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Lasers: the outsider's evaluation

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Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:26:00 - [1] Up until recently I had tried all the races except amarr, so I decided to give it a go. If for nothing, then at least I'd have some inside knowledge about all the amarr whine threads constantly appearing on these forums. And here's my impressions about lasers... Pros: No ammo/reload Instant crystal replacement, hence dictating range easily Good range, even with multifrequency Tracking Cons: Cap usage Poor damage I chose not to have the restrictive dmg types as a con or a pro, since that's a part of the game as such. But frankly, I feel somewhat relieved not to have to choose, I just choose based on the range of the engagements. (Same goes for gallente for that matter). All and all, I feel that most of these advantages and disadvantages negate one another, except one: The lack of damage. This is also tied to the ship's bonuses. Let's take the Harbinger e.g. Even with its 5% dmg bonus / lvl, it still has crappy dmg output - in fact, I get half the dmg from my drones! How can this be? All the time I've been hearing about lasers excellent base dmg which seems nothing more than a fallacy. Another excellent example is the Prophecy, which doesn't receive any dmg bonuses. This ship delivers, with its lasers, cruiser-like dmg. Furthermore, there is no need to do the ever-boring comparison to gallente; they have good dmg but at very limited ranges and situations. But it seems that laser dmg is below par somehow, but that's just the outsider's perspective. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Niffetin Gallente CONsordium Infinate	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:32:00 - [2] Edited by: Niffetin on 13/12/2007 11:32:59 Yea, poor damage. BOOST AMARR!!! MY GEDDON ONLY DOES 1200 DPS!!!! You are clueless if you say Amarr suck... WTS: Armageddon / Void L / Mobile Large Warp Disruptor
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:37:00 - [3] nope didn't say amarr sucks just shared my evaluation. I actually fell in love with amarr but I don't believe the good-base-dmg-hype. So it wasn't intended as a conclusion about that amarr needs a boost. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Alyth Gallente Dichotomy Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:38:00 - [4] Edited by: Alyth on 13/12/2007 11:38:20 Originally by: Wideen Well thought out stuff. Laser damage is nowhere near below par, they have some of the best unboosted damage in the game. The only thing wrong with lasers is EANM II and EM armour compensation imho. Maybe the cap bonus but that could be argued back and forth for all eternity.
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:41:00 - [5] I lol'd at that quote Anyways, it just seemed to me that could be the case since I can't manage to squeeze out any decent dmg. Although I must admit I only have energy turret to lvl 4, but it still seemed low. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Neon Razor Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:41:00 - [6] They do great damage but were not helped by omni tanks which boosat EM resist on armor over 80% on armor tanks and over 60% on shield tanks. abbadon does over 1200 dps geddon does over 1200 dps raw damage is not something amarr lacks. There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons.
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:44:00 - [7] In that case, I stand corrected. Experienced amarr pilots should know better than one who recently started, maybe my first impressions were off then... Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:45:00 - [8] damage is not what amarr lacks :) i assure u this.... geddon and abaddon are proven at that :) now cap usage... yes.. but i love no reloads :) i havent really ever had cap problems whit any ship except the abaddon :P that was due to my fittings tho. 2x rep + 8 pulse.... cant run that :P ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
Alyth Gallente Dichotomy Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Wideen I lol'd at that quote Although I must admit I only have energy turret to lvl 4, but it still seemed low. <Mythbuster>Well there's yer problem</Mythbuster>. If you really want to do decent damage with lasers then you absolutely, positively REQUIRE Tech II lasers. The difference in damage can be unbelievable. Also as previously mentioned, the only thing wrong with Amarr damage is base resistances. Armour EM resistance is already stupidly high (as is explosive on shield but the other weapons that deal explosive damage do so in large amounts. That and explosive damage is not tanked anywhere near as hard as EM is.) which pre-nerfs your damage. Sure you could have 1200 raw DPS but a simple EANM II and DCU II added to an armour tank slices that damage down by about 80%. I emphasise armour tanks over shield tanks as those are what you see primarily in PvP.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:52:00 - [10] Originally by: Wideen The lack of damage. This is also tied to the ship's bonuses. Let's take the Harbinger e.g. Even with its 5% dmg bonus / lvl, it still has crappy dmg output - in fact, I get half the dmg from my drones! How can this be? All the time I've been hearing about lasers excellent base dmg which seems nothing more than a fallacy. What are your skills, which laser variant were you using with which crystal against which enemy? Or are you deducting from EFT?

