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New Subscription Option - Skill Speed Training Multiplier

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Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:40:00 - [1] Edited by: Ujaki on 14/12/2007 18:46:18 Edited by: Ujaki on 14/12/2007 18:41:29 First of all I think EVE is a great game, thank you for all your hard work. However, as a newcomer to EVE my biggest frustration is the slow progress 'forced' upon me by way of slow skill training, as an 'intelligent' gamer this slow progress kills me and my desire to keep playing. EVE is a great game but I believe this extremely slow acquisition of skills is why a lot of new players quit, regardless of the reasons why people quit I think I have a good idea for CCP to increase revenue, cutsomer satisfaction and retention of players. Here's my very simple and (in my opinion) a reasonably priced proposal: "Create a new subscription model that includes skill speed training multiplier options, such as." Option 1: $14.95 / month x1 skill speed training multiplier Option 2: $24.95 / month x2 skill speed training multiplier Option 3: $34.95 / month x3 skill speed training multiplier Key Benefits : 1. Increased player retention and overall game expereience due to less frustration with speed of skill progress. 2. Increased revenue for CCP - this is good for CCP and good for the players whether they realize it or not. 3. New model doesn't penalize older players, the skill speed multipler subscription options should be open to everyone. 4. More viable PVP activity. I think this model is respectful of the nature of EVE while at the same time provides a realistic option that translates well into the game mechanics, from a development standpoint I also believe it would be very easy to incorporate. Many people may well be happy with their skill progress, that's fantastic they can continue to play at their speed at a lower subscription rate, but please please please consider hardcore gamers that demand faster progress, we all know that brains function at different speeds so why not have a revenue / skill speed acquisition model that satisfies all of these needs? Ok, unleash your wrath upon me :) I'm interested in positive and negative feedback. Cheers. Ujaki
Cipher Venok Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Cipher Venok on 14/12/2007 19:04:21 Although this is an interesting topic, it isn't about money at all, but about balance within the game. If one instantly changes the balance so drastically as in giving new people an advantage over those who've spent a long time here, you would probably see more veterans of the game leave, or at the very least, very POed. I am a new player (only days old), so I certainly don't have a bias here when I disagree with this idea. In fact, I also find it rather slow, but what I love about EVE is that your character keeps training even while you're logged out of the game. What's important here is that there are "diminishing returns" for skill gain, and non-basic skills take much longer to train than basic skills. Each level in a skill probably takes 5 times longer to train than the previous level took. This works to the advantage of new players. My Blog \| GameRig CPUz \| WorkPC CPUz
Little Tigerlilly	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:11:00 - [3] Originally by: Cipher Venok If one instantly changes the balance so drastically as in giving new people and advantage over those who've spent a long time here, you would probably see more veterans of the game leave, or at the very least, very POed. This would not change the balance of the game and new players are not likely EVER going to have an advantage over older players. It takes weeks of training and millions of isk to even get to the point where you can train as fast as long time players. And that doesn't have anything to do with skills that make you stronger against enemies in the game. Old players likely already train at least 2x faster than you on everything. I have a different approach to making new players rank up a bit faster. I think early missions for new players should offer completed skill books on many of the core skills players need to advance. Engineering, Electronics, Energy Management, Spaceship command, etc. These skills were trained and maxed years ago by most players and offering them to new players as free gifts for following the tutorials and early missions seems like a great way to get new players moving forward in the world of eve.
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:18:00 - [4] At the end of the day given explosive growth in online subscription games the inevitable will happen, another developer will come in and capitalize on this massive weakness, if EVE doesn't change it will die when a competitor creates a faster style gameplay with great graphics and depth - a similar outcome is likely with World of Warcraft when Warhammer launches.
