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neutero	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:23:00 - [1] no its not a joke. From what I hear the base price of the Golem is not going to drop much further than 750-800 million. For that you currently get a BS with the same DPS as a Raven but a much better tank but if I wanted a bigger wet rag, I wouldn't spend half the price of dreadnaught on it. 3 x Caldari Navy BCU's, 4 x CN Cruise Missile Launchers and CN cruise missiles delivers 560 dps (760 with faction siege). Sure it reps @ 365 hp/sec but if it can't deliver significant damage it's really just prolonging its own death. Combined with the ECM weakness, this ship has some serious flaws. To give it damage capability appropriate to its skill requirement and cost, simply apply the same 25% ROF bonus as the Raven receives.
Centurion Redux Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:25:00 - [2] Edited by: Centurion Redux on 18/12/2007 23:25:09 Run 3 seige 1 cruise and a tank from hell it tanks over 900 dps and does over 900 dps without drones. It needs NO boost. Or you planning to use it for missionwhoringpalooza
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd. THORN Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:26:00 - [3] Originally by: neutero no its not a joke. From what I hear the base price of the Golem is not going to drop much further than 750-800 million. For that you currently get a BS with the same DPS as a Raven but a much better tank but if I wanted a bigger wet rag, I wouldn't spend half the price of dreadnaught on it. 3 x Caldari Navy BCU's, 4 x CN Cruise Missile Launchers and CN cruise missiles delivers 560 dps (760 with faction siege). Sure it reps @ 365 hp/sec but if it can't deliver significant damage it's really just prolonging its own death. Combined with the ECM weakness, this ship has some serious flaws. To give it damage capability appropriate to its skill requirement and cost, simply apply the same 25% ROF bonus as the Raven receives. I'm a Caldari pilot who loves Caldari ships, and I say shaddap. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
VB Sarge The Bastards	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:28:00 - [4] I really don't see this ship as viable for pvp, as a frig can jam this thing. It has PVE written all over it. shrug Sure it could be nice for pvp, but a CNR is cheaper and can deal the same/more damage. Uses less ammo? How is that a worry in PvP? www.the-bastards.com
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:38:00 - [5] Originally by: neutero To give it damage capability appropriate to its skill requirement and cost, simply apply the same 25% ROF bonus as the Raven receives. I haven't thoroughly researched the issue, but I'm reasonably sure that it'd be a bad idea to give it an extra 25% ROF. ;-) -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:38:00 - [6] Originally by: VB Sarge I really don't see this ship as viable for pvp, as a frig can jam this thing. It has PVE written all over it. I'd like to use it for PVP but in their effort to avoid making it a solo pwnmobile, CCP have taken too much away from it in the form of damage and EW. EW is a fair trade off but the reduced damage rules it out of committing it to any serious engagement other than mission running. Come to think of it, the large cargo bay is probably for all the cap boosters you'll need for Lvl 5 missions.
Centurion Redux Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:54:00 - [7] Originally by: neutero Originally by: VB Sarge I really don't see this ship as viable for pvp, as a frig can jam this thing. It has PVE written all over it. I'd like to use it for PVP but in their effort to avoid making it a solo pwnmobile, CCP have taken too much away from it in the form of damage and EW. EW is a fair trade off but the reduced damage rules it out of committing it to any serious engagement other than mission running. Come to think of it, the large cargo bay is probably for all the cap boosters you'll need for Lvl 5 missions. It does alot more damage then a raven so i dont know where your getting reduced damage from....
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.19 00:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Centurion Redux It does alot more damage then a raven so i dont know where your getting reduced damage from.... I said the damage output was reduced by removing the ROF bonus the Raven receives, not that it does less damage than a Raven.
