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Gordon Reiss
Damage Unlimited Inc
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.08 00:52:00 -
[1]
I can't find a topic on this so if you know one please link it. And will go there.
I don't get it.
Without a script a sensor booster is now half its original boost to both targeting range and scan resolution. And if you decide to add a script you must choose to increase one attribute at the full expense of the other. Effectively it now takes two (2) sensor boosters to do the job one did before Trinity.
Now for Sensor Boosting its very important to have BOTH scan res and targeting range, especially if you are flying a sniping Battleship. You want both the range and the quicker lock time.
NOW, I thought all the fuss was over nerfing Dampeners as I heard over and over that they were too powerful. Fine...even if thats PERFECTY reasonable the only aspect that needed nerfing was the Targeting Range aspect of the dampening because who the **** cares about slowing down an enemy lock time (scan res damp) when you can damp them out of range entirely? Essentially, it now takes 3 damps loaded with target range dampening scripts to do what 2 damps did before...aprox 33% nerf to the purpose people used them for.
My question...my comment...why mess up boosters even MORE than damps?
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SIDE NOTE on snipers...haven't even gotton to the nerf on tracking speed/optimal range boosting. Does CCP want to take yet another tactic away from small fleets trying to engage the BLOB...wtf...where am I wrong here? Because...God I hope I am 
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.12.08 00:56:00 -
[2]
Um... put on your Thermal Hardener II on right now.
Numbers-wise, sensor damps got hit even harder than sensor boosters, being cut by more than 50% in both stats.
Also, I'm not sure, but I think that a script still gives you the base (half of the old value) benefit of the other attribute. Could somebody test this please?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:00:00 -
[3]
This is the only one on the first page at the moment, you should find tons if you use the "next page" link however.
Most droneboats cared more about the scan res than the targetting range. They wanted the opponent up close and not bothering to lock the drones as it would take to much time and they could just be scooped.
The fleet engagements today are done at longer range than intended really. The current average range of 150km messes with gridsizes and the 249km targetting cap. As does the sensor boosters in a way.
Postcount: 291099
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NoNah
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:01:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Acoco Osiris
Um... put on your Thermal Hardener II on right now.
Numbers-wise, sensor damps got hit even harder than sensor boosters, being cut by more than 50% in both stats.
Also, I'm not sure, but I think that a script still gives you the base (half of the old value) benefit of the other attribute. Could somebody test this please?
It doesnt. The base value is about half the original values, except on damps, and the script nullifies one bonus and doubles the other.
Postcount: 349244
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Veesha
Double-Down
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Veesha on 08/12/2007 01:02:54
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Gordon Reiss
Damage Unlimited Inc
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:03:00 -
[6]
I appreciate that my aprox stats on damps are off (maybe way off). I'm over the dampening nerf as I know it was a big issue for many.
My concern are the sensor boosters. Why nerf them? And then take that question into context with the more popular cry to nerf damps. It makes no sense to me.
I never heard a pep anout nerfing them and I'm wondering if it was simply overlooked how hard this hit actually is. Perhaps CCP just piled it in with its new script regime (which I think is stupid in concept anyway).
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NoNah
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gordon Reiss
I appreciate that my aprox stats on damps are off (maybe way off). I'm over the dampening nerf as I know it was a big issue for many.
My concern are the sensor boosters. Why nerf them? And then take that question into context with the more popular cry to nerf damps. It makes no sense to me.
I never heard a pep anout nerfing them and I'm wondering if it was simply overlooked how hard this hit actually is. Perhaps CCP just piled it in with its new script regime (which I think is stupid in concept anyway).
I thought I just mentioned why? CCP does not want engagements at the ranges they're currently held. So they nerf some of the modules allowing that kind of ranges? Perfect sense?
This is a part of the ARM-idea I really have no issues with. However the combination of Celestis-line nerf and ECM-boost serie is mindboggling. As is the TD nerf.
Imho the more people hurt by a nerf - the more sound it was.
Postcount: 278699
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Gordon Reiss
Damage Unlimited Inc
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:20:00 -
[8]
Since you appear to know all this stuff...perhaps you canpoint me to some discussion links about the "appropriate battle range." And what is ARM...more links please.
And while we're quoting...
Originally by: NoNah
Imho the more people hurt by a nerf - the more sound it was.
That's not a very sound analysis or answer, and I would not paint a brush so broadly. You are, of course, entitled to you Honest Opinon, but I will continue to read into these scripts before making such a claim....or digesting such as settled.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.12.08 01:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/12/2007 01:41:26
Originally by: Gordon Reiss
I can't find a topic on this so if you know one please link it. And will go there.
I don't get it.
