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Reverend Borgur
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Posted - 2004.03.12 04:36:00 -
[1]
Just a question here dont know if its in the right forum but anyways..
Why is the Tachyon Laser not THE most damaging weapon?
I myself do not use lasers just curious since it has the higest power grid fitting, mega cap drain, mega priced ect. why does it pale when compared to other weapons? + offcourse the whole EM/Thermal problem with hardeners basically kicking the firepower an enemy Apoc has right out the window and into very very deep space 
Anyways dont hate the n00blar just asking here because it seems mighty weird to me.
Thanks in advance
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James McGowen
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Posted - 2004.03.12 04:45:00 -
[2]
Rate of Fire.
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"To err is human"
To really foul up requires a computer. |
Reverend Borgur
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Posted - 2004.03.12 04:47:00 -
[3]
Not exactly an in-depth answer I was looking for but thanks none the less...so all the cons of this gun is offset by rate of fire?
Sounds still a bit tweaky for me since it also has massive power drain which means the rate of fire isnt nesccesarily a good thing or no?
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DeathMerchant
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Posted - 2004.03.12 05:13:00 -
[4]
Well Rev when choosing weapons you need to figure out the DOT (damage over time)vs the cap use if you use the proper ships and bonuses plus your skill lvls for cap useage. You can cut down alot of Cap burn with skills that control bursts and cap useages. Larger guns are not always best as even when using MODs for ROF and Range some smaller guns will out damage them over time. when you fight and NPC check your log and get an average damage of the weapon and how long it took you to kill the target then you will know the Dot of that weapon at your skill lvl and ship type, mods and whatever. Problem is figuring how long you are going to survive with no shields regardless of how much DOT you doing to the enemy.
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Reverend Borgur
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Posted - 2004.03.12 05:16:00 -
[5]
Mmmkay.
Was aware of DOT issues was really just interrested with all the "X" factors in play IE skills ect when the ball is up the Tachyon seems lacking...anyways Ill stop ranting and see for myself when the day comes..
Thanks for the input though much appreciated
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HavokTBP
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Posted - 2004.03.12 05:27:00 -
[6]
I want some Tach mods......
But 1400mm's are too easy to get an over powered in my opinion "own a tach beam, which seems unfair" which are also then boosted with mods.
But yeah, lasers are getting the ****ty end on the large scale.
Member of the Curse Alliance before the Corruption
Leader of The Black Plague.
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TauTut
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Posted - 2004.03.12 07:02:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
Just a question here don't know if its in the right forum but anyways..
Why is the Tachyon Laser not THE most damaging weapon?
I myself do not use lasers just curious since it has the highest power grid fitting, mega cap drain, mega priced etc. why does it pale when compared to other weapons? + off-course the whole EM/Thermal problem with hardeners basically kicking the firepower an enemy Apoc has right out the window and into very very deep space
Anyways don't hate the n00blar just asking here because it seems mighty weird to me.
Thanks in advance
For someone who calls himself a n00blar .. you seem to have damn good grasp of the issue. Even my grandmother hardens for thermal and EM these days ... plus cap usage (even with skills and bonuses) absolutely drains your ship dry of cap in a short period of time.
At least with an Apoc you can fit a couple of launchers to mix damage types .. try doing anything with a 'geddon. I'm looking to circumvent the issue by mixing Mega's (less cap intensive) plus projectiles - but of course, I get no ship/race bonus' for the latter.
I kind of get the feeling that Amarr technology is supposed to be seen as out dated and out thought in the modern eve universe .. the other races have superseded our technology. Perhaps we should be stuffed / mounted and put in the PvP museum.