HEINZ ZERO PsyCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:52:00 - [11] most Amarr ships are ok at close range.. but not when you try to fit these ships for fleet fights
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys Monkey Religion	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Wideen Pros: Tracking Wait, what? Pulses have the worst tracking of any short-range weapon. ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:57:00 - [13] There's a reason why you pick geddon and abaddon... Try give Amarr at a cruiser stage a comparisson instead? DPS is a very blunt tool. If you start comparing the same numbers with tanks included. Or compare their performance. A great ship to prove this point is the Prophecy. Let a projetile based proph battle a laserfitted one, and see what the verdict is? And that is with the lasers having bonuses, the Projectiles without. Yes, Amarr can dash out some 1200 dps, and even more, from a geddon or abaddon, but what are their tanks like while doing so? And their cap? Try a capstable setup with an active tank and compare again? No one part about the amarr is increadibly subpar. But everyting added up. They're slightly weaker to ew than the other races, no biggie, but coupled with their lack of midslots and capdependancy, and lack of speed... They're simply a step below all the other races - that doesn't mean they don't have an array of decent ships and situations where they can perform. Postcount: 814518
Neon Razor Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:04:00 - [14] i fly amarr ships and actuallt like maller and omen for pvp. we have something for everybody these days amarr use lasers drones missiles armor tank and shield tank. Active tank is not always the best way foward a passive tanked abbadon will kill any active tanked abbadon every day of the week. Yes cap boosters are our best friends. in fleet amarr are also great with the geddon which comes in at less than 100mill for a fully tech 2 fitted sniper BS that can hit at over 180km. TBH i like it when people say that amarr are crap and nobody should train them because when you spec in them you realise that they are great but they do take a lot of SP to get to that stage There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons.
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:07:00 - [15] I can't be bothered to quote so I'll just answer... When I tried the Prophecy and Harb I used the best named pulse lasers, the heavier ones (still haven't memorized all the names) and amarr navy MF, so my equip wasn't off, maybe just that I can't use t2 yet is my only problem. And tracking... I've experienced great tracking! no matter how fast I flew by I still hit my target but perhaps not everyone agrees but I've enjoyed the tracking. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Dillius Archania Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Neon Razor i fly amarr ships and actuallt like maller and omen for pvp. we have something for everybody these days amarr use lasers drones missiles armor tank and shield tank. Active tank is not always the best way foward a passive tanked abbadon will kill any active tanked abbadon every day of the week. Yes cap boosters are our best friends. in fleet amarr are also great with the geddon which comes in at less than 100mill for a fully tech 2 fitted sniper BS that can hit at over 180km. TBH i like it when people say that amarr are crap and nobody should train them because when you spec in them you realise that they are great but they do take a lot of SP to get to that stage What kind of Omen and Maller fits you use for PvP? Seriously? In my experience Omen is decent as a cheapo for small gang situations, just hard as crap to fit, but I've never found a Maller build I liked that didn't involve autocannons. As for the Abaddon and Geddon, even the most outspoken pro-Amarr whiners agree that those two ships are perfectly fine.
