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TOP 10 GAME DESIGN INNOVATIONS 2007: #5 EVE

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SillyWaif Galactic Kingdom	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:16:00 - [1] Originally by: James Portnow (Updated: Tuesday, 11 December 2007) The best innovations this year came from some of the most likely places, and some less likely. Here are Next-Gen's Top 10 Game Design Innovations of 2007... 5. Second Genesis? - EvE Online: Trinity There are only two reasons why successful MMOs die out: either they become too complicated û and thus become inaccessible to new users û or they just start to look dated. CCP, the creators of EvE-Online have figured out a solution to the second problem, patch in a new graphics engine. While this may not seem like a design innovation, it opens up an important new possibility for gaming: the perpetual game. There is no reason why, if you are willing to give away major technological overhauls, you canÆt create a world that lasts for decades, perhaps centuries. Imagine having thirty years development time. Imagine what a world could be like after a quarter century of additional content and art. Imagine a living world filled not only with myth cycles and lore but history! For letting us dream EvE earns its place at number five. Article can be found here.
Snowcrash Winterheart2 Gallente Concordia Discors	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:36:00 - [2] It's an interesting point though. How long will EVE last? No, this isn't a "EVE is dieing" thing but assuming CCP is making a profit from EVE (fair assumption she's been going 4? 5 years?) is there ever a cut off point and "EVE 2: Electric Caldari" appears? Whilst those who have been playing continuously longer than me bemoan the noob SP hike on character creation... theoretically if such things continued in line with tech releases and the game remains profitable I can't honestly see an end to EVE. Just bolt on a DX11, DX13 engine on to it as RL technology moves along (or migrate to OpenGL and make OS X/Linux people really happy... couldn't resist...sorry). Which is cool. ----- Four paws... four sets of claws.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:36:00 - [3] EVE-O; Greatest Game or ... wait, no, that's it. - DesuSigs
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Snowcrash Winterheart2 It's an interesting point though. How long will EVE last? No, this isn't a "EVE is dieing" thing but assuming CCP is making a profit from EVE (fair assumption she's been going 4? 5 years?) is there ever a cut off point and "EVE 2: Electric Caldari" appears? Whilst those who have been playing continuously longer than me bemoan the noob SP hike on character creation... theoretically if such things continued in line with tech releases and the game remains profitable I can't honestly see an end to EVE. Just bolt on a DX11, DX13 engine on to it as RL technology moves along (or migrate to OpenGL and make OS X/Linux people really happy... couldn't resist...sorry). Which is cool. actually, considering all the patches, content updates, improvements and radical changes that EVE has undergowing in these 4 years, I think that, atm, EVE is, infact, EVE 3. why? EVE2 was exodus. it brought major changes to the game, specially in the department of improving 0.0. EVE3 or Trinity (coincidence? probably), is actually the gfx overhaul. --- planetary interaction idea!
