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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 02:29:00 -
[1]
Hey peeps.
As a general note, the Tier 2 BC's are all wonderful ships. Yes nerfbat here and there they have taken a beating over the past year but many of us tend to hold them close to our hearts.
What I propose as an idea below (expanded per race ship) is a role class for the T2 'Heavy Battlecruiser' Class. The vessel would take the Tier 2 hull variant of it's predecessor and come to the fray with several key bonuses.
As fellow corp mates and myself have thought out, the 'Pocket Battleship' was a class of maritime vessel used predominantly by the German Navy during WWII. Such a famous example would be the Bismarck. The ships were renowned for being much smaller than their Battleship counterparts yet packing a very potent punch.
The main 'role' bonus the ships would receive is a reduction in PG use to enable the ships to fit a small number of battleship class weapon platforms on the Heavy Battlecruiser.
Examples include around 3 Siege Launchers (with good skills) on the Caldari 'Harrier' and the possibility of 3 Mega Pulse Lasers on the Amarr 'Iconoclast'
In addition to the bonus, each ship gains a hp bonus based upon Heavy Battlecruiser Skill level.
In summary, the ship is created to enter a battle and lay down fire nearly equivalent to that of a Battleship whilst remaining more agile than it's larger counterpart.
This idea is very rough on the edges guys, the figures quoted may not work well, was just a quick bit of maths. Either way, with a bit of tinkering I can see this is both a niche PvE and PvP ship if CCP were to see this as a useful idea.
All criticsm is welcome...as long as it is constructive!
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 02:29:00 -
[2]
Caldari Name: Harrier Hull: Drake Role: Heavy Battlecruiser
Designed to provide a fast response, siege platform to a fight. The Heavy Battlecruiser class is designed from the ground up to
arrive upon a battlefield and remain there until the final punch is thrown. Utilising state of the art siege warfare power
couplings, the Heavy Battlecruiser is able to field great destructive firepower that similar sized ships can not.
Developer: Kaalakiota As befits one of the largest weapons manufacturers in the known world, Kaalakiota's ships are very combat focused. Favoring the
traditional Caldari combat strategy, they are designed around a substantial number of weapons systems, especially missile launchers.
However, they have rather weak armor and structure, relying more on shields for protection.
Battlecruiser Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire per level
Heavy Battlecruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to shield hitpoints per level and 85-90% reduction in powergrid needs for Siege Missile Launcher
Modules
Fitting slots: 8/6/4/2 Power Grid: 900 CPU: 550 Hardpoints: 0 Turret/7 Launcher Shield HP: 6250 Shield Resitances: 0/60/70/80 Shield Recharge: 1400.00sec Armor HP: 4063 Armor Resitances: 60/10/62.5/86.25 Hull HP: 3800 Velocity: 140m/s Drone Bay: 25m^3s Drone Bandwith: 25 Mgbits/sec Cargo Bay: 345m^3 Capacitor Capcity: 2950.5 Capacitor Recharge: 770.00sec
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 02:30:00 -
[3]
Gallente Name: Aeolus Hull: Myrmidon Role: Heavy Battlecruiser
Designed to provide a fast response, siege platform to a fight. The Heavy Battlecruiser class is designed from the ground up to
arrive upon a battlefield and remain there until the final punch is thrown. Utilising state of the art siege warfare power
couplings, the Heavy Battlecruiser is able to field great destructive firepower that similar sized ships can not.
Developer: Duvolle Labs Duvolle Labs manufactures sturdy ships with a good mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. Since the company is one of New Eden's foremost manufacturers of particle blasters, its ships tend to favor turrets and thus have somewhat higher power output than normal.