Mis Sle	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:12:00 - [17] Lasers do not support the market. As in all things follow the money uh isk. What weapon's ammo cost the most to build ? What ammo is the strongest? Lasers, you buy the gun and the crystal one time and you are done. How are you going to feed the poor miner's family like that. Eve is a player based game but CCP still controls the game with nerfs. If the market falls EVE will fall. That being said make crystals decay over 200 uses and with shards of the crystal in the light stream give it another damnage type. ( em sucks )
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Wideen Pros: No ammo/reload Instant crystal replacement, hence dictating range easily Good range, even with multifrequency Tracking Cons: Cap usage Poor damage I chose not to have the restrictive dmg types as a con or a pro, since that's a part of the game as such. My rating of lasers (for PvP) is this: If you are dead at the end of the fight, that will cost you a lot more than ammo. But note, faction Crystals do get used up. So there is an ammo cost if you want decent damage anytime before maxxing out your laser specialisation skills. Reload is calculated into DPS: it is irrelevant. Laser range has no helpful effect on PvP. In fact I rate it a con, because what you pay for that range is lower damage and higher energy cost. Tracking is average, but go on to next point. Amarr ships spend their bonuses compensating for low damage and high energy costs. The Apoc is the classic example. At a modest BS4 you get your pulse laser energy costs to be the same as the energy costs per second for the comparable hybrid boat, while they are free to deploy their ship bonuses into damage and tracking! And therein the issue: Amarr ships put their bonuses into compensating for cons, which are design-wise balanced against pros that are not pros in PvP. It's difficult to fit an MWD onto an Amarr laser boat without a cap issues, so the only way you have of controlling range is through crystals, which is inadequate. Your opponent will choose the range and if you are lucky you can still fight okay at that range. The restrictive damage types also hurt. Against a wide range of T2 ships you are going to be doing terrible damage against their innates with no opportunity to adjust. A fix to lasers would be to allow pilots to emphasise either EM or Thermal, to reduce energy costs so the Amarr can think about sacrificing cap to other things, to increase the range change time while reducing the number of crystal types with overlapping range increments. The ammo point? Well, I'll tell you what - let me blow up your boat and then you tell me whether it's really the ammo you cared about? -BW
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Brother Welcome Laser range has no helpful effect on PvP. In fact I rate it a con, because what you pay for that range is lower damage and higher energy cost. ............... The ammo point? Well, I'll tell you what - let me blow up your boat and then you tell me whether it's really the ammo you cared about? -BW You don't consider it beneficial to be able to fight at multiple ranges by switching crystals in an instant? and all other races get affected too, when going for dmg OR range, but still won't leave you sitting there without the ability to hit anything. As for the second part of the quote, didn't rly see your point. Of course it's not the ammo that's gonna bother me if I get blown up? but that wasn't part of my argument either Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:31:00 - [20] Edited by: N1fty on 13/12/2007 12:33:50 Pros: No ammo/reload T2/Faction ammo expires, you have to carry around effectively more ammo (in terms of ISK) than other races. Instant crystal replacement, hence dictating range easily Its far from instant. Theres no way of switching crystals on up to 8 guns in under 10 seconds. By that time the enemies range is different. And dont forget that T2/Faction ammo is horribly bugged, you can't restack it, when switching crystals turrets will often steal crystals off eachother, meaning you have to go back and redo it. Simply put, if your Amarr and find yourself changing ammo, you did something wrong. Good range, even with multifrequency Yep Lasers get good optimals, Amarr sniper ships do good DPS, but cap out very fast. Tracking Tracking is good too, hitting ships consistently is a bonus. But its a wasted bonus when the enemy is speedtanking. Cons: Cap usage Yep, a few minutes of gank or tank is what you can hope for on most fittings. Poor damage Its not hugely poor damage, its just some of the high EM resistance ships and setups we have at the moment. =============================================

Minmatar Citizen 4521577	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:33:00 - [21] Originally by: NoNah No one part about the amarr is increadibly subpar. But everyting added up. They're slightly weaker to ew than the other races, no biggie, Slightly weaker to EW than minmatar? In which way?
