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Neerea
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.07 11:56:00 -
[1]
This is about CCPs "balancing" style. Its about CCP using a bazooka instead of a scalpel when they want to balance.
This is about me trying to understand how CCP thinks when it comes to balancing.
Since its not likely that a dev will respond to this i ask the player base thats been around for a while. Maybe they can enlighten me as to why CCP manages to render ships and modules useless instead of balancing them. Has it always been like this?
Ive only been a player since april but from what ive seen so far, im starting to get worried.
Ive been a gamer for a long time and played my share of games but almost never seen this sort of balancing in any other game.
Usually devs make small changes to try to achieve perfect balance. CCP on the other hand massacres entire ships/modules.
Lets take a couple of examples now with the Trinity nerfs.
1. The Myrmidon
Why the supernerf to its drone bay? Why not try balancing it using small changes first?
Maybe they could, for example, make it so it only could field four heavy drones instead of five and remove one turret slot.
Finetuning!
2. EW modules.
Players whined about RSD. CCP respons? Nerfing all EW excpet for ECM.
Instead of the current solution that has rendered entire ship classes almost useless, why not buff Sensor Boosters?
OK you wanted to introduce scripts. Thats fine. But why the nerf to the strenght of EW modules to? Isnt it enough that you remove one of the modules ability?
And TDs? What was that about? Never seen anyone whine about TDs...
Again, finetuning!
Im not going to go into further detail about the above examples because they are covered in other threads and im trying not to make this into a whinethread. Already plenty of those :)
Giving EVEs skillsystem, its a pretty big deal when you find something you want to fly and start training for it.
You start to think about what options you have, what playstyle you prefer and so on. Then you decide what ship/ships will give you the most pleasure flying. Then you eagerly wait for months untill you can fly that ship you think will be great fun flying.
But, from what ive seen since i started playing EVE, deciding to train something involves great risk. You also have to take into consideration if this ship is risking getting nerfed to the stoneage.
This removes a great deal of joy from the game for me.
I also belive that this kind of behavior from CCP discourages players to think out-of-the-box and come up with creative setups for their ships. Why you ask? Well you see, if someone starts being creative and comes up with a great setup he will probably win more fights then he losses. This makes some people go nuts and they head straight for the forums so they can make posts that ship A or module B is overpowered.
Because even if for some people its perfectly clear how to change your setup to render said "imba" setup useless, some players are so narrowminded that they prefer massive whinage on the boards instead of sitting down and come up with a counter.
And this make for a smooth transition for my next question.
How does CCP decide what to nerf?
Does the amount of whinage on the forums decide what gets hit next time? If yes, how does CCP decide if the people who do whine have a clue or not?
Beacuse ive seen people making whine posts about completly ******** stuff. This is true for all game communities, not just EVEs.
Is it the loudest part or the logical part of the community that CCP takes into consideration when deciding what to nerf/buff next?
From what ive seen so far it seems the loudest part are the winner. And this is truly sad.
And its here that i think CCP fails completely by only trying to satisfy "the mob".
I have alot of opinions on what path CCP are leading this game into. Where EVE is heading. Ofcourse its their game and they do what they want with it. But at the end of this road you can find all the other commercial non-brain MMOs waiting for EVE to join them.
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Neerea
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.07 11:56:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Neerea on 07/12/2007 11:57:45
As I said im trying to keep whine out of this thread as this is primarily an attempt to get some answers.
And as i stated in the beginning of this post im fairly new to this game so some of you might think "shut up, you dont have a clue".
But i like to think that I have gotten a pretty good understanding of this game. What i DO know is that there is almost always a counter to something. If you think hard enough you will come up with one :)
So, if the players that have been around for a while can answer me if this is a new trend or if its always been like this it would be much appreciated :)
Oh and btw, first person to ask for my stuff is a smelly baboon with three nipples 
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Wayez
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:06:00 -
[3]
Oook?
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:07:00 -
[4]
My nipples are pierced so if my shirt gets wet it looks like I have 6 
 Originally by: ISD Valorem
The Devs have stated multiple times that they are looking at the Amarr issues.
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Raem Civrie
Sons of Enelaise
Enelaise
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:08:00 -
[5]
Myrmidon had 5 ogre II's with 50% damage and hitpoint bonus.
475 raw bloody dps with 6 highslots left to fill. This was so far out of whack, it got hit.
As for EWar... the change functioned also to diversify sniper setups by adding customization to sensor boosters and tracking computers, removing "cookiecutters". Incidentally, most CCP balancing changes are an attempt to do just that; break up homogeneous setups. RSD's had it coming anyway, while ECM is most likely let remain because it is already *chance based*. Say it with me. The modules affected by the introduction of ARM scripts are all definite effect percentage modules, while ECM was a long time ago changed to a chance-based operation. Hence removing their complete reliability. Hence balancing them.
CCP didn't "massacre entire ships/modules". People are still going to be using snipers, the same goddamn ships you say have been "massacred" because they will remain the tactic of choice in fleet engagements.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Isseras Manufacture
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:12:00 -
[6]
In all honesty, this has nothing to do with CCP. This is the nature of MMORPGs. You'll see these kind of things in every MMOG out there. Take WOW, for instance. have a look at their class forums and you'll see that every single class in that games is "gimped", "nerfed" or "underpowered", whereas all other classes are "overpowered".
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:13:00 -
[7]
Players react worse to many small nerfs overtime as opposed to a good clean cut, your example of the Myrm is a clear cut case of 'obviously very out of whack', minor tone-downs would not have resolved the issue, as the ship is now its...guess what....balanced with the others in its class! Its the same issue with the Eos.