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:58:00 - [5] I predict that EVE will be around for at least another 5 years, if not double that. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:00:00 - [6] I take it that writer doesn't typically play MMOs. Eve isn't doing anything special. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Snowcrash Winterheart2 Gallente Concordia Discors	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:10:00 - [7] Sounds about right from my experience (first appeared here during Exodus/Cold War cross-over). I wonder what EVE 6 will look like/be like.... hmm. I know there are other space MMO's coming out but none of them seem to be in the same league or go to the same depth as EVE does... and their missing the fact their game's logo doesn't kinda look like the old Firebird/Elite logo; wonder why that is Here's a question for CCP, how long did you guys think EVE would last and what do you think she'll be like in (picks random figure) 5 years time? ----- Four paws... four sets of claws.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Nyphur I take it that writer doesn't typically play MMOs. Eve isn't doing anything special. please link other mmorpg doing this please. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:15:00 - [9] If this is eve 3 then we should have shelled up 50 bucks for eve 1 eve 2 and eve 3. And for the people that say it has been done before, link me pics of a before and after with as big a difference gfx update that is totally free to boot as eve, i know ac did it wow did it but far as i know you have to buy the expansion with the tweaked textures and models. but if there is an mmo out there that gave its customers with a entirely new gfx engine, not just a tweaked one, and also gave it for free please share the pics.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Nito Musashi If this is eve 3 then we should have shelled up 50 bucks for eve 1 eve 2 and eve 3. And for the people that say it has been done before, link me pics of a before and after with as big a difference gfx update that is totally free to boot as eve, i know ac did it wow did it but far as i know you have to buy the expansion with the tweaked textures and models. but if there is an mmo out there that gave its customers with a entirely new gfx engine, not just a tweaked one, and also gave it for free please share the pics. no wow only increase the rez of two areas... 2! increasing 2 areas texture rez doesn't count. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:21:00 - [11] Edited by: Nyphur on 13/12/2007 00:23:28 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Nyphur I take it that writer doesn't typically play MMOs. Eve isn't doing anything special. please link other mmorpg doing this please. Doing what? Running an MMO that lasts over four years? Everquest 1 is still going, Ultima Online is still going in some form and Runescape has been running since I was a little. In fact, runescape has been growing just as steadily as Eve-Online has and just passed a million paying subscriptions. Just because the more popular MMOs recently like WoW have sacrificed the game's longterm sustainability doesn't mean CCP not following suit is anything amazing. Every MMO company hopes their game world will last forever and every MMO company worth ** updates their game over time (though most charge for content updates). The writer of this article clearly wrote it from a general gaming perspective as opposed to an MMO perspective. CCP are just another MMO development company. Originally by:** Nito Musashi but if there is an mmo out there that gave its customers with a entirely new gfx engine, not just a tweaked one, and also gave it for free please share the pics. It's probably not what you're expecting but Runescape did just this. They also release free content expansions regularly and quite often. They do a lot of what Eve and arguably Everquest 1 have done to be successful in the longterm. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Nyphur I take it that writer doesn't typically play MMOs. Eve isn't doing anything special. Originally by: article There is no reason why, if you are willing to give away major technological overhauls Listing of games that have given away major overhauls of the engine begins now! 1: EVE-Online - DesuSigs
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:27:00 - [13] Edited by: MotherMoon on 13/12/2007 00:26:50 oh oh oh!!!!! 2.runescape :P Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:36:00 - [14] Originally by: article TOP 10 GAME DESIGN INNOVATIONS 2007 Was runescape done in 2007? If so, fail article fails. - DesuSigs
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: article TOP 10 GAME DESIGN INNOVATIONS 2007 Was runescape done in 2007? If so, fail article fails. the artilcle doesn't list runescape :P but you asked for games that have given away graphical updates :P so dispite my hate for the game. I had to list it becuase it did. it used to be even uglyier! and I think you can still play the old one... Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:47:00 - [16] 30 years of development time. That might be enough time to fix drones and POSes. Farham: "Remember, sometimes evolution ends in extinction."
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:48:00 - [17] Originally by: NATMav 30 years of development time. That might be enough time to fix drones and POSes. Hey, my drones have behaved perfectly after Trinity, I don't know what you're talking about. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:50:00 - [18] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: NATMav 30 years of development time. That might be enough time to fix drones and POSes. Hey, my drones have behaved perfectly after Trinity, I don't know what you're talking about. I've had to chase mine down a time or two. Farham: "Remember, sometimes evolution ends in extinction."