-TT
Background
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.03.12 07:28:00 -
[8]
In terms of damage per second, Tachyons are the most damaging long-range gun in the game. Sure a 1400mm does more per SHOT, but a Tachyon fires a lot faster. However, Tachs have some real problems:
1) Very high cap use (though not unbearable in an Amarr ship)
2) Damage types limited to EM and Thermal (poor damage vs armor)
3) No ship gets a damage or ROF bonus for lasers
1400mms, on the other hand, use little cap, are able to do any of the 4 damage types, and become LETHAL if used on a Tempest (thanks to the bonus to damage AND rate of fire). So it's not the tachs themselves that are bad, it's the ship bonuses. 20% cap use reduction (an Apoc with Amarr Battleship 4) is nice, but when a Tempest at skill 4 gets 20% damage AND 20% ROF bonus it doesn't even compare. 
Remember: 1.2 (damage) / 0.8 (time) = 1.5 times normal damage for a Tempest with L4 skill. That means 4 1400s hit like SIX guns, while an Apoc's 4 tachyons only hit like four.
Still, if you want THE most damaging weapon, go blasters. They are by FAR the most powerful guns around... if you can get close enough. And considering how hard to use they are, they SHOULD hit hardest...
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kisula
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Posted - 2004.03.12 07:45:00 -
[9]
As an inveterate Apoc user I would have to agree that when they downgraded the Tachs (twice so far at least ) they basically made them impractical to use.Even with 5 gunnery skills at L5 ,including large lasers ,they dont cut the mustard.
I swapped the 4 Large Tachs that I could comfortably mount for 6 mega beams and find the DOT to be much higher,plus you are able to keep firing for much longer.Sure you wont be doing the damage per shot of tachs or 1400's but you will be hitting at least once every second.
Imho they basically nerfed the tachs out of the game.
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F'nog
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Posted - 2004.03.12 08:13:00 -
[10]
I know they nerfed them, but what did they change on the Tachs?
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Latinum Smith
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Posted - 2004.03.12 08:53:00 -
[11]
I have used both tachs and 1400 mm projectiles and the advantages that everyone always quotes if the rate of fire. SO ys I can fire twice but that means I have less cap for the shield boosters.
Now some would that the arma and apoc should be set up as armor tanks, but when you do that you lose any possible cap recharge rate. so you can fire those tachs even less.
So yes the tachs have the advantage of now requirering ammo and have a good rate of fire, but they use lots of cap and only do em and thermal damage.
The 1400 mm projectiles require little cap, do all damage types and have smaller cpu and power needs.
I have know people in a tempest anble to metain their shields with XLarge shield boost and constantly fire, while the armagedon and apoc run out of steam.
As have been said before the tach has been nerfed twice. This after I had already spent the time and effort learning them. But never mind they nerf stuff all the time so I suppose it equals out eventually.
Have a nice day 
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.03.12 09:46:00 -
[12]
Lasers are really only suitable for PvE.
Amarr pilots can achieve higher DPS / DOT using Hybrids and have grid and cap to spare.
Some quick numbers:
One could with engineering 5 and 4 power diags shoehorn in 3 X Tachs + 3 X mega beam: Stock this gives the ship about 86.20 DPS (dmg per second) using multi freqs. This requires 22,500 grid.
One could with engineering 2 and no power diags fit 6 X 425 rails: Stock this gives the ship about 82.80 DPS using anti-matter. This requires 16500 grid.
The other advantages:
1) even with battleship 5 and controlled bursts 5 the hybrids require less than half the energy to run (29.99 per second cap) vs (14.12 per second cap).
2) Hybrids have better range using the best ammo/crystal (20,000 + 16k falloff) vs (24,000 + 24k falloff).
3) Lasers do have a slightly better tracking (.0033) vs (.00278) Little less than 6/10,000ths.
With the considerable less grid use the hybrid user can have more of his low slots available to him for things like damage adds and more cap available to run things like shield boosters.
Couple all that with the fact that em hardeners are very common and you have an entire line of weapon that is only good against NPCs.
I would almost prefer that CCP make crystals only good for a set number of shots say 5-10k so they would lose their justification to make lasers the hands down worst PvP weapon in the game.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.03.12 09:55:00 -
[13]
Tachyons ARE the most damaging weapons in game. Their DOT is superior too all other turrets in game.
