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Akira Na'Reece
Caldari
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:06:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Akira Na''Reece on 14/12/2007 17:11:56
Out of boredom I decided to browse the web and find something to moan at, I wound up looking at an advert for WOW gold, and got to looking at eve ISK prices.
I visited one site, (Not sure I am allowed to post the link, so i wont) that advertise....
"Don't worry! Buying EVE Online ISK is 100% legal!"
Well, knowing (or rather suspecting) that they were deliberately misleading people by talking about the law, as opposed to Terms and Conditions, I thought I would pose as a customer with a pre sales query... (actually quite a rude one it turns out...)
SystemSystem
Welcome to ***NAME OF COMPANY*** Live-Chat!
16:46:25 SystemSystem
An agent will be right with you.
16:46:25 SystemSystem
Sarah has joined this session!
16:46:25 SystemSystem
Connected with Sarah
16:46:29 AgentSarah
Welcome to our Live-Chat, How can I help you?
16:47:27 Customer**MY REAL NAME***
Good day, on your front page of the website, you explain how buying isk is prefectly legal (which it is) but it is quite clearly against the terms and conditions of the game, do you feel that this front page statement is misleading?
16:48:10 AgentSarah
No, because it is 100% legal, so we do not do anything illegal.
16:48:20 Customer**MY REAL NAME***
I didnt say it was illegal
16:48:32 Customer**MY REAL NAME***
i said it was against the terms and conditions of the game
16:50:00 AgentSarah
Yes, buying wow gold is also against the terms and agreements of the game, as well as any digital currency. There is a small amount of risk involved. Lots of people use it so there is no need to worry.
16:50:05 AgentSarah
May I help you with anything else?
16:50:40 Customer**MY REAL NAME***
I am looking at making a purchase, I do not mean to be rude, I just want to clearly understand the implications to me if I order from you or any site
16:51:05 AgentSarah
OK.
16:51:11 Customer***
thank you for your time.
16:51:40 AgentSarah
Thank you.
As you can see towards the end of the chat, even the possibility of me ordering was not enough to keep her talking, but you see the way they attempt to mislead you even after I asked the question as directly as i did. I know that a lot of people do this, and i suspect I may get some heat of them for this post, but I was bored and this amused me for 5 seconds.
Cheers for listening, I would appreciate other peoples thoughts, do you tyhink that some new people could get caught up into beleiving that its ok to do this?
Do you think less people would do it if the websites advertised the truth? i.e. ...
"BUYING ISK IS 100% LEGAL, BUT 100% AGAINST THE T&C's SO YOU MAY GET BANNED!"
Hmm I know my sec status looks bad, but I can assure you...
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:10:00 -
[2]
Your real name is Tim?
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Mag
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:10:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Nyphur
Your real name is Tim?
Looks like it. 
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Akira Na'Reece
Caldari
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:13:00 -
[4]
OK, so, what did we learn here...? That you two and probably many others pay more attention to detail than i do, and yes, my name is Tim.
Hmm I know my sec status looks bad, but I can assure you...
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Ask Unbeatable
Gallente
HighTech Marines Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:13:00 -
[5]
hi Tim
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Maltitol
Gallente
Tides of Silence
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nyphur
Your real name is Tim?
rofl, that right there won the thread!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Well boohoo |
Wind Ictiva
Delta Kappa Gamma
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:18:00 -
[7]
Timmy!!! \o/
Originally by: Admiral Love
Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty. |
Akira Na'Reece
Caldari
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:21:00 -
[8]
Can... Open... Worms..... EVERRRRYYYYWWWHHHEEEERRRRREEE!!!
Hmm I know my sec status looks bad, but I can assure you...
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Cabinboy Bob
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:34:00 -
[9]
First Name Tiny ?
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Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:04:00 -
[10]
Hey Timmy!
Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:08:00 -
[11]
Posting in a Timmy thread. Livin' a lie.
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Last Wolf
Templars of Space
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:11:00 -
[12]
How can such a thread be so utterly derailed by just the first post?
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JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:17:00 -
[13]
Hey Tim, err...I mean Akira
I have an idea - since I can't do this because I am at work, find all the sites selling isk and list them here. At the same time see if you can find on their sites where they back up that selling ISK or Gold or whatever is legal. You could also try this question next "If I buy ISK and Eve-Online finds out - will anything happen to me? Can I be banned from playing the game?"