Without a script a sensor booster is now half its original boost to both targeting range and scan resolution. And if you decide to add a script you must choose to increase one attribute at the full expense of the other. Effectively it now takes two (2) sensor boosters to do the job one did before Trinity.
Now for Sensor Boosting its very important to have BOTH scan res and targeting range, especially if you are flying a sniping Battleship. You want both the range and the quicker lock time.
NOW, I thought all the fuss was over nerfing Dampeners as I heard over and over that they were too powerful. Fine...even if thats PERFECTY reasonable the only aspect that needed nerfing was the Targeting Range aspect of the dampening because who the **** cares about slowing down an enemy lock time (scan res damp) when you can damp them out of range entirely? Essentially, it now takes 3 damps loaded with target range dampening scripts to do what 2 damps did before...aprox 33% nerf to the purpose people used them for.
My question...my comment...why mess up boosters even MORE than damps?
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SIDE NOTE on snipers...haven't even gotton to the nerf on tracking speed/optimal range boosting. Does CCP want to take yet another tactic away from small fleets trying to engage the BLOB...wtf...where am I wrong here? Because...God I hope I am
Because this pretty much only nerfs snipers. Because snipers are the only ones really needing scan res AND lock range at the same time. I guess ccp thought snipers needed a tweak? Dont you?
Personally I think its reasonable that sniping battleships have to be forced to choose the lock range path and therefore get longer lock times. Its stupid that something can insta lock you from 200km away. A good nerf.
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InLogOffskiWeTrust |
Gordon Reiss
Damage Unlimited Inc
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:10:00 -
[10]
Yeah, because its soooooo easy coordinating sniper runs that it needed to be nerfed...
I'm still a relatively new pilot but I really thought this was a fair tactic for smaller fleets when facing the BLOB...because its takes a decent dose of skill and leadership to pull off.
So for now...I'm sad as I really liked this tactic. Add a cloak to bunch of snipers and you could really bother the beast...
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Sauromugue
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:21:00 -
[11]
 Bawww
Just be lucky they didn't take away all your bonuses.
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Kalidann
Caldari
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:26:00 -
[12]
Quit complaining, you are making us look bad.
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Planktal
Kenshao Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:28:00 -
[13]
Quit your whining and adapt, if you cant do that, WOW is that way --->
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Gordon Reiss
Damage Unlimited Inc
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:34:00 -
[14]
Yeah, thats right...I'm crying...I'm complaining . But dont you guys go worrying about me...or my corp...or my alliance...or even my race(s). Before the tears dry and before the anger subsides many shall die...and continue to die and die
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Phaedruss
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Planktal
Quit your whining and adapt, if you cant do that, WOW is that way --->
Ah yes, the mating call of those who just like to bend over and take it 
Why were Sensor Boosters nerfed? It's just another example of the vicious circle of changes, problems and complexities necessitated by other changes.
Sensor Boosters were always a very powerful module. Everyone fit them because they increased targeting range as well as increasing scan resolution...nice little bonuses for any combat ship that only require a single mid-slot and limited skills. Their bonuses also happen to reduce the penalties from being targeted with sensor damps.
Take a sledgehammer to damps without doing something to sensor boosters? That'd be ridiculous even by CCP standards. You should be glad that sensor boosters are still viable even without scripts, and that with scripts each attribute is the same as it was before.
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Condecinte
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Posted - 2007.12.08 02:55:00 -
[16]
You can still hit to the same range when using the range script and everybody else has to use scripts too so its all fair.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.08 03:37:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Atius Tirawa on 08/12/2007 03:38:11
I notice that those who are in favor of these changes don't fly in fleets (noob alt/unknownss) or if they do, don't appriciate the backbone to any fleet - the battleship.
The range/scan res nurf does nothing for fleet warfare because we will all pick range over lock anyday. It just also means we will be bringing more support and more capitals (once the cyno-jammer is down) and more gate camping to make sure the smaller ships don't get to us. . .So what happens here is that fleet warfare is forced to blob even more - which I don't mind. . .but in truth, the servers can't take it.
No one really flys battleships in PvP, and if they did, this nurf is not going to really change much for them, its always about scan res for the close range BB. What this does do however is make fleet warfare require more people.
So if you have not been on a fleet op before, please, by all means stay in your level 4s or vegas or whatever and be happy, but for us in 0.0, this just means more lag, and lag is bad.
In the end though, it affects all snipers - so - its not really a nurf, its more a bad idea in general.
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FireAnt
Caldari
Wings of the Storm
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Posted - 2007.12.09 01:34:00 -
[18]
my only problem with snipers being nerfed to hell and back is sometimes that is the only chance to shoot at these ultra fast ships like vagabonds. Now all bs will fitted close range as the track comps and sensor boosters are worthless. so you have to either have a 3 to 4 huginns in your gang or just wave at the fast ones since they can be out of range in 3 seconds.