You can generally identify if something is out of kilter with a game if you see a persistent trend towards its usage at the expense of other items of similar function or form, people flock to what gives them an edge, its human behaviour.
CCP doesn't knee jerk here, these changes are long planned and well discussed, you and every other player are given the opportunity through Sisi and these forums to offer constructive feedback regarding any proposed changes, and indeed to propose changes yourself.
CCP isn't discouraging people from being creative, by cleaning up the obvious disparities its actually driving greater creativity, opposing the uber-fit-cookie-cutter-FOTM trend.
It sucks to be on the wrong end of a nerf, given the time invested in training and cost of fitting etc. but I haven't honestly seen anything in this patch which can't be justified, have you? My only complaint is I would like to see as much focus on the under-performing as the over-performing going forward, boosts where boosts are needed as much as nerfing things which over-perform.
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ry ry
StateCorp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade
It sucks to be on the wrong end of a nerf, given the time invested in training and cost of fitting etc.
but all his myrm skills are still equally useful. same with the eos.
amarr T2 ships being switched to ******* missile boats caused less whining than myrm pilots not being able to deploy 5 heavy drones anymore.
*again. |
Xurx
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.07 12:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
My nipples are pierced so if my shirt gets wet it looks like I have 6
Pictures or it didn't happen ! 
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Vista saved my boot.ini |
Akiama
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2007.12.07 13:13:00 -
[10]
I fly the myrmidon and have had great success with it in mission running and I even forgot to switch to active hardeners since I finally got the skills for it trained. I ignored resists for ages until someone showed me how useful they are. I'd always gone with the blow them up before they blow me up plan, but starting to run hard lvl 3's made me pay attention to mission rat types.
I didn't like the drone bandwidth nerf to the Myrmidon, but I'd started flying flights of 5 hammerhead2's even before the nerf and found them to be much better overall in pve missions than 5 ogre 1's (not quite there for tech 2 heavies).
Now I carry three flights of five H2's and it works great. As long as I'm careful and cycle the flights out in difficult missions, I don't lose a drone.
So this isn't really a nerf to the myrmidon since flying 5 ogre's was only good in pvp against slow ships anyway.
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"Nice work dumbass."
"I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Neerea
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.07 13:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wayez
Oook?
meeow
Originally by: Hectaire Glade
CCP doesn't knee jerk here, these changes are long planned and well discussed, you and every other player are given the opportunity through Sisi and these forums to offer constructive feedback regarding any proposed changes, and indeed to propose changes yourself.
Ive seen many players giving feedback, posting ideas and solutions to devs about various nerfs. Many of them very logical, well thought and balanced but you dont see any of them when the patch gets released.
Originally by: Hectaire Glade
It sucks to be on the wrong end of a nerf
I dont mind nerfs. What i dont like is when something gets hit to much by the nerfbat. And this isnt only about the Myrmidon.
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Isan Danderoda
Strix Armaments and Defence
Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2007.12.07 13:22:00 -
[12]
I don't see the complaint about the change to the Myrm's dronebay. It was too big. Let's face it, it was a large cruiser that was able to field battleship sized weapons. Imagine a Drake fielding a full rack of cruise missiles.
Yes, CCP did some heavy changes this time, but other times they do subtle ones. Personally I like the changes. It not only helps try to keep the balance, but also keeps things fresh.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.07 13:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
My nipples are pierced so if my shirt gets wet it looks like I have 6
Either you present us a graphical depiction of your mammaries, or we must show you the door, unfortunatly.
Originally by: ISD Cortes
You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females |
Ragstar
Blueprint Haus
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.07 13:51:00 -
[14]
I'm still reeling from the torp nerf. Suddenly I can't hit anything!
Yeah, I did know it was coming, yeah, I was expecting it, but the reality still hurts. Stripped my ratting ship of the arbalest siege launchers and fitted cruise launchers instead. Can't really see a purpose for torps now.
I hear Torps still work against BS rats .. well, that'd be great if I could find any - and then get into torp firing range.
Oh well. There goes the only megre source of income I had. *sniffle*
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.07 14:18:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Hooch Flux on 07/12/2007 14:18:47
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
My nipples are pierced so if my shirt gets wet it looks like I have 6
Proof or GTFO!
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.07 14:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ragstar
I'm still reeling from the torp nerf. Suddenly I can't hit anything!
Yeah, I did know it was coming, yeah, I was expecting it, but the reality still hurts. Stripped my ratting ship of the arbalest siege launchers and fitted cruise launchers instead. Can't really see a purpose for torps now.
I hear Torps still work against BS rats .. well, that'd be great if I could find any - and then get into torp firing range.
Oh well. There goes the only megre source of income I had. *sniffle*
pssst... fit an MWD...
pssst... ROF of 5-7 secs...
pssst... BS rat dead in 12 seconds
pssst... rigs for fun
ok, back to the the op. honestly there were so many changes, and so many bugs that people were upset, before, during, and soon after the patch, some stealth nerfs thrown in and other odd things going on with the client. You take all that, and thats alot to swallow, especially right before christmas, where everyone has more time off.
So its like this, KISS, Keep it simple stupid. Make changes gradually, don't do it all at once, its just too much. crawl --> walk --> run... Really the game has changed alot of overnight. And when people have to adapt, its like a train wreck. Yes, here in this game world most people need more prodding, more so than in real life, because its suppose to be a game. I love the complexity but when unforseen errors mix with intended changes, alot of us rocket scientists are left scratching their heads. We all will adapt cause, this game is great on alot of levels and its the only game in town for us space junkies to get their fix
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