Neon Razor Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Dillius Archania What kind of Omen and Maller fits you use for PvP? Seriously? In my experience Omen is decent as a cheapo for small gang situations, just hard as crap to fit, but I've never found a Maller build I liked that didn't involve autocannons. As for the Abaddon and Geddon, even the most outspoken pro-Amarr whiners agree that those two ships are perfectly fine. TBH i have not flown them in a while as i have a complex and refuse to fly anything smaller than a BS unless it is tech 2. There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 4521577 Originally by: NoNah No one part about the amarr is increadibly subpar. But everyting added up. They're slightly weaker to ew than the other races, no biggie, Slightly weaker to EW than minmatar? In which way? Tracking disruptors have the heavyest Effect on Lasers because of Tracking/Opimal Balace of Lasers. Damps are also a big Problem because you can¦t dedicate Range most of the Time with a Amarr Ship and because of Tracking you won¦t have a disadvantage on Point Blank range to get a lock again. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Dahak2150 Wait, what? Pulses have the worst tracking of any short-range weapon. ...but much better range. Pulses aren't really close-range weapons, more "mid-range", making comparisons difficult. But compared with range, pulses have excellent tracking.
Emah Spina Chosen Path	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:11:00 - [25] Quote: Instant crystal replacement, hence dictating range easily You have not tried to change T2 lenses in a laggy fleet battle... If you dont drag the lenses down to the guns. Every gun will call for the first lense available. So all but one gun ends up without ammo
Wardeneo	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Wideen Up until recently I had tried all the races except amarr, so I decided to give it a go. If for nothing, then at least I'd have some inside knowledge about all the amarr whine threads constantly appearing on these forums. And here's my impressions about lasers... Pros: No ammo/reload - IF T1 CRYSTALS (T2 RUN OUT AFTER 1000 SHOTS) Instant crystal replacement, hence dictating range easily Good range, even with multifrequency Tracking Cons: Cap usage Poor damage - LASERS DO MORE DAMAGE THAN PROJECTILE WEAPONDS! also lasers gota cap reduction i think!
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Wardeneo also lasers gota cap reduction i think! The Cap Reduction is just needed to fire them without running out of Cap yust form Weapons very fast. Even with the Bonus Lasers take still a lot of Cap. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:55:00 - [28] As a Caldari, it's quite difficult to "judge" the "SP-to-dmg" equations Amarr ships and lasers require. Just as a Torp Raven supported by "Torps lvl II" and all relevant missile skills totaling ~600K SP (pre-Trinity) and could beat an Armageddon with more than 6M SP invested in Gunnery skills (+T1 heavies) when ratting Guristas...EFT warrior would say that this is impossible, as the RAW DPS of the Geddon almost doubles that of the Raven... The same goes for a Drake, in the same character, with way lower skills can outperform a Harbinger in most lvl 3s without even challenging it's T1 passive tank - even without 3x purger rigs and with an AB fitted...that's a sad fact for a fully T2 fitted Harbinger... Surely these are PvE situations, but at least you can be a bit more objective when judging thought them. Nevertheless, Amarr remain way more skill intensive to fly in PvP too. Maybe even more due to slot layouts etc...it's not just the skill training. Caldari are VERY noob-friendly, where Amarr surely aren't. I am he, the bornless one
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Madla Mafia on 13/12/2007 16:11:50 Edited by: Madla Mafia on 13/12/2007 16:11:17 Originally by: Niffetin Edited by: Niffetin on 13/12/2007 11:32:59 Yea, poor damage. BOOST AMARR!!! MY GEDDON ONLY DOES 1200 DPS!!!! You are clueless if you say Amarr suck... Yeah besides the fact that 1200dps would be hitting ships with high EM resistance, giving it a real dps of (insert crappy number). Boost Amarr, for real! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:21:00 - [30] Lasers supposedly have a built-in dmg bonus, but the Amarr laserboats without a ROF or damage bonus tend to suck (see: Prophecy, Apoc). That's because the built-in bonus doesn't compare to other races who get 25% more damage at ship skill lvl5 with their weapons... whereas certain Amarr ships just get more cap to shoot their guns at higher levels.



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