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FireAnt
Caldari
Wings of the Storm
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Posted - 2007.12.09 01:44:00 -
[19]
Pretty nice boost for missile spammers also since they dont need tracking comps and they get a ew boost.
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Klavayne
Free Mercenaries Union
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.12.09 01:55:00 -
[20]
Just out of curiosity, is this still the same gordon as from fatal days?, haven't been in game for a while.
Either way, i do slightly agree with you. But it is another chip at getting rid of blobs by ccp. We'll all adapt to it quickly enough i guess.
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Trask II
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Posted - 2007.12.09 02:47:00 -
[21]
CCP stated straight out that they didn't want people sitting 200k away in a BS and instalocking frigs and cruisers. That's the #1 reason why it was nerfed. The 2nd reason is that if boosters weren't nerfed at all, their role as counters to damps would enable 1 booster to out perform 2-3 damps after the patch.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.12.09 06:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/12/2007 01:41:26
Originally by: Gordon Reiss
I can't find a topic on this so if you know one please link it. And will go there.
I don't get it.
Without a script a sensor booster is now half its original boost to both targeting range and scan resolution. And if you decide to add a script you must choose to increase one attribute at the full expense of the other. Effectively it now takes two (2) sensor boosters to do the job one did before Trinity.
Now for Sensor Boosting its very important to have BOTH scan res and targeting range, especially if you are flying a sniping Battleship. You want both the range and the quicker lock time.
NOW, I thought all the fuss was over nerfing Dampeners as I heard over and over that they were too powerful. Fine...even if thats PERFECTY reasonable the only aspect that needed nerfing was the Targeting Range aspect of the dampening because who the **** cares about slowing down an enemy lock time (scan res damp) when you can damp them out of range entirely? Essentially, it now takes 3 damps loaded with target range dampening scripts to do what 2 damps did before...aprox 33% nerf to the purpose people used them for.
My question...my comment...why mess up boosters even MORE than damps?
-----
SIDE NOTE on snipers...haven't even gotton to the nerf on tracking speed/optimal range boosting. Does CCP want to take yet another tactic away from small fleets trying to engage the BLOB...wtf...where am I wrong here? Because...God I hope I am
Because this pretty much only nerfs snipers. Because snipers are the only ones really needing scan res AND lock range at the same time. I guess ccp thought snipers needed a tweak? Dont you?
Personally I think its reasonable that sniping battleships have to be forced to choose the lock range path and therefore get longer lock times. Its stupid that something can insta lock you from 200km away. A good nerf.
I guess sniping battleships did need a nerf, but what about sniping frigates/destroyers/cruisers and even battlecruisers?
Not to forget that the Minmatar and Amarr take the biggest hit and effectively kill any ability of minmatar battleships been viable in sniping PvP.
Not exactly bright, I cry for my thrasher.
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Mordarx
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd.
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.09 07:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nian Banks
I guess sniping battleships did need a nerf, but what about sniping
Crap, as long as your transversal was >0 than you safe form a sniper battleship in a small ship. What this nerfs is BS snipers against other BS's. Its total crap since T2 ammo was already nerfed and snipers carry no tank. Minmater just copped it hard in the arse. Some Fwit in CCP got their panties in a twist about long range IMHO.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.12.09 07:58:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mordarx
Originally by: Nian Banks
I guess sniping battleships did need a nerf, but what about sniping
Crap, as long as your transversal was >0 than you safe form a sniper battleship in a small ship. What this nerfs is BS snipers against other BS's. Its total crap since T2 ammo was already nerfed and snipers carry no tank. Minmater just copped it hard in the arse. Some Fwit in CCP got their panties in a twist about long range IMHO.
I would say its got more to do with the fact that CCP can't code for **** and as such have no idea how to effectively increase the grid size beyond 249km and so sniping battleships show how incompetent they are due to exceeding and hence hitting the engines range wall.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.12.09 10:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/12/2007 01:41:26
Originally by: Gordon Reiss
I can't find a topic on this so if you know one please link it. And will go there.
I don't get it.
Without a script a sensor booster is now half its original boost to both targeting range and scan resolution. And if you decide to add a script you must choose to increase one attribute at the full expense of the other. Effectively it now takes two (2) sensor boosters to do the job one did before Trinity.
Now for Sensor Boosting its very important to have BOTH scan res and targeting range, especially if you are flying a sniping Battleship. You want both the range and the quicker lock time.
NOW, I thought all the fuss was over nerfing Dampeners as I heard over and over that they were too powerful. Fine...even if thats PERFECTY reasonable the only aspect that needed nerfing was the Targeting Range aspect of the dampening because who the **** cares about slowing down an enemy lock time (scan res damp) when you can damp them out of range entirely? Essentially, it now takes 3 damps loaded with target range dampening scripts to do what 2 damps did before...aprox 33% nerf to the purpose people used them for.
