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3nkil
The Chocolate Factory
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Posted - 2007.12.14 11:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: 3nkil on 14/12/2007 11:56:59
It seems with more and more nerfs the lines between what kind of ships can do what gets more and more defined....pretty soon we are left with "classes" where you NEED so many of X class and so many of Y class just to do anything.
While we are are a long way from the above...it does raise the question weather or not that is where CCP wants the game to go to.
*cough cough carriers* , *HUGE buff to interceptors- why use anything else to tackle with until the bubbles can be launched/HICs get there*
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari
Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:00:00 -
[2]
All tech 2 and capital ships should have pretty well defined roles. Tech 1 ships are still very versatile and can be surprisingly effective if you're imaginitive with your fitting.
~Ryoji Tanakama
Daikoku Fleet Shipyards |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:01:00 -
[3]
The much larger problem is people getting dumber, and not figuring out how to be able to make more than one type of setup.
 Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Druadan
Gallente
Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:32:00 -
[4]
Yes, they are. Not nerfs in general, but the recent nerfs, yes.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:36:00 -
[5]
No, because when a ship is overpowered it becomes the obvious choice for many different roles, thus reducing ship variation.
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Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare |
Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:37:00 -
[6]
Yes.
All the ships are being pigeon holed into exactly one role, thus the variations of ways to fit a ship and still have it perform well are reduced more and more.
It takes a great deal of skill factor out of the game when you see a ship you'll know instantly not only what it's capable of, but how to counter it. Unless of course it has an honor tank or something equally stupid.
I don't mind if a ship's role can't be adapted much out in space, but while in the station, the possibilities should be less limited I think.
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Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
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Zenobite
Soliders Of Eve
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Xaen
Yes.
All the ships are being pigeon holed into exactly one role, thus the variations of ways to fit a ship and still have it perform well are reduced more and more.
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^That
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
The much larger problem is people getting dumber, and not figuring out how to be able to make more than one type of setup.
I genuinely mean you no offense when I say that imo, that is a sweeping generalization so unlikely to be the case that I don't think it's even worth the bother of refuting. So I'll instead assume you just had a bad day rather than that you came here with the express purpose of trolling.
Moving on... I totally agree with the OP. It would seem that many of the nerfs that have been introduced have been to expressly limit the types of setups a ship can usefully fit and the types of roles a ship can be feasibly used for. NOS nerf, ECM nerf, nano nerf, carrier nerf, drone nerf, damper nerf the list goes on. Notice I don't mention stuff like the Mrymidon or Eos since I don't put balancing changes into the same basket as nerfs intended to force players to use ships in particular ways rather than let players decide how to use ships for themselves.
So if it is indeed the case that CCP want to introduce something similar to WOW style classes to Eve by specialising ships to the point at which only one or two setups/roles are feasible. Then is it really the case that players are not coming up with creative setups which risk stepping outside those roles because they are stupid, or isn't it more likely the case that they are in fact being smart by not trying to get a ship to do what CCP hasn't expressly authorised that ship to be used for, since that would be stupidly swimming against the tide?
Because it seems that even if you spend years training to be able to use a ship in a clever and unexpected manner, you can really only expect to have all your effort wasted since CCP will nerf it to oblivion as soon as your victims start whining about it anyway.
Those people who come on this forum and express concern that they have specialized to use a certain ship in a certain way only to see it nerfed are universally answered with one piece of advise. Don't specialize!
Training for a setup that steps outside a ship's core role or that is on the fringe of that role is even more specialised that just training for that ship alone.
Ryoji's point that T1 ships are still very versatile does I think overstate the case and in no way mitigates the fact that with previously viable imaginative setups for T1 ships being nerfed because they are percieved to step outside that ship's newly constrained role, and new ship classes coming out which specialise every type of role you could possibly fit a T1 ship for anyway, ships are on the whole becoming much more specialised.