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: neutero To give it damage capability appropriate to its skill requirement and cost, simply apply the same 25% ROF bonus as the Raven receives. I haven't thoroughly researched the issue, but I'm reasonably sure that it'd be a bad idea to give it an extra 25% ROF. ;-) -Liang Ah come on! Whats wrong with state issue raven dps on a ship with a painter bonus, explosion velocity bonus, and a shield boost bonus! Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: neutero To give it damage capability appropriate to its skill requirement and cost, simply apply the same 25% ROF bonus as the Raven receives. I haven't thoroughly researched the issue, but I'm reasonably sure that it'd be a bad idea to give it an extra 25% ROF. ;-) -Liang Ah come on! Whats wrong with state issue raven dps on a ship with a painter bonus, explosion velocity bonus, and a shield boost bonus! Inded. What could be wrong with that? -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:45:00 - [11] Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 01:46:06 Agree boost the State Issue. Give a real aim for Misson Runners to spend 80 Billions. Afterall Im not familar with Missle Ships to realy say Golem or CNR. The T2 BS could need a little boost, making them better for her Mission Task(in DPS not in Tank) than Faction or T1 Ships. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Centurion Redux It does alot more damage then a raven so i dont know where your getting reduced damage from.... It does the same damage as a Raven, they both have 8 effective launchers.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:31:00 - [13] I believe the mauraders are a bit underwhelming, but it's still too soon to say by how much. Word is mauraduer sales are pretty bad, so the playerbase in general may be going 'meh'. I think the golem would be a great step in between the raven and the cnr, because of the extra tankage, but unfortunately, by the time you can fly or afford a golem, you'd almost certainly be in a well fitted CNR.
iudex Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:02:00 - [14] I agree, the damage output should be equal to a CNR at least. The extra skill requirement (such as BS5) and even skills that apply only to this ships (Mauraders, x10 skill) should result in a ship that is superior than the cnr, maybe with the same damge and the extra things it already has. Or at least change that explosion velocity bonus, which is completely useless in missions into a explosion radius bonus (the bonus where you do more damage on smaller targets). The improvement can be sticked to cruise missiles only, if you want this ship to keep it's pve role and not make an overpowered pvp tool. I hope the Golem will get some love in the Boost-Patch (TM?).
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.20 02:23:00 - [15] Edited by: neutero on 20/12/2007 02:23:41 The CNR has better tank (approx 40-50% more shield) and more DPS. The Golem is either too expensive or should be boosted to do at least the same damage as a CNR to justify its price. An alternative idea to reward those who train marauders to lvl 5 would be to replace the 100% damage bonus with a 25% DMG bonus per marauder level, level 5 giving a 125% damage bonus. Raven: 6 launchers / 0.75 ROF bonus = 8 effective launchers CNR: 7 launchers / 0.75 ROF bonus = 8.75 effective Golem @ Marauders 4: 4 launchers * 100% damage bonus = 7.6 effective launchers Golem @ Marauders 5: 4 launchers * 125% damage bonus = 9 effective launchers State Issue: 8 launchers / 0.75 ROF bonus = 10.66 effective launchers Not an unreasonable request given the CNR does 10% more dmg than a Raven with no additional skills required. The Golem would then have only a 3% damage advantage over a CNR, a 20% dmg disadvantage to the State Issue, would have an inferior tank and take over a month to train for.
William Ortega	Posted - 2007.12.20 04:40:00 - [16] maybe we should wait at least a month or two of people actually "flying" the ship (EFT doesn't count) before we spam the nerf / boost threads? In particular I'd like to see how the offlined modules in hi's + that nano paste and overheating works out before making too many decisions. -Willy
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.20 05:38:00 - [17] Edited by: neutero on 20/12/2007 05:41:59 Originally by: William Ortega maybe we should wait at least a month or two of people actually "flying" the ship (EFT doesn't count) before we spam the nerf / boost threads? In particular I'd like to see how the offlined modules in hi's + that nano paste and overheating works out before making too many decisions. -Willy A sensible post, however on the Heat issue, over heating will only bring you up to 9.2 effective launchers (4 x DMG bonus x 1.15). Edit: BTW I have both on TQ and have reverted to the CNR (hence the winge). Boost the Golem
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.20 05:41:00 - [18] Golems for missionrunning I fly a Golem for PvE and enjoy it very much. I wouldn't want to use a CNR (been there done that). This Marauder is very good at what it does, but PvP isn't one of them. - NoNamium
Raivi Explosion Matrix Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.20 06:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Raivi on 20/12/2007 06:10:33 Originally by: neutero A sensible post, however on the Heat issue, over heating will only bring you up to 9.2 effective launchers (4 x DMG bonus x 1.15). Edit: BTW I have both on TQ and have reverted to the CNR (hence the winge). Math correction: Overheated Golem = 4*2/0.85 = 9.41 effective launchers CNR with Caldari BS lvl5 = 7/0.75 = 9.33 effective launchers --------------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.20 06:44:00 - [20] There is a trade off on that. The CNR's 30% extra shield means you have more time to avoid using the booster. You also have another rig slot for a CCC so the difference between them is not so great. Besides, the main issue here is damage which with the 125%, skill based damage boost, is still less than CNR by a significant margin.