And then see what they say.
________________________
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Hah! Vengeance is sweet! 
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Last Wolf
How can such a thread be so utterly derailed by just the first post?
I don't know Tim, I'm a forum ***** not a miracle worker.
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dust monkey
Minmatar
Dark Tornado
Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Posting in a Timmy thread. Livin' a lie.
TEMMAH!!!!
back on topic.
what we could do is many many peoples go on to this said website and try and sell them some knitted teapot cosies, or other item of choice
this might make them close the free internets chat :)
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Githtakai
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:33:00 -
[16]
I see an opportunity here.
If we all jam up the ISK sellers query and chats with endless general worries about getting banned, we could probably swamp their systems.
Now that would be a worthwhile "threadnaught" against someone other than CCP, now how do we get the goons interested...
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Lillith Rajani
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:36:00 -
[17]
I really hope that ccp uncovers and ban's them all. I also hope that the website did not inject a code to infect your pc ( http://www.security.nl ;nice site in Dutch to stay up to date what criminals can do and believe me they can ... logs won't show anything:)
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:37:00 -
[18]
"Some call me... Tim?"
Sorry man, just too good to pass up.
How much would it cost to roll back to RevII CCP?
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WHeisenberg
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:46:00 -
[19]
If CCP wanted to really stop the isk seller it wouldn't be difficult at all.
Step 1: CCP buys the isk from the isk seller using a fake pilot account
Step 2: CCP bans the account of the person who sends the isk to them
Done. |
Anwylyd Al'Vos
Minmatar
LightSpeed Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:50:00 -
[20]
Timmeh! (and the lords of the underworld) lol
There has got to be a way to sue those sites out of existence (yes I'm from the us) ... I mean, as these guys are nearly untraceable... they are still making rl money off someone else's intellectual property...
ps: buying isk (even with gtc's) is dumb imo
_
. - Justice, Mercy, and Faith
My soul has horizons further away than those of early mornings, deeper darkness than the night |
JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: WHeisenberg
If CCP wanted to really stop the isk seller it wouldn't be difficult at all.
Step 1: CCP buys the isk from the isk seller using a fake pilot account
Step 2: CCP bans the account of the person who sends the isk to them
Done.
Uhm - 3: CCP raises the game price to cover the costs they are going to lose buying the ISK from the ISK Sellers.
________________________
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
|
Anwylyd Al'Vos
Minmatar
LightSpeed Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: WHeisenberg
If CCP wanted to really stop the isk seller it wouldn't be difficult at all.
Step 1: CCP buys the isk from the isk seller using a fake pilot account
Step 2: CCP bans the account of the person who sends the isk to them
Done.
They'd also need to ban or set negative billions isk any account they've had contact with (i'm sure there is trade log somewhere they could trace that accounts isk from)
_
. - Justice, Mercy, and Faith
My soul has horizons further away than those of early mornings, deeper darkness than the night |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:54:00 -
[23]
Isk farmers pay money, say the equivelant of 1000 accounts, thats ú14 000 a month in lost revenue. You ban the people who buy isk, thats perhaps 2000 accounts, which is ú28k a month.
Would you ban these people who pay you money from a business pov?
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Freya Runestone
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:01:00 -
[24]
and are you surprised at any of this?
I'm not.
I know a few people i know have bought ingame-currency, don't know of anyone in EVE who have done that though, its all in other games.
I suppose EVE is not a great game for these RMT sites, since they actually allow it through the GTC sales, which means there *is* a way to do it safely, although i expect the RMT sites offer isk quite a lot cheaper than GTC sales allow.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kirjava
Isk farmers pay money, say the equivelant of 1000 accounts, thats ú14 000 a month in lost revenue. You ban the people who buy isk, thats perhaps 2000 accounts, which is ú28k a month.
Would you ban these people who pay you money from a business pov?
well then the players buying will only buy using the tarde and CCP makes the money just a different way.
Official fanboy of jenny<
pink supporter!
looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi |
vinnymcg
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Githtakai
I see an opportunity here.
If we all jam up the ISK sellers query and chats with endless general worries about getting banned, we could probably swamp their systems.
Now that would be a worthwhile "threadnaught" against someone other than CCP, now how do we get the goons interested...