The 'buff' to interceptors is in fact my pet hate. Half the interceptors in the game have had a bonus that made them all somewhat different replaced with a blanket 'class' bonus. The Stiletto which used to be my favourite interceptor had characteristics peculiar to it that allowed for some imaginative setups. The extra mid slot meant that with a micro cap booster it could web, scram and run MWD continually and be unique among all interceptors by being completly cap stable. Now with the 'Propulsion Jamming Cap Use' class bonus they all are anyway. The Stiletto also used to have a falloff bonus which meant that with double webs it could dictate range against faster, more damaging and better tanking interceptors and yet still stand a chance in an inty dual despite only having 3 weapon hardpoints. Now with the inty changes it's just another tackler, and the only distinguishing thing about it is that it has one extra mid slot and does crap damage. Whatever else you might come up with to put in that mid slot has likely already been nerfed by the introduction of scripts and/or would be a role most likely better filled by something else, like one of the new highly specialised attack frigs for example.
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:42:00 -
[9]
I'm not saying that there are not any more imaginative setups left, but there are clearly less, they are harder to fit and less effective, and if an imaginative setup is found which does work well, expect it to be nerfed if it ever becomes popular.
Originally by: Tarminic
No, because when a ship is overpowered it becomes the obvious choice for many different roles, thus reducing ship variation.
I understand and agree with your point about balancing overpowered ships. But for nerfs to 'just' balance overpowered ships they have to be very judiciously applied, and I don't think that's happening. I don't think anyone would have said the Stiletto was previously overpowered but it has far less useful setups left to it after these changes (as do a great many other ships). The carrier being able to haul stuff might have made it popular and useful but it hardly made it overpowered.
We've had many new ships added in Trinity, but even if only half of them are highly specialised rather than versatile then that combined with the module nerfs I'd say makes it an open and shut case that ships are getting more specialised.
So what new Trinity ships are versatile rather than specialised then?
Intie changes = more specialised.
Electronic Attack Frigs = specialised.
Hactors = specialised.
Black Ops = specialised.
Marauders = very easily jammable, expensive, probably mission only usefulness, somewhat flexible fitting great you can stick some tractors and salvagers in the highs, I'd say specialised, but would conceed it's arguable.
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Pitt Bull
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:55:00 -
[10]
I know that its really easy to size up the enemy now, I know EXACTLY what works best on each ship, so I also know exactly how to counter it. Its not about the right fitting, its about the right fleet. Its not about the most powerful ship, its about the most powerful combination of ships. Solo play died long ago.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 16:00:00 -
[11]
No most of the nerfs encourage more variety in ships and setups.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Pitt Bull
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2007.12.14 16:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Esmenet
No most of the nerfs encourage more variety in ships and setups.
You should explain your theory. It sounds like a blind idea without much thought. In fact, nerfing the ships and changing their bonuses around just changes how they fit into fleet combat. Each ship has a more unique role, so in fact, you are limiting the number of fittings for each ship.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 16:12:00 -
[13]
Well the nerfs are for fotm ships/modules.
For example the myrmidon was wastly better than the other battlecruisers. Nerfing that inline with the rest encourages people to use the others too. More variety.
NOS was practically required on any and all ships pre nerf, now its just one option.
etc...
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:14:00 -
[14]
You think it's variety because more people fly ships with different names, even if they are all essentially identical in capability? I don't get that one.
Different ships AND races ought to have differnt strengths and weaknesses. If not, all you're doing is flying the same ship, in the same characters, with different models and textures thrown over them. What's the point of choosing anything then?
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Mag's
MASS
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:19:00 -
[15]
I understand the need for change in certain situations.
But when I want to open a nut, I use nut cr4ckers, not sledgehammers.
Mag's
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Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:40:00 -
[16]
For a short one word answer.
Yes.
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Micheal Dietrich
Cynical Cartel
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:56:00 -
[17]
Lack of player adaptation and creativity is leading to a less dynamic game.
FOTM FTL
___________________________
Originally by: ISD Santiago Cortes
*Locked*
Blew through off-topic boulevard and ended up in flamebait crescent.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 18:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
You think it's variety because more people fly ships with different names, even if they are all essentially identical in capability? I don't get that one.
Different ships AND races ought to have differnt strengths and weaknesses. If not, all you're doing is flying the same ship, in the same characters, with different models and textures thrown over them. What's the point of choosing anything then?