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:03:00 - [21] I want to kill every one of you who says "state issue dps" The GOLEM DOESN'T HAVE ROF BONUS! The GOLEM DOESN'T HAVE ROF BONUS! Seriously, how can you guys post about something you don't know about, the Golem has the SAME dps as the Raven. THE SAME DPS AS THE NORMAL RAVEN. Open up EFT and check it. Go. DO IT. DO IT. That's because the Raven has 6 launchers and a 25% RoF, the Golem has 4 and a 100% damage bonus. Both have effectively 8 launchers, while the CNR beats them. Jesus christ and this is why CCP thinks the Golem is ok, with a joke of a playerbase who has no clue about they're talking about thinking it has the dps of a State Raven. Christ.
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Calimor I want to kill every one of you who says "state issue dps" The GOLEM DOESN'T HAVE ROF BONUS! The GOLEM DOESN'T HAVE ROF BONUS! Seriously, how can you guys post about something you don't know about, the Golem has the SAME dps as the Raven. THE SAME DPS AS THE NORMAL RAVEN. Open up EFT and check it. Go. DO IT. DO IT. That's because the Raven has 6 launchers and a 25% RoF, the Golem has 4 and a 100% damage bonus. Both have effectively 8 launchers, while the CNR beats them. Jesus christ and this is why CCP thinks the Golem is ok, with a joke of a playerbase who has no clue about they're talking about thinking it has the dps of a State Raven. Christ. A little angry, but very true ;) Golem is still the npc-mission ship of my choice. I like gathering loot and salvaging during the mission when killing the npcs. Boosts my isk/hour rate. the CNR doesn't do this nearly as well, it just completes the mission at a maximum of 16% faster than a Golem, but not when traveling great distances on impulse. that 16% is more than covered by salvage alone (@100k for some and even 500k for the best salvage components, you don't need a lot to surpass the mission reward, bonus and bounty for ships) - NoNamium
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:25:00 - [23] Isk price is NEVER a reason to change ships or modules!!! - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
NoNamium	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Pinky Denmark Isk price is NEVER a reason to change ships or modules!!! It's the only reason. og hejsa! - NoNamium
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:32:00 - [25] Originally by: neutero no its not a joke. From what I hearthe base price of the Golem is not going to drop much further than 750-800 million. For that you currently get a BS with the same DPS as a Raven but a much better tank but if I wanted a bigger wet rag, I wouldn't spend half the price of dreadnaught on it. 3 x Caldari Navy BCU's, 4 x CN Cruise Missile Launchers and CN cruise missiles delivers 560 dps (760 with faction siege). Sure it reps @ 365 hp/sec but if it can't deliver significant damage it's really just prolonging its own death. Combined with the ECM weakness, this ship has some serious flaws. To give it damage capability appropriate to its skill requirement and cost, simply apply the same 25% ROF bonus as the Raven receives. Lol, your such a noob. A golem out performs a raven at a fraction of the cost - consider the fitting costs at running a similar tank on a Raven or CNR, you'd spend way more than you will buying a golem which can run a T2 tank and make lvl 4 missions ez mode. Not to mention the whole extra 4 high slots you get for things like salvagers/tractors. Level 4 missions are easier & faster to run in a Golem.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:42:00 - [26] But, but, what about EFT?