Battlecruiser Bonus: 7.5% bonus to armour repair amount and 5% bonus to 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
Heavy Battlecruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to armour hitpoints and 75-80% decrease in large hybrid turret powergrid need per level
Fitting slots: 6/5/6/2 Power Grid: 1200 CPU: 500 Hardpoints: 6 Turret/ 0 Launcher Shield HP: 3995 Shield Resitances: 0/60/85/60 Shield Recharge: 1400.00sec Armor HP: 4395 Armor Resitances: 60/10/83.75/67.5 Hull HP: 3800 Velocity: 145m/s Drone Bay: 125m^3s Drone Bandwith: 125 Mgbits/sec Cargo Bay: 400m^3 Capacitor Capcity: 2900.5 Capacitor Recharge: 640.00sec
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 02:31:00 -
[4]
Minmatar Name: Tornado Hull: Hurricane Role: Heavy Battlecruiser
Designed to provide a fast response, siege platform to a fight. The Heavy Battlecruiser class is designed from the ground up to
arrive upon a battlefield and remain there until the final punch is thrown. Utilising state of the art siege warfare power
couplings, the Heavy Battlecruiser is able to field great destructive firepower that similar sized ships can not.
Developer: Boundless Creations Boundless Creation's ships are based on the Brutor tribe's philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore tend to take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential.
Battlecruiser Bonus: 5% increase in projectile weapons damage and Rate of Fire per level
Heavy Battlecruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to armour hitpoints and 85-90% decrease in large projectile turret powergrid need per level
Fitting slots: 8/4/6/2 Power Grid: 1400 CPU: 450 Hardpoints: 6 Turret/ 3 Launcher Shield HP: 4336 Shield Resitances: 0/60/40/20 Shield Recharge: 1400.00sec Armor HP: 4900 Armor Resitances: 73.5/20/83.75/67.5 Hull HP: 3800 Velocity: 165m/s Drone Bay: 30m^3s Drone Bandwith: 25 Mgbits/sec Cargo Bay: 475m^3 Capacitor Capcity: 2870.5 Capacitor Recharge: 760.00sec
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 02:32:00 -
[5]
Amarr Name: Iconoclast Hull: Harbinger Role: Heavy Battlecruiser
Designed to provide a fast response, siege platform to a fight. The Heavy Battlecruiser class is designed from the ground up to
arrive upon a battlefield and remain there until the final punch is thrown. Utilising state of the art siege warfare power
couplings, the Heavy Battlecruiser is able to field great destructive firepower that similar sized ships can not.
Developer: Carthum Conglomerate Carthum ships are the very embodiment of the Amarrian warfare philosophy. Possessing sturdy armor and advanced weapons systems, they provide a nice mix of offense and defense. On the other hand, their electronics and shield systems tend to be rather limited.
Battlecruiser Bonus: 10% reduction in laser capacitor need and 5% bonus to laser damage per level
Heavy Battlecruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to armour hitpoints and 80-85% decrease in large energy turret powergrid need per level
Fitting slots: 8/4/6/2 Power Grid: 1590 CPU: 400 Hardpoints: 7 Turret/ 0 Launcher Shield HP: 3590 Shield Resitances: 60/70/53.2/35 Shield Recharge: 1400.00sec Armor HP: 4900 Armor Resitances: 73.5/20/83.75/67.5 Hull HP: 3800 Velocity: 150m/s Drone Bay: 50m^3s Drone Bandwith: 50 Mgbits/sec Cargo Bay: 350m^3 Capacitor Capcity: 3200.5 Capacitor Recharge: 760.00sec
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HeadWar
North Star Networks Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 04:19:00 -
[6]
The Bismarck was a true battleship, not a pocket variety. (And a fairly large one at that.)
Since you didn't know that, your idea obviously has no merit whatsoever.
In general, I'd suggest making the power grid reduction a role bonus, rather than level based, much like the Stealth Bombers. Both to be able to give it a "real" T2 bonus, and to make them possible to fit in a sensible fashion without having to train the skill to lvl 5. (I'm still scarred by the old Cheetah, which at level 4 required a full rack of CPUs in the low slots, and still couldn't have anything active in the mids.)
One of the main problems I see with them is actually one of graphics. Sticking oversized turrets on a ship looks pretty strange. Stealth bombers get away with it because launchers aren't shown externally on the ship.
Looking at the Minmatar version (the only one I'm qualified to comment on, since I only fly Minmatar ships), it could easily fit 6x Dual 425mm ACs, which seems a bit excessive. You would probably want to lower this, either by reducing the grid bonus, or removing high/turret slots. Or maybe introduce a penalty like on a destroyer, -25% to RoF, or something similar.