I dont know what game you are playing, but yes flying different ships with different names are better than everyone flying the exact same ship with the same setup.
There are quite large differences in the ships strenghts and weaknesses but the overall strenght of the ships in the same class should be fairly similar or there is absolutely no reason to use any of the others.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.12.14 18:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Drek Grapper on 14/12/2007 18:11:28
The problem with nerfs are that CCP tend to swing a very large bat very fast without really thinking too much about where the ball is gonna end up. 
Nerfs would be ok if they weren't so crippling. 
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'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.14 18:25:00 -
[20]
Nobody wants one ship from a particular class to be flown to the exclusion of any other ship from that class. If the Myrmidon and Eos fell into that category then changes specific to those ships were appropriate (it could be argued that the specific changes were somewhat extreme but that's a different issue) and no one here has any problem with that in principal. Although I have to say I've always seen plenty of Drakes, Hurricanes, Claymores and Sleipnirs.
If sensor damps were overpowered compared to all other EWAR, then by all means tweak it.
But the introduction of scripts across the board has horribly nerfed a lot of modules that nobody has ever complained were overpowered. Sensor boosters, tracking computers, tracking links, tracking disruptors. Not to mention creating a lot of unwanted micro management. The UI is bad enough as it is without me needing to have to switch different scripts into 4 separate mid slot modules as well as having to switch ammo types whenever a target moves closer or further away.
The interceptor 'buff' was quite unnecessary, they were already the best tacklers in the game. Previously a well fitted BS (with a heavy neut) at least stood a chance of escaping from a single interceptor, but now that the inty can scram it from so far away the situtation has been contrived to make a single BS totally helpless against one lone interceptor.
Was this done because all BS were totally overpowered solopwnmobiles? Hardly, it appears to have been done to ensure that no BS ever goes anywhere by itself ever again. Reinforcing the situation that to even travel from one station to another you need one of this type of ship and one of that type of ship and so on ad nauseam. Just like every WOW gang doing an instance has to have at least one priest or whatever (or so I've heard).
And so we have yet another nerf to solo PvP, as if such a thing existed anymore anyway. And yes I kmow it's an MMORPG, but that doesn't necessarily mean we all have to take sides and blob up. Everyone against everyone else (solo PvP) is just as much MMORPG as one half of all the players on the server against the other half. Plus it's far more in keeping with the original 'Elite in space' feeling of Eve which is what I personally favour, and imo a damn sight more fun.
A lot of these changes are not nerfing overpowered FOTM imbalances at all. And making sweeping changes like this rather than delicate tweaks has the side effect of rendering a lot of previously interesting fittings useless except on specialised ships. Hence we end up with all ships being very restrictively and predicatably fitted, more interdependent on each other, and Eve gets more like 'WOW in space' with each subsequent patch.
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3nkil
The Chocolate Factory
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:36:00 -
[21]
thanks for the replys guys- glad to see im not alone in this 
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2007.12.15 09:35:00 -
[22]
Yes. A long time ago, you could take a ship hull and do lots of interesting things with it. But over the years more and more of those interesting, unusual, shouldnt-work-but-miraculously-does fittings have gotten nerfed so each ship is left with 1-2 setups that actually work. I agree that T2 ships should be very, very specialized to the point of having major weaknesses so they dont totally own T1 (this is the reason I have issues with AF HAC and now heavy dictor) but these blanket nerfs hit T1 just as hard as T2. The damper nerf for instance has destroyed a whole lot of T1 fits that rely on some EW to offset a lack of gank-n-tank effectiveness.
It definitely looks like we're heading toward a class system like other MMOGs. Hopefully CCP will see the light before its too late, I like eve and would rather it not devolve to the point of being made obsolete when the Next Big MMO(tm) gets released.
_________________
[SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler
Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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Vaal Erit
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Posted - 2007.12.15 10:03:00 -
[23]
This is a strange by-product of the trinity game changes. People whining that the game is not "dynamic" or whatever.
Really? After the trinity changes? You guys are all on ***** *******.
-How EXACTLY has the Myrm/Eos/drones changed ship fittings? You are still fitting this ship basically the same.