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:42:00 - [27] Originally by: NoNamium Originally by: Pinky Denmark Isk price is NEVER a reason to change ships or modules!!! It's the only reason. og hejsa! - NoNamium apparantly color is a valid reason too davs - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Lol, your such a noob. A golem out performs a raven at a fraction of the cost - consider the fitting costs at running a similar tank on a Raven or CNR, you'd spend way more than you will buying a golem which can run a T2 tank and make lvl 4 missions ez mode. Not to mention the whole extra 4 high slots you get for things like salvagers/tractors. Level 4 missions are easier & faster to run in a Golem. Calling someone a noob usually exposes you as one. Your post confirms that. Boost the Golem
swire	Posted - 2007.12.20 11:06:00 - [29] Originally by: NoNamium A little angry, but very true ;) Golem is still the npc-mission ship of my choice. I like gathering loot and salvaging during the mission when killing the npcs. Boosts my isk/hour rate. the CNR doesn't do this nearly as well, it just completes the mission at a maximum of 16% faster than a Golem, but not when traveling great distances on impulse. that 16% is more than covered by salvage alone (@100k for some and even 500k for the best salvage components, you don't need a lot to surpass the mission reward, bonus and bounty for ships) - NoNamium Yeah, this was my thought. Fitting the golem with tractor and salvager (one of each?). The lower DPS means mish would go slower, but be worth more per hour. This also means that getting a good mish from an agent is effectively worth more, so it less time turning down crap ones. And because you get 2x damage, cruise missiles are half the cost, so using faction ammo actually makes sense on a mish. The flip side is 2x damage x4 launchers will do less damage than 1x damage x7 because of overkill on frigs. And the skills base for the golem is really, really serious. I think your approach is going to make sense UNTIL they bring out a proper salvage ship. A phoon, for example, nerfed for fire power and tank, but with big cargo, maybe a bit more speed and that all important tractor bonus would make an uber salvager. And would surely have lower skill requirements than the golem. Swire
HippoKing Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 18:27:00 - [30] Personally, I think the best way of making it a choice to make against the CNR would be to increase the drone bay. That way, the CNR does more damage with missiles, while the Golem does more damage with drones. Neither is inherently better - you simply make your choice as to which you prefer.
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:10:00 - [31] Originally by: SIR PRIME I'm not entirely convinced that comparing the Golem to the one faction ship thats reknowned for being so overbalanced that its the automatic choice for almost every missioner in game is the best argument. Compare it to the other Marauders and it certainly equips itself well. Technically thats an argument to nerf the CNR or raise the other faction bs's. The Golem might be indicative of the rest of the Marauders, I don't know. If so, they should all receive either a boost to make them comparable to cheaper, less skill intensive alternatives, or should be MUCH cheaper to build. Boost the Golem
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:50:00 - [32] Edited by: Zeknichov on 21/12/2007 21:50:53 The Golem does need a boost. Compared to the CNR it does slightly less damage and has a quite significantly greater tank. However CNR has no problems tanking missions already and DPS, even if only slightly provides a boost to tank. Kill ships faster take less damage. Most importantly though DPS reduces time to complete mission which improves isk/h which is all mission runners care about. The Golem costs more than the CNR and requires a lot more skills. The Golem is a T2 ship after all. CCP thinks they can get away with creating the Golem as about battle equivalent to the CNR but then add 3 slots for tractor beams and double the cargo to compensate for the price and skill requirement difference. This is the wrong approach. No one cares about cargo bay and tractor beams when CCP also nerfed mission drops. Give all Marauders one more turret/missile slot.
Captain Jack Caldari Tadakastu-Obata Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.21 22:02:00 - [33] Edited by: Captain Jack on 21/12/2007 22:05:52 Is it worth hundreds of millions just to have a tractorbeam and 2 salvagers in your BS? All these number crunchers here and in that others thread, endless arguments of what is better CNR or Golem, percentages, calculations, recalculations. You like Golem? BUY IT if you have money. You have CNR, KUDOS to YOU that you have played effortly and earned it or bought it. IMHO Golem is a PvP BS. But Its great to have it for PvE too. It IS a problem if you like to crunch numbers though. And if you do - you are most likely PvP. Both Golem and CNR have advantages in PvP and they are both VERY expensive. Would you want to lose CNR in PvP battle - NO. I don't think you would want to lose a Golem either. So, IMHO - they are both good PvE ships because they are too precious to lose.