Actually, I'm gonna comment on the Caldari one as well. How come it gets stuck with Siege Launchers, while the others could potentially fit arties/beams/rails? I'd suggest making the other ships have their grid bonus apply only to short range weapons as well. (Or we could have two different T2 versions, one with long range weapons, one with short range.)
There, a rather mixed bag of comments. Sorry about the Bismarck *****, but if I hadn't done it, someone else would have.
--- Не поговорите русского. F1, F2, F3... |
delta phi
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Posted - 2007.12.22 06:19:00 -
[7]
good idea needs work tho
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.12.22 07:36:00 -
[8]
i much rather have them working on that assault T2 bs.
but the idea is not bad. needs work though
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.22 08:05:00 -
[9]
Is this a joke?
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Conrad Rock
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.12.22 08:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Goumindong Is this a joke?
Comfirm
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Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 10:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Thargat on 22/12/2007 10:48:00
Originally by: HeadWar There, a rather mixed bag of comments. Sorry about the Bismarck *****, but if I hadn't done it, someone else would have.
HeadWar is composed of 50,900 tonnes of industrial luv....
edit: oh sorry... that was the bismarck
To get back on track... I kinda like the idea, but there is a risk that we'll just get a new kind of nanopwn ship. There are plenty of damage setups out there and I think that high damage slow rate of fire is just the wrong way to go (it encourages blobbing). BCs are already potent enough damagedealers. They should however boost their respective bonuses a bit a maybe make a more potent short range variant of all the BCs. Today even the larger guns on BSs can hit smaller targets and the smaller ships are a bit weak on the dps side (like most AS), the result is that people tend to fly either BSs/BCs or high dps nanoships (the role that a pocket battleship would excel at as I understand it). Maybe a new "marauder" class BC (like the new BS)?
There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius. |
San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 10:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: San Rintu on 22/12/2007 10:54:06 Apologies for the inherent Bismarck***** up. This was written at 3 in the morning lol. I take an interest in WWII History. This will be edited to the Graf Spee shortly...
As I said, the PG needs were just a calculation not taking into account Engineering or Weapon/Adv Weapon upgrade skills. Due to this some seem a lot more overpowered.
The initial Idea was to allow a max of maybe 3 of the Battleship modules in the high slots. (Providing a boost to DPS against larger ships)
As again stated it's an idea that does need a lot of work but one that I can see being useful for the Tier 2 battlecruiser hull.
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Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 10:57:00 -
[13]
Actually, I don't know if CCPs engine supports it. But it would be cool if they were given a bonus for say the first 2 or 3 large guns (so that if you manage to fit 5 large guns you'd have a severe penalty on them but if you fit 2 large and the rest medium/small you get a bonus).
There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius. |
San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:01:00 -
[14]
Quote: In general, I'd suggest making the power grid reduction a role bonus, rather than level based, much like the Stealth Bombers.
I agree with the role bonus for the PG use. I saw the PG 85-90% role similar to that of the Force Recon though. So at a lower skill of Heavy BC, you can maybe fit 2 of the siege launchers but the ship does not really come into it's own till it's at least trained to IV which would allow you to fit 3 of them.
Whilst this would nerf the ship considerably, it gives you a much larger reason to be training the skill past learning it to fly it. (as with the Recon skill)
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:15:00 -
[15]
Quote: Actually, I'm gonna comment on the Caldari one as well. How come it gets stuck with Siege Launchers
This was a myriad of conundrums as well. Cruise missiles are already given roles for the Stealth Bombers, plus are much better at it due to the explo radius bonus. Hence if it was given that then there would be no point to the Harrier.
As the Siege launchers are in Caldari terms the only viable launcher to really be fitting, I can't really see a useful alternative. I toyed with the idea of giving the missiles an explo radius bonus (Siege Only) but that would seriously overpower them...It's a toughy.
And if you are going to write 'is this a joke' then please elaborate on why. I can understand that many would be opposed to the the idea, especially in such an early concept however such foundationless comments make it difficult for both others, devs and myself to make head or tail of.
If that is all the knowledgeable input that can be posted upon the forums then I would suggest switching to something along the lines of smacking two stones together to give your mind a rest.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:20:00 -
[16]
What is the point of this new ship?
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Eka Maladay
Gallente The Elliance Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:27:00 -
[17]
the passive shield tank on these ship are insanely good. Especially the drake one. it can tank at least 2000 dps... while doing 800 dps.