Actually not a bad idea mate, lets spam them like they spam us, I know a good few people who could set it up to spam the hell out of there email and chat services.
How about
"Visit www.yourmother.com for a cheap and fast ass kicking. stop spamming EVE-ONLINE"
Quickbar tread |
Lucas Avignon
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:18:00 -
[27]
o/ Timmah
/me posting in a my name is Tim thread
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miss eve2006
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: WHeisenberg
If CCP wanted to really stop the isk seller it wouldn't be difficult at all.
Step 1: CCP buys the isk from the isk seller using a fake pilot account
Step 2: CCP bans the account of the person who sends the isk to them
Done.
this make no sense.. so ccp buys the isk for real money?... this is kinda win for the isk sellers...
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MotherMoon
well then the players buying will only buy using the tarde and CCP makes the money just a different way.
A different way, such as?
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Dragos Mrs
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akira Na'Reece
yes, my name is Tim.
there are some, who would call you .. Tim?
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SirTKAR
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 21:03:00 -
[31]
I, for one, do not understand how they can claim that their selling ISK isn't illegal. Given that A) buying and selling ISK is against the EULA, B) the EULA itself is a legal agreement, C) they have violated a legal agreement and therefore are in violation of the law. Is this not the case for some reason?
-
SirTKAR
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici" |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 21:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: SirTKAR
I, for one, do not understand how they can claim that their selling ISK isn't illegal. Given that A) buying and selling ISK is against the EULA, B) the EULA itself is a legal agreement, C) they have violated a legal agreement and therefore are in violation of the law. Is this not the case for some reason?
EULA is not law, only fanboy's beleive CCP's EULA will stand up in court.
Buying and selling ISK is legal - in the eyes of national law, not to CCP.
Ergo, it is legal to buy isk, just against the rules CCP have in the game, you understand?
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Considered
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Posted - 2007.12.14 21:43:00 -
[33]
Ye, technically it's fine to say "Buying EVE isk is legal" because no Country Law makes it an arrestable offence, although I agree that it is very misleading, and we need to drive the isk farmers of eve once and for all.
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SirTKAR
Gallente
T'Karan Merchant Fleet
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Posted - 2007.12.14 21:44:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kirjava
EULA is not law, only fanboy's beleive CCP's EULA will stand up in court.
Buying and selling ISK is legal - in the eyes of national law, not to CCP.
Ergo, it is legal to buy isk, just against the rules CCP have in the game, you understand?
So what is it that makes Microsoft's EULA legal and therefore one can get persecuted for breaking it, and not CCP's? They're both EULA's. I realize that EULA's are not laws unto themselves, but are they not binding legal agreements? Otherwise, what really is the point of having them?
-
SirTKAR
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici" |
Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: JamnOne
Originally by: WHeisenberg
If CCP wanted to really stop the isk seller it wouldn't be difficult at all.
Step 1: CCP buys the isk from the isk seller using a fake pilot account
Step 2: CCP bans the account of the person who sends the isk to them
Done.
Uhm - 3: CCP raises the game price to cover the costs they are going to lose buying the ISK from the ISK Sellers.
Right. because there are no negative consequences to ISK selling. This never costs CCP any subscriptions.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: SirTKAR
I, for one, do not understand how they can claim that their selling ISK isn't illegal. Given that A) buying and selling ISK is against the EULA, B) the EULA itself is a legal agreement, C) they have violated a legal agreement and therefore are in violation of the law. Is this not the case for some reason?
You won't do any jail time or pay any fine for buying ISK
But you will lose your $300 ebayed character without the smallest hope of appeal or recourse.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:45:00 -
[37]
Buying ISK for online games in the US is a crime. And its a doozy how Congress got their paws in this mess, so listen close.
Not so long ago, Mindark, the makers of Entropia Universe, had to change their looting system ingame over from animals dropping straight coins to dropping items worth certain amounts of coin. Because Entropia Universe is a real world currency exchange game, where money ingame CAN be bought and CAN be sold, the US government deemed the game to be a form of online gambling, which is itself illegal, and its taxable income, which they're DEFINITELY interested in.