Barbicane	Posted - 2007.12.22 00:05:00 - [34] How come everyone is forgetting the target painting bonus? The golem is begging to be used with siege launchers + javelin torps + t2 target painter(s). With Marauder lvl 4 and Signature Focusing lvl 4, each t2 painter will increase the target's signature radius by 49.5%. I do agree though: If you don't have t2 torp + painter skills, then you're probably better off with a cruise missile CNR.
neutero	Posted - 2007.12.22 10:01:00 - [35] Originally by: Barbicane How come everyone is forgetting the target painting bonus? The golem is begging to be used with siege launchers + javelin torps + t2 target painter(s). With Marauder lvl 4 and Signature Focusing lvl 4, each t2 painter will increase the target's signature radius by 49.5%. I do agree though: If you don't have t2 torp + painter skills, then you're probably better off with a cruise missile CNR. The torp range reduction nerf makes them pretty useless in missions now as most BS and EW cruisers orbit outside their range. Boost the Golem
Barbicane	Posted - 2007.12.22 12:09:00 - [36] Originally by: neutero Originally by: Barbicane How come everyone is forgetting the target painting bonus? The golem is begging to be used with siege launchers + javelin torps + t2 target painter(s). With Marauder lvl 4 and Signature Focusing lvl 4, each t2 painter will increase the target's signature radius by 49.5%. I do agree though: If you don't have t2 torp + painter skills, then you're probably better off with a cruise missile CNR. The torp range reduction nerf makes them pretty useless in missions now as most BS and EW cruisers orbit outside their range. With good skills and one or two missile speed rigs, Javelin torps will reach those BS and EW cruisers just fine. You could also fit an afterburner, or use webber drones, or a combination. I have also picked off some of them with medium t2 drones. It takes some time, but it works. It's not a major problem.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.23 02:12:00 - [37] A Golem with a RoF bonus is the most broken thing imaginable. You people do realize that that would let it do 1850 DPS with overloaded Siege launchers, out to 30km, which it could fire continuously for nearly three minutes without risking a burnout due to the three free high slots for heat sinks. Not to mention it would simultaneously run the best subcapital tank in the game.
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 02:19:00 - [38] Originally by: Xequecal A Golem with a RoF bonus is the most broken thing imaginable. You people do realize that that would let it do 1850 DPS with overloaded Siege launchers, out to 30km, which it could fire continuously for nearly three minutes without risking a burnout due to the three free high slots for heat sinks. Not to mention it would simultaneously run the best subcapital tank in the game. lies:)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.23 02:38:00 - [39] Edited by: Akita T on 23/12/2007 02:38:00 Ok, let's see... if NOTHING ELSE, then at least: * T2 large perma-tank only slightly worse as low-end faction XL perma-tank, but more than enough for just about any mission... means probably 1 bil ISK saved in booster alone (seriously, please, NO FACTION booster on Golem) * roughly half ammo cost, so if you run faction ammo, saves you roughly 4 mil per hour too (and if you don't use faction ammo, what the hell are you bothering with a CNR in the first place anyway?) * better flight speed, cargo, salvage/loot while you mission, so probably even more savings in ISK/hour If you also factor in the fiting cost (not just the ship cost), for an acceptable "lag-proof" tank (i.e. permatank), Golem gets a cheaper one. And if you factor in faction ammo DPS vs CNR regular T1 ammo DPS, it's almost the same DPS (but better alpha on Golem), so you only get a "real"/significant advantage if you use faction ammo on CNR too (and then, it costs more on CNR). All in all, granted, the Golem isn't that great compared to the CNR, and an experienced mission-runner MIGHT pull off missions just fine in a T2-only fit CNR, but you can't deny the Golem is a huge step up from a regular Raven. And the only reason CNR might be better for some is because the freaking CNR is "imba" as hell to begin with. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.

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