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Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd. THORN Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:38:00 - [1] Would the Amarr problem be solved? -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:41:00 - [2] Hey, Caldari needs a boost first, wait before the more important race to be boosted first Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! We wont touch this sig! - Cortes I lied - Cortes LIAR!
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:46:00 - [3] Originally by: arbalesttom Hey, Caldari needs a boost first, wait before the more important race to be boosted first No. We really don't. The last patch really solidified this. I mean, ****, you might see Scorpians again.
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd. THORN Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:47:00 - [4] I want an Amarr boost for when the day comes that I try out Amarr ships... -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
port22 The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:48:00 - [5] Originally by: arbalesttom Hey, Caldari needs a boost first, wait before the more important race to be boosted first LMFAO Originally by: Venetian Tar port, your mum hates you, and your dads shagging your sister
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:50:00 - [6] Originally by: J Valkor Originally by: arbalesttom Hey, Caldari needs a boost first, wait before the more important race to be boosted first No. We really don't. The last patch really solidified this. I mean, ****, you might see Scorpians again. The was the 'joke-factor' in here... Yes boost amarr! Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! We wont touch this sig! - Cortes I lied - Cortes LIAR!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Would the Amarr problem be solved? Two things. First, make sure you include the question in the post instead of the title. The question, for reference, was: Quote: If the thermal damage was doubled for all laser crystals... Would the Amarr problem be solved? My opinion is yes as long as they didn't remove the EM damage component. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Would the Amarr problem be solved? No, because of the Ships. Ships with Damage Bonus will do 50% more damage than Ships without Damage Bonus will do. This will overpower the Ships that are good atm and still not fix Ships that need a boost. Afterall I think it is more the heavy EM focus that will lead to less damage itself. More Thermal on Crystals please, this will fix the problem of Omnitanks aswell. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:54:00 - [9] Edited by: Dillius Archania on 19/12/2007 01:54:13 Dunno if you should just say a straight up doubling of the thermal damage values, but it would definitely help if damage was added to each of the crystals and that damage be of the thermal type.
Incantare Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:55:00 - [10] Increasing thermal damage at the expense of EM would solve one of amarr's problems. It wouldn't help with the omen's fittings, the maller and prophecy's lack of damage output or any other issue but it would be a good start. Originally by: J Valkor Originally by: arbalesttom Hey, Caldari needs a boost first, wait before the more important race to be boosted first No. We really don't. The last patch really solidified this. I mean, ****, you might see Scorpians again. Caldari got many boosts recently but that doesn't the entire race is fine. For example moa, ferox and raptor still need looking at.

Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:59:00 - [11] What if the EM resist on armor was lowered to bring armor in line with shields in terms of total resists?
Thor Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:01:00 - [12] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Arthur Frayn Would the Amarr problem be solved? No, because of the Ships. Ships with Damage Bonus will do 50% more damage than Ships without Damage Bonus will do. This will overpower the Ships that are good atm and still not fix Ships that need a boost. Afterall I think it is more the heavy EM focus that will lead to less damage itself. More Thermal on Crystals please, this will fix the problem of Omnitanks aswell. If that logic was any fuzzier, it would need a haircut.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Incantare Caldari got many boosts recently but that doesn't the entire race is fine. For example moa, ferox and raptor still need looking at. Meanwhile the rest of the entire lineup is peachy. Caldari is very much in the dominant position in quite a few ship classes ATM. This is the position that got Gallente in so much trouble that they got across the board nerfs to every ship they had. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Ulstan What if the EM resist on armor was lowered to bring armor in line with shields in terms of total resists? It would still really suck to be shooting Lasers against Sansha ratters. (Sorry, couldn't resist ... it's from another thread). -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:10:00 - [15] Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 02:11:08 Originally by: Incantare Increasing thermal damage at the expense of EM would solve one of amarr's problems. It wouldn't help with the omen's fittings, the maller and prophecy's lack of damage output or any other issue but it would be a good start. Originally by: J Valkor Originally by: arbalesttom Hey, Caldari needs a boost first, wait before the more important race to be boosted first No. We really don't. The last patch really solidified this. I mean, ****, you might see Scorpians again. Caldari got many boosts recently but that doesn't the entire race is fine. For example moa, ferox and raptor still need looking at. This Ships got special purpose to fix the lack to time Missles spend to reach the Target. They all are very good on high range but sadly got no non fleet purpose like Amarr. Actualy I think 1 more Turret on Moa, Eagle and Ferox is needed. As soon as T2 Turrents and Amno fitted they lack a bit of Damage compared to Galente Ships. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Incantare Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren Meanwhile the rest of the entire lineup is peachy. Caldari is very much in the dominant position in quite a few ship classes ATM. This is the position that got Gallente in so much trouble that they got across the board nerfs to every ship they had. -Liang Caldari are dominant in one ship class, that's recons. The rest is completly debatable. There are also other issues which remain, like HAM fittings and the greater difficulty fitting gang mods for the drake and nighthawk compared to their counterparts. The caracal is nothing special either especially now that its most useful fitting as has been nerfed along with dampeners, and the flycatcher is the least survivable dictor, though not the worst. But on the whole the race is now more competitive. Note that I didn't say overpowered and don't consider Caldari's state today in any way comparable to Gallente's in the past. Anyway, my point was that how many boosts are race gets should not affect the balance of individual ships, and it seems the devs agree since the deimos got boosted back in the days of nos domis / nos myrms and every other ship in the gallente lineup aside from the eris and ares was great.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:51:00 - [17] I love amarr, fly em on a daily basis, and wouldnt mind if they want to up the dmg a bit, but doing something like doubling the thermal dmg and leaving em would overpower the race by so far its not funny. you guys just need to learn to accept that fact that us amarr pilots have a different set of problems to deal with then some of the other races, and oddly enough we do get benefits from having to deal with those disadvantages, if you cant find the benefit then you need to look harder.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 03:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Shardrael I love amarr, fly em on a daily basis, and wouldnt mind if they want to up the dmg a bit, but doing something like doubling the thermal dmg and leaving em would overpower the race by so far its not funny. you guys just need to learn to accept that fact that us amarr pilots have a different set of problems to deal with then some of the other races, and oddly enough we do get benefits from having to deal with those disadvantages, if you cant find the benefit then you need to look harder. Blasphemy. Better edit that post before The Great Amarrian Whining Squad catches you saying something like that. I happen to agree to a point, but it's undeniable that there are problems in excess of the other races. Indirect boosting may be the way to go with it, because it's really a razor thin line between lessening some of those problems and making the race (as a whole) ridiculously overpowered. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.19 03:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Liang Nuren Blasphemy. Better edit that post before The Great Amarrian Whining Squad catches you saying something like that. I am reasonably sure i've seen your name in more then one caldari whine thread. But as you mentioned you only fly minmatar, caldari and gallente. So i guess the game is balanced now for all that matters. More seriously though (i assume you're just venting off a bit from that other thread) concerning the OP: doubling our thermal dmg would mean amarr would ******* own. Imagine that my abaddon does nearly 900dps from guns alone (conflag) which is 50:50 em/therm. So we'd be talking 1350dps out to frikkin 15km plus 10km falloff most of which would be thermal. That would be awesome and totally unbalanced at the same time. So unfortunately it would be overpowered. The way i see it em dmg isn't bad at all. But too much of it means you are screwed beyond compare once you meat an eanm+dmg control or 2xeanm+dmg control tank of any kind. And contrary to popular belief these tanks are among the most efficient pvp tanks in existence. eanm+dmg control+plate gives me more (effective) hp on my abaddon than energized mag/reac/thermic plating + dmg control. I lose a bit on therm/exp/kin but its really negligible given that i can fit one more dmg mod. If i'd fit another plate the tank would be better by far for all resistances. 3 slots > 4 with the added bonus of 80+em resistance - there you have your problem. CCP screwed up with the armor tanking somewhere on the way and not sure if they'll ever have the courage to fix it because it'll make a lot of armor tankers cry. Of course you can make em dmg of lasers smaller in favour of kin or therm which are ok for both shield and armor(maybe that was what the op proposed?). But that takes away lots of the racial charme and basically makes em dmg as a whole obsolete. So imo better fix the root of the problem which is the overall uselessness of armor hardeners and even worse those specific energized platings. Hardeners are only really cool if you can fit something like at least a 5 or 6 slot tank. Who does this in "real world" pvp?