Applied to EVE, because these ISK sellers create a functional, if not authorized, exchange rate, its possible that anyone who buys ISK is, in fact, violating US law because this real money exchange rate makes every ISK you earn a form of taxable income that the government wants its share of, along with the fact that EVE becomes a game of chance, which makes it a form of gambling the US government doesn't like.
For those who buy ISK, or any game currency, you're playing a slightly different game than the rest of us, and your gonads are on the line if you get a District Attorney with a cross to bear with gambling.
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Akira Na'Reece
Caldari
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.12.15 19:02:00 -
[38]
YAY!! Despite the initial screw up on the original post, I actuall got a decent conversation going!!
I see the big issue with the lost revenue by banning all the farmers, I guess they should have started checking for and banning before they got to be such a huge revenue generator for CCP, however hindsight IS a beautifull thing.
Do people think that as long as this is not the MAIN way MOST players get ISK in game, that it is such a big deal? and do people think that CCP are really that bothered, assuming it doesnt spiral out of control and crash markets and such?
Hmm I know my sec status looks bad, but I can assure you...
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voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
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Posted - 2007.12.15 19:26:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akira Na'Reece
I see the big issue with the lost revenue by banning all the farmers, I guess they should have started checking for and banning before they got to be such a huge revenue generator for CCP, however hindsight IS a beautifull thing.
False.
Banned farmers come right back with new accounts, only less effective then before.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.15 19:29:00 -
[40]
Originally by: voogru
Originally by: Akira Na'Reece
I see the big issue with the lost revenue by banning all the farmers, I guess they should have started checking for and banning before they got to be such a huge revenue generator for CCP, however hindsight IS a beautifull thing.
False.
Banned farmers come right back with new accounts, only less effective then before.
In fact banning farmers should increase revenue, since they have to pay subscription while they train up Caldari battleship 3 and Cruise 4.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Final Requiem
Gallente
White Shadow Imperium
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2007.12.15 20:33:00 -
[41]
hi tim xP
and yea, it's funny isnt it? the things they'll do to make a quick buck even if it means convincing people that what they're doing is ok, even though it's not. honestly, if you're so hurting for money that you're willing to pay rl money for ig currency, eve has made a nice way to do it, gtc trading ftw. while you pay a bit more for gtc exchange (15 dollar gtc sells for what, 20m give or take) but if i was so hurting for money, i'd honestly rather do it THRU the company that owns the game, rather then get it from some asian farmer. and no i'm not anti-asian, but every farmer i've caught out in space they shouldnt be in ratting in the same raven torp setup, all, and i do mean all, speak chinese...
anyways, moral to the story is if you're so desperate for isk , buy a gtc, sell it on the forum, do the secure trade THRU ccp, get your money, and have a nice day :P
__________
[-WSI-]
"In the name of God, impure souls of the living deal shall be banished into eternal damnation. AMEN." |
Lone Gunman
|
Posted - 2007.12.15 21:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Janu Hull
Buying ISK for online games in the US is a crime. And its a doozy how Congress got their paws in this mess, so listen close.
Not so long ago, Mindark, the makers of Entropia Universe, had to change their looting system ingame over from animals dropping straight coins to dropping items worth certain amounts of coin. Because Entropia Universe is a real world currency exchange game, where money ingame CAN be bought and CAN be sold, the US government deemed the game to be a form of online gambling, which is itself illegal, and its taxable income, which they're DEFINITELY interested in.
Applied to EVE, because these ISK sellers create a functional, if not authorized, exchange rate, its possible that anyone who buys ISK is, in fact, violating US law because this real money exchange rate makes every ISK you earn a form of taxable income that the government wants its share of, along with the fact that EVE becomes a game of chance, which makes it a form of gambling the US government doesn't like.
For those who buy ISK, or any game currency, you're playing a slightly different game than the rest of us, and your gonads are on the line if you get a District Attorney with a cross to bear with gambling.
So what your saying is that since Entropia credits remain the property of account holder they could be taxed on the profits. However Eve is different in that all EVE-ONLINE ingame items remain the property of CCP.
because then you have the situation that If a player bought ISK and purchased ingame items that were sold ingame for a profit and then those items were looted by pirates. That player would be entitled to a tax deduction and the IRS would go after the pirates. That would be something to see.
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Gutsani
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.12.15 21:37:00 -
[43]
t t timmeh!!!!
Kreul Intentions ==****got |
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