-Script changes? Well, RSDs are no longer the wtfpwn module, now you can either fit for anti-range and fit medium range setups or fit for lock time which can be crucial to survival. The only thing changed here is that you cannot copy a setup from someone else and hit all of your RSDs and laugh at your enemy. Now you must fight. Good change.
-Other Scripts? Sensor boosters and TDs got hit, but the effects are a lot less than the whiners think. Snipers have to fit SBs for range so every sniper is locking at the same rate so nothing has changed here, what has changed is that you can have fast tackle or long range. You can also adapt and fit locking time scripts and get a closer sniper spot so you can do drive-by sniper runs a lot more effectively. Snipers can't wtfpwn smaller ships as easy anymore, hooray. TDs got hit but how many people use TDs? If you did then you'd know they are still good on a bonused ship and get their intended job done very well.
RevII(or was it revI) that changed Istab BSs and NOS changed far more setups than Trinity. Hell, the torpedo changes are making people try out new PvP raven fits, hooray for a new pvp ship to play with/against.
For the short bus people:
Eve-Online has always had only a few roles a ship can achieve: Damage, tanking, ewar, speed, stealth, drones, support. None of these have been nerfed in Trinity, I just don't get it why the Myrmidon's drone bay being changed = omg the whole game is sh*t.
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burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2007.12.15 10:14:00 -
[24]
How about just getting on with it instead of stressing over supposed nerfs?
Seriously, unless you exclusively fly the flavor of the month ships, you hardly notice the "nerfs". It's more like, meh something changed, righto, carry on.... |
3nkil
The Chocolate Factory
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Posted - 2007.12.15 10:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
This is a strange by-product of the trinity game changes. People whining that the game is not "dynamic" or whatever.
Really? After the trinity changes? You guys are all on ***** *******.
-How EXACTLY has the Myrm/Eos/drones changed ship fittings? You are still fitting this ship basically the same.
-Script changes? Well, RSDs are no longer the wtfpwn module, now you can either fit for anti-range and fit medium range setups or fit for lock time which can be crucial to survival. The only thing changed here is that you cannot copy a setup from someone else and hit all of your RSDs and laugh at your enemy. Now you must fight. Good change.
-Other Scripts? Sensor boosters and TDs got hit, but the effects are a lot less than the whiners think. Snipers have to fit SBs for range so every sniper is locking at the same rate so nothing has changed here, what has changed is that you can have fast tackle or long range. You can also adapt and fit locking time scripts and get a closer sniper spot so you can do drive-by sniper runs a lot more effectively. Snipers can't wtfpwn smaller ships as easy anymore, hooray. TDs got hit but how many people use TDs? If you did then you'd know they are still good on a bonused ship and get their intended job done very well.
RevII(or was it revI) that changed Istab BSs and NOS changed far more setups than Trinity. Hell, the torpedo changes are making people try out new PvP raven fits, hooray for a new pvp ship to play with/against.
For the short bus people:
Eve-Online has always had only a few roles a ship can achieve: Damage, tanking, ewar, speed, stealth, drones, support. None of these have been nerfed in Trinity, I just don't get it why the Myrmidon's drone bay being changed = omg the whole game is sh*t.
woah woah woah...settle down bro!
I'm just asking if the game (from the initial release) is starting to take a more
"use this ship with this setup, and only this setup" feel to it. Just want some feedback- not flamin!
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Man'corr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.12.15 11:05:00 -
[26]
I guess it also boils down to this:
The older EVE gets the better people become at maxfitting a certain ship. Someone said if he sees a ship, he knows what the best fit would be. Thats correct every ship has some BEST Fitting. You need to be able to cut some corners and get a less than 100% maximum efficiency fitting to get something different. (Looking at some Trading Card games, its nearly the same, at tourneys it can happen that only 2-3 deck types are present with 8 people playing the top games). Maybe Eve is going down this road too? People pushing for the maximum envelope on certain ships only have a very limited number of fittings available.
Oh and the nerfs.
And all of this would not apply to T2 Ships, theyre supposed to be rolespecific ships. Well mostly. I mean what are Intys supposed to do ^^.