Ammon Skycloud Caldari Matari Research Foundation Empire Research	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:30:00 - [5] No, why should someone who has more cash than me be allowed to "buy" skills? if you play eve "intelligently" you can be very competitive in a very short amount of time, so what if you can't start solo killing 4 year old, Mom flying pilots a week after starting the game, that's the whole point.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:35:00 - [6] So the guy with more money ends up better at the game than me because I can't afford more than a couple of quid per week. AWFUL IDEA!!! Having people get more skill points by spending more money is completely against the feel of the game. Everyone is supposed to be EQUAL! Everyone, regardless of how much time or money you can devote to the game "levels" at the same rate. If you want power-leveling by throwing the money that you clearly have too much of at the creators maybe you should find a different game. GO BACK TO WORLD OF WARCRAFT! RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:38:00 - [7] The extra cash flow into the game would be used to make your overall experience better, that's why. I also think the faster progression would 'benefit' the more experienced players, take PVP for example it would increase the amount of PVP activity quite simply because newer players have better skills. Surely you 4 year old PVP veterans would welcome more compeition?
Daphne Eveningstar	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:44:00 - [8] This is not a bad idea really. A 3x modifier is probably too much, but a 2x modifier--that's really not much different than having a 2nd account. Might actually encourage folks to keep building their primary.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:47:00 - [9] Bllocks would we! We don't want someone doing in one year what's taken me 3 years to do. It's a simple as that. Because that guy can spend twice as much cash on the game as me he can get better skills than me to the point where he can have blown right past me. In 2 years he'll have more skills than me if I was playing for 4 years. HOW IS THIS FAIR! Yes it brings in more money for CCP which is great. However it completely ruins the game. I guarantee that a good number of veteren players would leave the game the very day that idea is brought into effect, and I would be among them. I am absolutely fed up of the little rich kid getting better sht in computer games because he has enough of mummy and daddies money that he can buy every rare item off eBay or get the highest subscription packet. Having too much money that you can't think what to do with it shouldn't make you better it EVE, it does however make you oh so very thick. Can't you think of something else to spend your money on.... like a blowjob from a fat, hairy Samoan woman with false teeth and a bad case of 24 hour leprosy. There, go spend your money on that. Stop trying to pollute EVE with your money, you irritating little rich kid. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Ma'kal Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:49:00 - [10] CCP would never do such a thing. Part of the reason that CCP keeps so many people is that they have to wait for the next cool thing. If you could thriple your training time you would run out of skills in two years (give or take a bit). Then there would be nothing left to work on and have a higher posiblility of quiting the game. So Eve would rather keep you playing for as long as posible so I do not see this is a things CCP would do.
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:56:00 - [11] Quite frankly a few veterans leaving the game would probably be a good thing, far too often game developers are afraid of making significant changes because of this 'minority' of veterans, new blood is a good thing, the new generation of players may have different needs than the 'old timers'. Change is a good thing, but those that perceive they have in-game power fear it most :) If you actually think it through speeding up new player progress dramatically will increase the quality of gameplay. I also agree that x3 multiplier might be too high, perhaps x1, x1.5 and x2 would be better.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:03:00 - [12] No it won't, and as for veterans leaving being a good thing. FCK YOU! We don't want our game changing, pss off. I hope you get hunted and pod killed by every person who's been on this game longer than a year. You clearly have no respect for anyone else who enjoys the game as it is, you just want to be top dog because you have money. News flash sunshine, having money won't make you uber at EVE, you have to work for it. Now, don't you have some level-grinding to be doing on another unnameable MMO. Or maybe you need to buy that +4 weapon off eBay. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:09:00 - [13] Rjaiajik you should get some psychotherapy for all that pent up anger, one way to become calmer is through physical excercise you could try that too, I highly recommend it. Anger and swearing and threatening me with pod kills will get you nowhere, you're just making yourself look like a three year old with a temper tantrum, why don't you actually try contributing something positive instead?