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 04:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Wu Jiun Who does this in "real world" pvp? Edit: Most importantly some ships are bad because of their slot and fitting layout not so much the lasers. Look at omen/maller/proph and apoc for example. I fit armor hardeners on both my Hurricanes and my Myrmidons........ but I do agree with you. ;-) Also... wtf is up with Amarr fittings? Either they can't fit guns for PG or CPU ... I really liked Goumindong's interpretation of Amarr (thou shalt not be limited by PG). Overall, I'm a fan of most of his work... despite our current "disagreement" ;-) -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren

Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.19 04:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shardrael I love amarr, fly em on a daily basis, and wouldnt mind if they want to up the dmg a bit, but doing something like doubling the thermal dmg and leaving em would overpower the race by so far its not funny. you guys just need to learn to accept that fact that us amarr pilots have a different set of problems to deal with then some of the other races, and oddly enough we do get benefits from having to deal with those disadvantages, if you cant find the benefit then you need to look harder. Blasphemy. Better edit that post before The Great Amarrian Whining Squad catches you saying something like that. I happen to agree to a point, but it's undeniable that there are problems in excess of the other races. Indirect boosting may be the way to go with it, because it's really a razor thin line between lessening some of those problems and making the race (as a whole) ridiculously overpowered. -Liang they are hard to work around its true, however for the tank and range they have, there are plenty of setups that work exceptionally well and the few problems amarr has are more often problems with individual ships then the race themselves, for example switching slot layouts on apoc and geddon would be nice, abaddon using less cap would be nice, etc. However at the time geddon and abaddon both have roles they do exceptionally well. for example even with that laser usage a passive tanked abaddon has a tank so strong no single bs will break it before it dies, and can spit fire at 45km out with scorch, and thats just my skills, not even maxed. geddon even with its lowly 3 mids makes a great cheap sniper dmg dealer, and is a good cheap roaming pulse boat. the list goes on, I realize they dont occupy the role some people would like them too, but such is the state of the game and I think its a more worthy use of time to learn how to fly the roles they do manage well then hoping for them to be more competitive in another role.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:06:00 - [22] The game needs a major mechanics change to fix Amarr/lasers completely. Quite simply, being able to MWD up next to your target in seconds combined with 24km warp disruptor range means that outside of fleet range is not an advantage. That means up until the previous patch Amarr and Caldari were terrible in the DPS role. They had a few utility and ewar ships that were desired but when you're looking for that ship to blow up what you've got disabled, it's Gallente, Gallente, Gallente. Now in this patch, the torp change means Caldari can closerange gank with the best of them. Amarr are left holding it. Minmatar also have similar problems due to a lack of damage, but they somewhat compensate with a wide variety of utility/ewar ships that are desired, more than any other race. However, the damage problem is still an issue for them, as nobody ever wants a Tempest or Maelstrom in their roaming gang or gate camp. A Megathron or Hyperion are just flat out better. The only thing that matters here from your non-Scorpion battleships is damage and Gallente boats simply do the most damage. Range on short range guns is not an advantage. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. If Amarr ships could do 99% of blasterboat damage at 100km optimal, blasters would still be better. The heavily plated gank BS is ALWAYS the worst target to primary. Since they're not going to shoot at you until everyone's dead anyway, you gain no advantage from shooting at 50km or 100km over 5km. Moving into range is a problem completely eliminated by MWDs, you are in blaster range before you can lock the target.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Xequecal The game needs a major mechanics change to fix Amarr/lasers completely. Quite simply, being able to MWD up next to your target in seconds combined with 24km warp disruptor range means that outside of fleet range is not an advantage. That means up until the previous patch Amarr and Caldari were terrible in the DPS role. They had a few utility and ewar ships that were desired but when you're looking for that ship to blow up what you've got disabled, it's Gallente, Gallente, Gallente. Now in this patch, the torp change means Caldari can closerange gank with the best of them. Amarr are left holding it. Minmatar also have similar problems due to a lack of damage, but they somewhat compensate with a wide variety of utility/ewar ships that are desired, more than any other race. However, the damage problem is still an issue for them, as nobody ever wants a Tempest or Maelstrom in their roaming gang or gate camp. A Megathron or Hyperion are just flat out better. QFT. The rest... however... I disagree with. ;-) Quote: The only thing that matters here from your non-Scorpion battleships is damage and Gallente boats simply do the most damage. Range on short range guns is not an advantage. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. If Amarr ships could do 99% of blasterboat damage at 100km optimal, blasters would still be better. The heavily plated gank BS is ALWAYS the worst target to primary. Since they're not going to shoot at you until everyone's dead anyway, you gain no advantage from shooting at 50km or 100km over 5km. Moving into range is a problem completely eliminated by MWDs, you are in blaster range before you can lock the target. Range is an advantage... and it's one that I imagine is pretty delicate to balance properly. Anyway, optimal range/falloff bonuses are damage bonuses (though significantly weaker ones). -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:26:00 - [24] Edited by: Xequecal on 19/12/2007 05:31:03 Originally by: Liang Nuren Range is an advantage... and it's one that I imagine is pretty delicate to balance properly. Anyway, optimal range/falloff bonuses are damage bonuses (though significantly weaker ones). -Liang No, it isn't. How is it an advantage? Range on short range guns (blasters, torps, pulse lasers, autocannons) is simply irrelevant. If you're solo and 50km away from your target, they will just warp out. If you are in gang, your plated gank BS is last on the priority list of targets to kill. It doesn't matter that your 50km or even 100km range makes it hard for them to shoot you, they weren't planning on shooting you till everything else was dead anyway. You might as well switch to Gallente, come within 5km, and do more damage. There's no disadvantage here, other than having a harder time running away when everyone else in your gang is dead. Range only matters within 24km warp disruptor range where you can force them to fight you or die, but MWDs make closing to range within this window far too easy. Even starting at 24km, the target will be within blaster range before you can achieve a lock. If you try to kite them starting at this range, they can go in the other direction and warp out. On this note, Amarr ships partnered with an Arazu/Lachesis become very good, because this ship has a large scram range and it suddenly allows the range advantage to become good. You can scram them at 50km and fire Scorch, and the blaster/torp/AC ships cannot escape or shoot back. However, it again requires resorting to Gallente ships to work.
Don Juanito	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 19/12/2007 05:31:03 Originally by: Liang Nuren Range is an advantage... and it's one that I imagine is pretty delicate to balance properly. Anyway, optimal range/falloff bonuses are damage bonuses (though significantly weaker ones). -Liang No, it isn't. How is it an advantage? Range on short range guns (blasters, torps, pulse lasers, autocannons) is simply irrelevant. If you're solo and 50km away from your target, they will just warp out. If you are in gang, your plated gank BS is last on the priority list of targets to kill. It doesn't matter that your 50km or even 100km range makes it hard for them to shoot you, they weren't planning on shooting you till everything else was dead anyway. You might as well switch to Gallente, come within 5km, and do more damage. There's no disadvantage here, other than having a harder time running away when everyone else in your gang is dead. Range only matters within 24km warp disruptor range where you can force them to fight you or die, but MWDs make closing to range within this window far too easy. Even starting at 24km, the target will be within blaster range before you can achieve a lock. If you try to kite them starting at this range, they can go in the other direction and warp out. On this note, Amarr ships partnered with an Arazu/Lachesis become very good, because this ship has a large scram range and it suddenly allows the range advantage to become good. You can scram them at 50km and fire Scorch, and the blaster/torp/AC ships cannot escape or shoot back. However, it again requires resorting to Gallente ships to work. Range is an advantage because that plate mega has to get in antimatter optimal to be doing serious dps (yeah null works but that 10s reload to high damage, or being stuck with suboptimal dps for the duration of the fight). while it MWDS into range, a geddon/abaddon is doing FULL damage. or a Raven doing blaster-dps via torps. thus its lessened optimal dps is offset by the dps it does while the target is unable to do any/as much. its the same concept from trying to outrange other fleets with snipers, only on a smaller sense on the battleship level, the range advantage of pulses is pretty fine, except when compared to the torp raven, which needs to be toned down tbh. but if you cannot see how range is an advantage (if it worked) you need to play eve more.