stupidity).
but i do care that the golem is a piece of S*** and is as good as useless for the pve (compare the price of it and the dps/mission per hour... it will cost a lot more then the cnr do missions slower and at the same time REQ a TON of weird skills which i really have a hard time figuring out WHY the hell they choice those skills as pre skills :S ??? )
On your reply to Danjira Ryuujin, Yes explosive raidus on torp are 400m. (What kind of battleship orbiting you at 30km? None unless you tackle it.) Cruise get reduce from a skill already and there is no way to make torpedoes explosive radius smaller(other than t2) which mean vs smaller ship in pvp it will do almost next to no damage however most battleship have better range than 30km anyway.
True about ratio between ISK per hour and cost of golem.
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Qual Kehk
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Posted - 2007.12.03 11:23:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Qual Kehk on 03/12/2007 11:24:13 Change explosion velocity bonus to rof bonus or at least to explo radius bonus (explosion velocity bonus is totaly useless). Kronos doing better dmg than Megathron, but Golem doing same/lower dmg than Raven.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2007.12.03 11:32:00 -
[27]
Because Gallente is about doing more damage and Caldari is about running missions semi-afk with FoF cruises :)
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Amarr Holymight
deii feram Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2007.12.03 12:59:00 -
[28]
I just PvPed against a golem on SISI with my abaddon and it's 86% resists ... it pwned me in about 1 minute with torpedoes.
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Trass
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Posted - 2007.12.03 13:17:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Trass on 03/12/2007 13:19:05
Originally by: Amarr Holymight I just PvPed against a golem on SISI with my abaddon and it's 86% resists ... it pwned me in about 1 minute with torpedoes.
Go against golem in fast bs with ab or mwd and golem dont do any real dmg to you. Typhoon with 4 torpedoes, neuts and nos, with nano and cap injectors and heavy drones will eat golem.
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Amarr Holymight
deii feram Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2007.12.03 13:57:00 -
[30]
I don't agree with anything here. Torps now do large damage close range so be happy that caldari actually got a PvP boost. In most PvP all you need to do is be able to hit under 20km. If you want to use ur golem for missions use cruise missiles you can now loot and salvage quicker anyway.
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