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:56:00 - [19] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 13/12/2007 00:26:50 oh oh oh!!!!! 2.runescape :P Beat me to it. I should also mention that Runescape and Eve show the same player growth pattern but runescape's is much steeper as their development cycle is much shorter. Eve's development cycle can be measured in years. A typical game's growth cycle starts with a huge spike as the game makes its initial sales and then starts to drop off. As expansions are released, the game's userbase spikes again while the expansion sells and then starts falling again. Most decent MMOs don't follow this pattern and since the articlewriter seems to be taking the stance that the fact eve-online is keeping its game up to date and popular in the long-run is some amazing thing, I surmise that he doesn't typically examine MMOs at all. Take a look at this chart, which shows that while a lot of these MMOs follow the same growth pattern as the typical game as described above, some do not. Tibia and Dofus followed the same growth pattern until 2006 (no info availible since then) and http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1_files/Subscriptions_8846_image001.gifthis graph[/url shows that Ultima Online, Everquest and Runescape also followed the same pattern. While I've never played Tibia or Dofus, I can guarantee you that Runescape's success is down to a number of the same factors as Eve-Online. Free updates (including a free complete overhaul of the graphics engine), a server model that allows anyone to play with anyone else and the constant development of new content are the key factors and these stem from a design ethos that favours the long-term success of the game over short-term saleability. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: article TOP 10 GAME DESIGN INNOVATIONS 2007 Was runescape done in 2007? If so, fail article fails. That's not what you asked. You asked for contributions to a list of games that had given away a complete graphical engine overhaul and runescape did this. The fact that it was not done in 2007 just says that it wasn't eligible to be in the article, which was not the point being made at all. Rather, the point being made was that the articlewriter cited eve's complete graphical overhaul and a commitment to long-term development as being innovation when it has in fact been done long before CCP were doing their thing and the commitment to long-term development is one of many typical standard practices in the MMO genre. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Tressin Khiyne Minmatar Interstellar Vacation Center	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:57:00 - [20] I believe Runescape has been around for something like 10 years, which is epic compared to the average MMO. So even if they did do a major overhaul on their graphics, they're still going which only furthers the point. What really needs to be discussed is a game that did a major gfx overhaul and then failed. -- There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:58:00 - [21] Isn't Runescape a 2-dimensional game? If so I don't think we're talking about the same scope, even if they created an entirely new engine as well. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:02:00 - [22] Edited by: Nyphur on 13/12/2007 01:04:06 Edited by: Nyphur on 13/12/2007 01:03:28 Originally by: Tressin Khiyne I believe Runescape has been around for something like 10 years, which is epic compared to the average MMO. So even if they did do a major overhaul on their graphics, they're still going which only furthers the point. What really needs to be discussed is a game that did a major gfx overhaul and then failed. There probably are some. Apparantly Ultima Online's 3D client had a huge detrimental effect on the subscriber numbers and people playing on emulated servers these days almost always opt to use the old 2D client. But I think the point is that a major graphical overhaul shows commitment to a longterm design strategy and that it's this strategy that is successful. In that way, any game that releases regular updates to their game to keep it current follows the same design pattern as Eve regardless of whether those updates are graphical overhauls or not. That design ethos itself is not innovative, nor did CCP pioneer it, but I am damn glad they use it. Originally by: Tarminic Isn't Runescape a 2-dimensional game? If so I don't think we're talking about the same scope, even if they created an entirely new engine as well. It's been proper 3D for a long time, though the quality is quite low due to being a java Applet. I've always wondered why they don't release an advanced client with good graphics but that's not really the point. It's an MMO with over a million paying subscribers currently which has seen constant growth over the past few years and has many of the same development characteristics as Eve. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Tressin Khiyne Minmatar Interstellar Vacation Center	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Tressin Khiyne I believe Runescape has been around for something like 10 years, which is epic compared to the average MMO. So even if they did do a major overhaul on their graphics, they're still going which only furthers the point. What really needs to be discussed is a game that did a major gfx overhaul and then failed. There probably are some. Apparantly Ultima Online's 3D client had a huge detrimental effect on the subscriber numbers and people playing on emulated servers these days almost always opt to use the old 2D client. But I think the point is that a major graphical overhaul shows commitment to a longterm design strategy and that it's this strategy that is successful. In that way, any game that releases regular updates to their game to keep it current follows the same design pattern as Eve