And yes shield hardeners seriously cut into the daamage a tachyon ( or any other turret for that matter) can do, guess why everyone uses em+thermal, without them tachyons do twice the damage of a 425 against shields ( don't have the numbers handy atm, but it's about that)
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Desdemoniam
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Posted - 2004.03.12 12:08:00 -
[14]
Quote:
3) No ship gets a damage or ROF bonus for lasers
correct me if im wrong but doesnt the Armageddon have an rof bonus to large laser turrets?
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Fuse
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Posted - 2004.03.12 12:08:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Lasers are really only suitable for PvE.
I would almost prefer that CCP make crystals only good for a set number of shots say 5-10k so they would lose their justification to make lasers the hands down worst PvP weapon in the game.
How about some Tech II crystals instead? 
0.o It's not you... no wait it is you. |
Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.03.12 12:16:00 -
[16]
It does
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.03.12 12:19:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Lasers are really only suitable for PvE.
Amarr pilots can achieve higher DPS / DOT using Hybrids and have grid and cap to spare.
Sadly very true. I used to run with 2 Tachs and 3 Megas in my Apoc. These days I'm mostly using 4 x 425 rails and 3 (or even 4) x dual heavy beams - cpu and grid then balance up quite nicely and cap usage is a dream for someone used to a large laser battery.
Why use a megabeam when a 425 rail has comparable range/damage and uses (even with Apoc bonus) nearly twice the cap? Even ammo isn't the reason it used to be, not with stations in deep 0.0 now.
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Jargo Stonecutter
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Posted - 2004.03.12 13:22:00 -
[18]
I hope that tachs get better again when the shield piercing skills makes it ingame (castor skill tree).
Loved to use them on my geddon but for now i prefer the 1400mm for pure long range damage.
May you live in interresting times. |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2004.03.12 13:35:00 -
[19]
Just out of curiosity, with the lenses also allowing for less cap usage per shot how does this affect the lasers and hybrids?
I am a pure proj user (Im minmatar after all) so I havent really botherred looking over hybrid and laser "ammo" types but I have noticed that you can get as much as 50% cap use off on hybrids and 40% cap use on lenses.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.03.12 13:37:00 -
[20]
"And yes shield hardeners seriously cut into the daamage a tachyon ( or any other turret for that matter) can do, guess why everyone uses em+thermal, without them tachyons do twice the damage of a 425 against shields ( don't have the numbers handy atm, but it's about that)"
... here's the large turret damage against shields / hardened (em+therm) shields. Respective skills at lvl. 5-4:
Neutron Blaster Cannon I: 25.54 / 19.19
Ion Blaster Cannon I: 24.05 / 18.08
Dual Heavy Ion Blaster I: 22.48 / 16.90
425mm Railgun I: 16.31 / 12.25
350mm Railgun I: 15.70 / 11.80
Dual 250mm Railgun I: 14.83 / 11.15
Tachyon Beam Laser I: 23.84 / 11.85
Mega Pulse Laser I: 22.26 / 11.06
Mega Beam Laser I: 21.42 / 10.65
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser I: 20.20 / 10.04
Dual Heavy Beam Laser I: 19.48 / 9.68
Dual 425mm AutoCannon I: 14.97 / 10.17
800mm Repeating Artillery I: 14.64 / 9.95
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery I: 14.37 / 9.76
1400mm Howitzer Artillery I: 11.12 / 7.55
1200mm Artillery Cannon I: 9.81 / 6.67
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.03.12 15:30:00 -
[21]
k I exagerated a little it's only 46% more. And blasters do a little more then a tachyon. Thanks j0sephine.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.03.13 00:00:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Quote:
3) No ship gets a damage or ROF bonus for lasers
correct me if im wrong but doesnt the Armageddon have an rof bonus to large laser turrets?
You're right... it does. Is this bonus new or have I just overlooked it somehow?
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