Sha'ara Sha'amashira	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:22:00 - [14] Edited by: Sha''ara Sha''amashira on 14/12/2007 20:22:35 personally i think that multipliers added to skill training time is a very very bad idea. Since essentially it will take an average of 1 1/2 months and then 160 mil isk to get all the advanced learning skills as well as a full set of +4 implants to come even close to reducing the skill training timer on something by half and even then you can never really get teh number down to base so here's another potential idea for teh same concept that might work...presenting the multi skill account. Option 1: $14.95 / month normal no change to the characters training whatsoever Option 2: $19.95 / month character gains the ability to train +1 skill, however, he must train this additional skill at 25% the normal rate Option 3: $24.95 / month character is able to train 2 additional skills, however, only at a rate of 25% their original rate Overall trainign time modifiers Option 1 no change Option 2 25% extra Option 3 50% extra Result, minor modifier in skill training time and the player is able to feel like they are getting more done because they can train more skills at once while not gaining much of an edge over older players. The other idea i had was apply a skill cap to it much like there is a skill cap to the trial accounts so for instance you can't make battleships or industrials your secondary or teriary skill yet you can't use these to max out some of the skills that you just can't ever find time to train up to max on your secondary or tertiary skills and it won't really break the balance as a new character could mainly only use it to flush out his tech 1 ship skills and tech 2 module skills (minus wepons since specializations should be on the not allowed list as well.) This system would also stop someone from doing the obvious of paying for it for 1 month so they can get something like battleships lvl 5 in 10 days and such since it would basically not change you're primary skills and most useful skills training times while simultaneously letting players catch up to the older players a bit and letting older players finish out training a bunch of lesser skills that they never seemed to get round to. Also i changed the prices so that its not too elitest with you paying more than double your account for the highest level so as to make the less finicially well off eve players included in this.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:24:00 - [15] I am contributing, read my replies in other topics. I'm just fed up of the constant "CCP, please give me a quick and easy way to become UBER 1337 Hax00rz in EVE if I give you lots of cash" topics. They sully the game and all its ment since the beginning. EVE is supposed to be a game where the amount of money you spend on it and the amount of time you've spent on it doesn't dictate you importance. You characters are all capable of the same. You get your rewards for spending more time on the game because you have the opportunity to earn more ISK but you never gain EXP which is one of the things that makes EVE popular. As for cash. No-one should be rewarded in game just because they have more cash in real life. That means the spoiled little rich brat gets all the best things in game because his parents happen to own Toshiba or something. It's not fair and it again ruins the whole point of the game. Ideas like this get suggested all the time and as soon as they come into effect the best people in game won't be the longest running players who have worked for positions of power in alliances and been active in the game. But the guys who can afford to throw more money at CCP, and that's just wrong. Cut short, this idea sucks and I'll be extremely blunt about it. Don't try taking the "reserved intellectual" approach, you've already lost because you idea sucks monkey balls. It's awful and will never work. Now either play the game like everyone else, from the beginning, working up to the nice shiny things, or don't play at all. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:27:00 - [16] Sha'ara, your idea is just as bad... You're still rewarding people with more skill points for having more money in real life. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS! HAVING MORE MONEY IN REAL LIFE DOES NOT LICENSE YOU TO GET BETTER PRIVILEGES IN EVE. YOU'RE NOT THE CENTER OF THIS UNIVERSE! RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Jalaal	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:28:00 - [17] I work hard for every once of money I get, so I could afford the said proposal. Also, I too am new to EVE. However your proposal being a good idea is wrong. EVE already has ways to train you skills faster. Look under "Learning" you freak'n noob. You are too quick too spend money and it will either make you broke or too reliant on your parents. Come to think of you sound like the type of person who would buy ISK because you don't want to waste your precious time mining, trading ,or doing missions. The game was designed to reward long term players and to make cannon fodder out of those who think that they can buy their way into power. Get off your high horse and realize you live in the real world where people in EVE cater to the most powerful corporations not you. If you want to be power leveled go play World of Warcraft and quit polluting our severs.
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:39:00 - [18] At the end of the day people 'supply' ISK and other items on eBay because there is a 'demand' - CCP should pay attention to that demand, because that demand represents the voice of the customer. I don't advocate third parties having substantial control of game economics but I do believe CCP should respond to that 'demand' and there clearly IS a demand or the suppliers wouldn't exist. There is nothing wrong with some people having more money than other people to invest in their online progress, it's called life - some people have faster cars than me, should we force the government to make everyone equal and not allow them fast cars or more money than me? Your argument is flawed - look up 'supply and demand' on Google. Demand always wins, ultimately games will allow progress with real cash because the demand is so high, you can only fight it for so long.