regardless of whether those updates are graphical overhauls or not. That design ethos itself is not innovative, nor did CCP pioneer it, but I am damn glad they use it. Yeah, but UO's 3d engine is... well... crap. Even so, your own graphs show an increase in subscriptions over the last year or so, not the death of a community. -- There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:07:00 - [24] Edited by: Nyphur on 13/12/2007 01:07:54 Originally by: Tressin Khiyne Yeah, but UO's 3d engine is... well... crap. Even so, your own graphs show an increase in subscriptions over the last year or so, not the death of a community. That's the point, if it had been good then it would have kept the game going. It's just another extension strategy exactly the same as any other MMO uses when they launch expansions or provide updates. EDIT: And I don't know WHEN the 3D client was released so I can't point out its effects on the graph, sorry. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Tressin Khiyne Minmatar Interstellar Vacation Center	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:13:00 - [25] I think we're arguing the same point.... -- There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Gner Dechast Gallente Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:14:00 - [26] Originally by: NATMav 30 years of development time. That might be enough time to fix drones and POSes. Althou, after 4 years, drones FINALLY seem to work as you would expect them. Here's for wishing that POS'es, once 4 years old, are finally working ...now I wish no dev ever touches any of the drone code again. Most preferrably, doesn't even go close to it. If they do, they should get electrocuted.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Nyphur That's not what you asked. You asked for contributions to a list of games that had given away a complete graphical engine overhaul and runescape did this. The fact that it was not done in 2007 just says that it wasn't eligible to be in the article, which was not the point being made at all. Rather, the point being made was that the articlewriter cited eve's complete graphical overhaul and a commitment to long-term development as being innovation when it has in fact been done long before CCP were doing their thing and the commitment to long-term development is one of many typical standard practices in the MMO genre. I was asking with regard to the article, and had to qualify my question further when it turned out another game met the criterion I originally put forth. The only point I was trying to make is that EVE is a valid entry on their list, which obviously it wouldn't be if another game did the same thing at the same time. Their point is of course invalid if another game has done it in the past, which one has, however since the article also cites the reuse of an old way of doing things as innovation (Mass Effect), I wouldn't take their definition of innovation too seriously. - DesuSigs
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Gner Dechast Originally by: NATMav 30 years of development time. That might be enough time to fix drones and POSes. Althou, after 4 years, drones FINALLY seem to work as you would expect them. Here's for wishing that POS'es, once 4 years old, are finally working ...now I wish no dev ever touches any of the drone code again. Most preferrably, doesn't even go close to it. If they do, they should get electrocuted. I gotta say that yes. drones FINALLY work as intended. and it only took 4 years! --- planetary interaction idea!
Saori Rei Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:38:00 - [29] Ultima Online is the only other MMORPG that developed greatly over the years INCLUDING a big graphical update or two.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 01:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Nyphur on 13/12/2007 01:40:53 Originally by: Crumplecorn I was asking with regard to the article, and had to qualify my question further when it turned out another game met the criterion I originally put forth. Does this mean that you only asked the question because you thought there was nothing that met the criteria provided and when provided with one, you decided to change the criteria? Originally by: Crumplecorn The only point I was trying to make is that EVE is a valid entry on their list, which obviously it wouldn't be if another game did the same thing at the same time. Innovation refers to something new that hasn't been done before. If runescape had released their graphical overhaul in 2007, eve's would actually still be innovation since it hadn't been done before and both were working on it at the same time. The fact that runescape did theirs first is precisely WHY eve doing it is not innovative. Originally by: Crumplecorn Their point is of course invalid if another game has done it in the past, which one has, however since the article also cites the reuse of an old way of doing things as innovation (Mass Effect), I wouldn't take their definition of innovation too seriously. Exactly my point. Replace "innovation" with "stuff I liked" and the article makes a whole lot more sense. Also, as I pointed out, the second half of that section of the article deals with this wonderous possibility of a game that survives in the long-term as if keeping your game up to date to keep players interested is something new to gaming. Whether or not keeping your game up to date means releasing new graphics or just releasing a new content makes no difference, it's still updating the game and using a long-term design strategy and that strategy is older than CCP. The fact the writer thought this was something new just shows that he doesn't have the experience to make these kinds of judgements on the MMO genre and that devalues his opinion in this case. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.

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