All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk
Back after a 4 Year Hiatus. Damn whats Capital ships? |
Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.15 14:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
-How EXACTLY has the Myrm/Eos/drones changed ship fittings?
and...
Originally by: Vaal Erit
I just don't get it why the Myrmidon's drone bay being changed = omg the whole game is sh*t.
Wow. You really didn't need to read the thread at all to come out with that nonsense did you. You just logged in and spouted whatever came into your head first, bravo.
However if you had actually read and understood the thread you might have noticed that the only person who agrees with the premise that ships are becoming more specialized who mentioned the Myrm and Eos was me, and my point (which nobody else seems to have had any problem understanding) was to expressly differentiate between those balancing changes (which most people have no problem with) and the more general nerfs that negatively effect ships that nobody has ever suggested were imbalanced in the first place.
Originally by: Vaal Erit
RSDs are no longer the wtfpwn module
I wasn't aware they were tbh, but I have already conceeded that if they needed balancing they should also be tweaked. A bit strange that they should nerf these so harshly at exactly the same time as they give a huge buff to ECM though. I wonder how that will turn out.
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Snipers can't wtfpwn smaller ships as easy anymore
Could they ever? I'm pretty sure a Taranis will absolutely r4pe a sniper fitted BS. The only situation where an interceptor is in any danger from a sniper BS is if it is sitting at the optimal of the BS with low transversal, which is not where an interceptor would normally be in a battle anyway.
I certainly haven't seen any gangs of unsupported sniper BS roaming around ganking anything smaller and faster than them.
Originally by: Vaal Erit
TDs got hit but how many people use TDs? If you did then you'd know they are still good on a bonused ship and get their intended job done very well.
I don't quite follow how the fact that very few people used them in the first place is being used to support the view that it makes sense to nerf them. And the point about them still being usefull only on bonused ships is exactly the point people are making here. TDs being useful only on bonused ships rather than retaining at least some usefullness even on unbonused ships is clearly increasing specialisation.
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Hell, the torpedo changes are making people try out new PvP raven fits, hooray for a new pvp ship to play with/against.
The torpedo changes are interesting. But in reality don't they also remove variety from the game? Before the changes most race's BS could be fit for long range or short range. The Raven was a bit different since Cruise and Torps were long and medium range. Now the Raven has been brought into line with everything else. I don't have a firm view on whether I like this change or not, so I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing. But I do think tweaking it so that all BS behave as much like each other as possible even though they use completely different weapon systems could hardly be considered adding variety. The view that this change was required because nobody previously ever used the Raven for PvP seems quite disingenuious, there are entire Alliances out there that specialised in using the Raven almost to the exclusion of anything else, and used it quite effectively.
So in conclusion. One or two people are not in agreement with the OP and seem to be suggesting that these nerfs (Myrm and Eos aside) actually increase flexibility and variety of ship setups.
But could anyone please point to a single specific example of an existing ship that now has a greater variety of effective setups as a result of the Trinity changes, or a class of ships that these changes emphasise the differences between instead of making them more similar. Because I think I've done a reasonable job of describing how I think specialization is increasing, but I have yet to see a cohesive refutation.
...
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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.15 14:17:00 -
[28]
And to give all those people who's view is 'don't worry about it, just adapt and get on with it' a slightly different question to consider. Does anyone here think that reduced flexibility, increased specialization and interdependency between ship classes is a good thing, and if so why?
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.12.15 16:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tarminic
No, because when a ship is overpowered it becomes the obvious choice for many different roles, thus reducing ship variation.
Nomad, Vagabond call it what you will?
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Siresa Talesi
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Posted - 2007.12.15 17:17:00 -
[30]
Well, I can't add much to this thread that hasn't already been said, there's been a lot of good points. I'd just like to offer as evidence the ship & module forums, either on this site or any other. Try suggesting a fit for a ship that isn't directly in line with it's usual role, or that doesn't take 100% advantage of the ship's bonuses, and see how quickly the flames start and you are branded as a "noob" and an idiot. When there can be only one setup and one use for a ship, and there is no room for creativity and innovation, then dynamics are gone.
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