My question...my comment...why mess up boosters even MORE than damps?
-----
SIDE NOTE on snipers...haven't even gotton to the nerf on tracking speed/optimal range boosting. Does CCP want to take yet another tactic away from small fleets trying to engage the BLOB...wtf...where am I wrong here? Because...God I hope I am
Because this pretty much only nerfs snipers. Because snipers are the only ones really needing scan res AND lock range at the same time. I guess ccp thought snipers needed a tweak? Dont you?
Personally I think its reasonable that sniping battleships have to be forced to choose the lock range path and therefore get longer lock times. Its stupid that something can insta lock you from 200km away. A good nerf.
I guess sniping battleships did need a nerf, but what about sniping frigates/destroyers/cruisers and even battlecruisers?
Not to forget that the Minmatar and Amarr take the biggest hit and effectively kill any ability of minmatar battleships been viable in sniping PvP.
Not exactly bright, I cry for my thrasher.
Uhm sniping frigs do not need faster lock time, youll do fine with the range boost only. You want to snipe pods in your frig or what is your problem? Most cruisers wont get into much trouble either.
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InLogOffskiWeTrust |
Soraya Silvermoon
Langoliers
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Posted - 2007.12.09 11:47:00 -
[26]
I welcome theese changes.
The 200km fights have been annoying me since TII guns and ammo were introduced.
Hopefully the changes will pull the battle closer and solve a lot of problems.
Amarr will get its boost indirectly becasue its mid range superiority will finnaly count for something. (If the changes makes it possible to use pulse lasers that is)
The missilships wil have shorter time before the missils hit and might finnaly be ok to use in pvp.
Electronic warfare will finnaly be usable since the enemy isnt out of range anymore.
Snipers wount be the main fleet anymore but rather a smaller tactical portion of the fleet to be used in certain situations rather than being the main way of fighting.
I think CCP really thought it through this time.
with all the pros wich I hope for and think is the intention of the changes I welcome them.
This change affects gameplay and not really nerf anyone. Except me ofc who flies a tempest.
The tempest will suffer from the tracking computer scripts as in effect compaired from before patch you got range and tracking.
The projectiles needs modules affecting tracking to hit anything but now they have to sacrifice tracking for range and vice versa. I think they will choose range becasue if they choose tracking they get less range and just need even more tracking making the module nothing but a range decrease module with no effects on number of hits.
However if we find a setup for the tempest that provides eonugh tracking it might really shine in hit and run. Going in close (locking fast with 2 x scan res scripts) and warping off while the enemy fleet fit other setups.
However this is based upon the fact that battle will pull closer. wich necessarily dont have to happen.
we might just be looking at everyone fitting 2 x range boost sensorboosters along with 1 scan res sensorboster and still be fighting the sniping battles.
Still I welcome the change as it brings possibillities and is in good intention becasue everyone just blobbing with TII snipers at 200km is broken game mechanics...
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Jark Mennings
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.09 14:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon
I welcome theese changes.
The 200km fights have been annoying me since TII guns and ammo were introduced.
Hopefully the changes will pull the battle closer and solve a lot of problems.
Amarr will get its boost indirectly becasue its mid range superiority will finnaly count for something. (If the changes makes it possible to use pulse lasers that is)
The missilships wil have shorter time before the missils hit and might finnaly be ok to use in pvp.
Electronic warfare will finnaly be usable since the enemy isnt out of range anymore.
Snipers wount be the main fleet anymore but rather a smaller tactical portion of the fleet to be used in certain situations rather than being the main way of fighting.
I think CCP really thought it through this time.
with all the pros wich I hope for and think is the intention of the changes I welcome them.
This change affects gameplay and not really nerf anyone. Except me ofc who flies a tempest.
The tempest will suffer from the tracking computer scripts as in effect compaired from before patch you got range and tracking.
The projectiles needs modules affecting tracking to hit anything but now they have to sacrifice tracking for range and vice versa. I think they will choose range becasue if they choose tracking they get less range and just need even more tracking making the module nothing but a range decrease module with no effects on number of hits.
However if we find a setup for the tempest that provides eonugh tracking it might really shine in hit and run. Going in close (locking fast with 2 x scan res scripts) and warping off while the enemy fleet fit other setups.
However this is based upon the fact that battle will pull closer. wich necessarily dont have to happen.
we might just be looking at everyone fitting 2 x range boost sensorboosters along with 1 scan res sensorboster and still be fighting the sniping battles.
Still I welcome the change as it brings possibillities and is in good intention becasue everyone just blobbing with TII snipers at 200km is broken game mechanics...
Well thought out and good post IMO.
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