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Don Juanito Range is an advantage because that plate mega has to get in antimatter optimal to be doing serious dps (yeah null works but that 10s reload to high damage, or being stuck with suboptimal dps for the duration of the fight). while it MWDS into range, a geddon/abaddon is doing FULL damage. or a Raven doing blaster-dps via torps. thus its lessened optimal dps is offset by the dps it does while the target is unable to do any/as much. its the same concept from trying to outrange other fleets with snipers, only on a smaller sense on the battleship level, the range advantage of pulses is pretty fine, except when compared to the torp raven, which needs to be toned down tbh. but if you cannot see how range is an advantage (if it worked) you need to play eve more. Do you know how quickly a MWD-fitted battleship crosses 24km to large blaster range? It takes seconds. And that's battleships, let along BCs/cruisers which have even worse problems with the range on their short range weaponry being irrelevant due to the faster speed. He'll be mostly there by the time you lock him. If he's beyond 24km, he can simply warp out rather than close to you. If you attempt to burn away to kite him at ~20km range, at any point he can simply turn in the other direction away from you and get away.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:51:00 - [27] Quote: Range is an advantage... and it's one that I imagine is pretty delicate to balance properly. Range on it's own is not really a significant advantage, it can be minor is specific situations but mostly it's effect is negligible. The ability to dictate range on the other hand is a whole different can of worms. The latter is the one that allows you to fight at a range where you have the advantage so you could be fighting within your optimal while your opponent is fighting deep in falloff. MWD's allow closing the gap quickly and due to Amarr's massive cap use constantly running a MWD is unfeasible in most cases, so the ability to dictate range is not in the hands of Amarr ship... leaving the initial range bonus once again negligible. If an abaddon could shoot out to 45km or so with close range weapons and still be in optimal while Mr.Blasterthron needs to be within 5km optimal and the abaddon could dictate range you'd be forcing the blasterthron to either bring friends or switch his ammo to something he can actually hit with and it doing so giving the abaddon it's advantage for firing at range. On the flip side of the coin, having close range ships NOT able to close the gap is pretty damn useless. Hence the problem nearly every MMO developer has struggled with since the dawn of time becomes apparent: Range advantages leads to developers becoming alcoholics... err... well more so than usual. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Don Juanito	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Don Juanito Range is an advantage because that plate mega has to get in antimatter optimal to be doing serious dps (yeah null works but that 10s reload to high damage, or being stuck with suboptimal dps for the duration of the fight). while it MWDS into range, a geddon/abaddon is doing FULL damage. or a Raven doing blaster-dps via torps. thus its lessened optimal dps is offset by the dps it does while the target is unable to do any/as much. its the same concept from trying to outrange other fleets with snipers, only on a smaller sense on the battleship level, the range advantage of pulses is pretty fine, except when compared to the torp raven, which needs to be toned down tbh. but if you cannot see how range is an advantage (if it worked) you need to play eve more. Do you know how quickly a MWD-fitted battleship crosses 24km to large blaster range? It takes seconds. And that's battleships, let along BCs/cruisers which have even worse problems with the range on their short range weaponry being irrelevant due to the faster speed. He'll be mostly there by the time you lock him. If he's beyond 24km, he can simply warp out rather than close to you. If you attempt to burn away to kite him at ~20km range, at any point he can simply turn in the other direction away from you and get away. yes but an amarr battleship is easily capable of 1000+ dps while fitting a similar tank. so if it takes 2 cycles of a mwd to get in range, yeah it might be seconds, but you're way ahead in damage done. THATS the range advantage. i fully admit it doesnt work on the cruiser and frigate level, but its fine on the BS side.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.19 06:07:00 - [29] Edited by: Xequecal on 19/12/2007 06:06:56 Originally by: Don Juanito yes but an amarr battleship is easily capable of 1000+ dps while fitting a similar tank. so if it takes 2 cycles of a mwd to get in range, yeah it might be seconds, but you're way ahead in damage done. THATS the range advantage. i fully admit it doesnt work on the cruiser and frigate level, but its fine on the BS side. You have to LOCK them first. While you're doing that they're coming straight at you. A plated gank Abaddon will LOSE to a plated gank Megathron if the engagement starts at 24km, despite the fact that the Abaddon has 40% more effective hitpoints, an extra gun, and the supposed range advantage. Damage is simply everything, end of story.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.19 06:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Would the Amarr problem be solved? No, it would be just begining.



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