Justine DeSade	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:40:00 - [19] Bad idea. The amount of extra money CCP makes from higher subscription rates will almost instantly be offset by the number of players who leave because they're mad at the change and feel they have to buy a better character to compete rather than being good at the actual game. Then as core players and overall player base declines, they'll start loosing money as people leave because their friends left, or there aren't as many people in their corp to play with, it's not as easy to find items on the market, etc. Just look at what happened to Star Wars Galaxies, and they didn't even change things up because of greed. They went from a million active subscriptions to fewer than EvE Online has now, and that game's only been out a year longer than EvE has.
Ellaine TashMurkon CBC Interstellar The Unseen Company	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:43:00 - [20] You currently can train quickly or become more powerful with more money. Simply, buy TC, sell for ISK, buy a trained character. Or buy more accounts. But it all stays within ingame logic. Every pilot trains with speed dependent on attributes and implants. Ingame, it doesnt matter if they are traded from one player to another, they remain the same character, and that character is consistent. No deus ex machina, aha, I learn faster cause gods blessed me! And thats good.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:44:00 - [21] Ujaki, you're a moron. FCK OFF! As for anyone else who thinks money should be the answer to everything, you can also all fck off. I've had it with you all. You're idiots who want everything running your way. Well it isn't going to happen. Take your money and go and spend it on something useful. Like a shred of dignity. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Justine DeSade	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:45:00 - [22] Originally by: Ujaki There is nothing wrong with some people having more money than other people to invest in their online progress, it's called life - some people have faster cars than me, should we force the government to make everyone equal and not allow them fast cars or more money than me? Your argument is flawed - look up 'supply and demand' on Google. Demand always wins, ultimately games will allow progress with real cash because the demand is so high, you can only fight it for so long. Np. your argument is flawed. Governments allow you to have that fast car, but you can only drive it so fast because there are speed limits. Those speed limits are there for your safety and the safety of others, just like restrictions on buying game isk or character training for real cash are there to prevent damaging the fun experience of the game. Of course there are always going to be people willing to pay ten times as much for a car because it goes faster, has better luxuries, etc, but should they be allowed to infringe on the driving experience of other people, just because they have more money? Never.
Plekto Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:56:00 - [23] Edited by: Plekto on 14/12/2007 20:58:12 The best way to do this is to have a scaled system and alter the skills a bit: 1 - everyone has their learning skills maxxed out and the category removed. This levels the playing field for new players who often don't know how critical learning skills are.(it would help some old players too I bet) 2 - Skills are given a multiplier: Levels 1-3 4x Levels 4-5 2x This would for instance, make no difference for older players. Battlecruiser, Battleship, and almost all of the major skills would remain at their current ungodly slow speeds. But smaller ships like Frigates, Cruisers, and so on would be quickly accessible to most new pilots as well as skills like engineering, refining, rigging, and so on would be quicker to pick up. This would triple new players' initial speed but after 5-6 months, which is the average length of time people play EVE, it would begin to slow down to the same speed as us older players. It would still take 90-95% as long, for instance, to fly a Black Ops, for instance. CCP would retain players for longer and make more money.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:00:00 - [24] That's still rewarding new players with more skill point than the existing players. It's unfair and you know it. Why should they get an easy ride? Are they not good enough gamers? Do they need CCP to hold their hand and help them challenge the existing players? HELL NO! Everyone can be something in EVE. It takes time and effort and I personally don't see any reason why that should change. If it ever did, I expect to be given a stock-pile of skill points that I spent learning the skills at the old rate so I can put them into something else.... you know, like Dreads. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Cipher Venok Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:17:00 - [25] Edited by: Cipher Venok on 14/12/2007 21:19:30 Originally by: Rjaiajik Kajvoril I'm just fed up of the constant "CCP, please give me a quick and easy way to become UBER 1337 Hax00rz in EVE if I give you lots of cash" topics. They sully the game and all its ment since the beginning. Although I won't condone Rjaiajik's flame bait ... I do agree with his position and reasoning. EVE isn't like all of the other MMORPGs out there. It wasn't intended to be like them, and it certainly will not ever become them either. There are a couple of facts that make it so different: Players don't need to run around hacking things apart to gain experience. Experience is gained via skill training, and that is a well protected foundation of advancement within EVE. If you start to mess with that, you nerf some players and over-grind others. Because of this, the level of skill training (even though veterans have trained in Learning itself) shouldn't be toyed with at all. Buying ISK (which is against policy) isn't really helping you at all. What's more important is to have reliable means of earning ISK consistently. This is one reason why there's no real uproar in the community about farming ISK to sell for real money. Buying a large chunk one time doesn't help make you more powerful inside of EVE. Everything you buy requires the skills to use it, and everything you use requires a good corporation to use it effectively. I might be brand new to the game, but from reading the wisdom of other veterans and researching things myself, I do realize why this is important: it makes EVE different from every canned MMORPG out there, WoW included. So I just have one thing to say to you directly, Ujaki... Why don't you just go play WoW and pay someone in China to level all your characters to 70 so you won't have to go through any of the "fun" part of the game everyone else went through? My Blog \| GameRig CPUz \| WorkPC CPUz
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:26:00 - [26] I came up with another idea that warrants a separate thread which might be more viable : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=660460 Let me know what you think in that thread. Cheers. Ujaki
Ujaki	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:29:00 - [27] To all those people wanting me to leave and play WoW - it isn't going to happen, you can't get rid of me that easy so come up with a new story.
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:34:00 - [28] Don't worry, I enjoy flaming newbie morons on the forums... if you hadn't guessed it's one of my hobbies. Helps relieve me of any pent up anger so I don't take it out on people who don't deserve it. We don't need to drive you away from EVE. You'll do that to yourself. You'll play, maybe even become an avid player and get addicted to the game.... for about 2-3 months. Then you'll realise you've plateaued. Every new step takes to 2 weeks or more of skill training and a lot of ISK. You will be lucky to find a corp other than GoonSwarm to take you on, (and even then you'll just be another newbie tackler goon). You'll get bored, you'll decide you're better off not spending your money on EVE and leave. I've seen it happen plenty of times... hell I've even done it, I've been playing for 8-9 months now on this account, and I have an old account that I never bothered to reactivate from 2 1/2 years back, I spent 6 weeks in the middle of my current account without logging on once, why? I didn't feel like it, EVE is good like that. You can come back to it and you're not left behind in the dust. If you need a break from it, you can just take a break. So. In the end, I don't see EVE being in any danger from you. You're just another newbie blip from WoW that will be gone in a few weeks. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:44:00 - [29] This idea leads to an easily foreseeable conclusion - Those able to afford the cost have more skill points. Those who cannot do not have as many skill points. As you are apparently new to the game allow me to share a fact with you. The difference between a 20 million skill point character and a 70 million skill point character is marginal at best. The higher skill point character will have some skills at 5 that the other character still have at 4, and will probably have cross-trained into other races. Honestly, and I'm not intending to be rude here, this is an absolutely horrible idea. My crusade for faster missiles.
Myshella Drake Caldari Eishie	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Ujaki Quite frankly a few veterans leaving the game would probably be a good thing, far too often game developers are afraid of making significant changes because of this 'minority' of veterans, new blood is a good thing, the new generation of players may have different needs than the 'old timers'. Actually these 'veterans' would have a better understanding of the games feeling and mechanics and have a lot better understanding of what is a horrible idea than what you do.. obviously...Sure theres a new generation of players,(a new generation of WoW idiots), and your point is?, why should eve bend over backwards and change its training system just for this 'new generation', cant they just train like the veterans did when they first started? or is the new generation to whiney and impatient for that?. EVE is a totally different gameplay experience to any other MMO and the long training time is part of that.If you dont like that go to another game that requires less patience. Originally by: Ujaki Change is a good thing, but those that perceive they have in-game power fear it most :) I have no power in game...ill happily admit i get the shakes in pvp and would easy be pwnd because of my low skill level and i think this 'change' is the most horrible idea ive heard all day. And veterans dont 'fear' it, they see it as a stupid suggestion. Your the one who has fear of actually put a little time and effort into training your character only to see your ship being blown up in an instant by someone older than you, thats what this is about ------------------

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