I have no problem with a damage increase but you need to do something about the tanking, these will make existing Command ship pretty much obsolete
----------------------------------------------- I tank, therefore I am. |
San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:36:00 -
[18]
Numbers are wrong and just a quick estimate...not saying it again.
Work out new ones and suggest them. I will then update the main posts. They will not replace command ships as these will not be able to fit Warfare Link modules due to the retrofitting to fit Battleship modules...prob should of stated that sorry.
The 'role' of this ship is to be a survivable, fleet warfare, battleship killer that is more maneuverable than it's larger counterpart. It's not meant to replace the fleet command ship, more blend with it to make a potent destructive force.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.22 19:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: San Rintu
The 'role' of this ship is to be a survivable, fleet warfare, battleship killer that is more maneuverable than it's larger counterpart. It's not meant to replace the fleet command ship, more blend with it to make a potent destructive force.
Why?
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.23 00:48:00 -
[20]
Edited by: San Rintu on 23/12/2007 00:48:23 another expansive post...
Why indeed, why do CCP release new ship classes when we could all fly about in frigates...
There are a great number of reasons for such a ship. Promoting anti-blob warfare (i.e eliminating the need for ganking larger ships), providing a similar, more PvP edged little brother to the Marauder, making use of the glorious Tier 2 BC hulls. Those are to but name a few.
The Heavy BC class would have it's inherent drawbacks. Fitting battleship weapon systems will inevitably leave the ship vulnerable to nano ships. I would speculate that it would probably have a lower scan resolution than it's T1 variant due to the heavier modules and possibly (however much it would kill them a great deal) lower sensor strength...did I just say that lol.
I'd ask in future that you use your fingers for a bit and put down some real suggestions rather than one word answers...This is as mentioned slighty and possibly given away in the 'Features and Ideas Discussion' title.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.12.23 04:05:00 -
[21]
To be honest, this idea looks a bit biased towards Caldari. Why does the 'Harrier' have totally different battlecruiser bonuses than the Drake? And more shield than the Drake? While the 'Aeolus' has less armor hp than the Myrmidon. The 'Iconoclast' has less armor hp than the Harbinger. All of them retain their T1 bonuses.. except the Caldari ship.
I'm very sorry, but nothing makes a suggestion less attractive than the smell of bias.
Just to point out the abovementioned, here are the primary hp values: Caldari: 6250 shield Gallente: 4395 armor Minmatar: 4900 armor Amarr: 4900 armor
Perhaps it was unintended or subconscious, but it really seems like you added the other ships simply for completeness sake.
Therefore, until proven otherwise, I don't approve of this.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Demtalin le'Mercennaire
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.23 07:43:00 -
[22]
One way to get around the ability of people to super fit these, could be to give them similar PG and CPU to their Tier 2 counterparts, but give them something like a -40% bonus to the need of PG and CPU of large weapons (of BS class weapons).
When I was first starting the game and reading about the BC's ability to field close to BS sized firepower but with a weaker defence, I'd imagined a BC version of a Stealth Bomber. -------- Sign this petition to save EVE TV |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.23 10:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: San Rintu
I'd ask in future that you use your fingers for a bit and put down some real suggestions rather than one word answers..
O.K. How about this, scrap the entire idea because its stupid.
I originally replied to this thread because i knew a bunch of pubbies were going to jump in and say "OMG great idea" when it isnt.
Lets ignore the fact that "a few battleship guns" in the manner you have percribed will do anything, or be a better idea to fit than cruiser guns and assume for a second that DPS does indeed go up.
Battlecruisers are big, heavy, slow ships with near battleship hit points. Now you want to increase their dps just because? Why would anyone not just fly a battleship, a tech 1 ship that fits battleship guns and has more grid and hit points?
Battlecruisers are already near borderline broken. They dont need more.
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BiggestT
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Posted - 2007.12.23 12:24:00 -
[24]
Hmmm
This wld make comm ships uzless, ppl wld much rather train for a dps mofo thats quicker to train and u dont need to be in a gang to fully utilize its prowess.
The gap between bs and bc is already incredibly fine, this wld upset the natural balance of all that is good and well in life and create some kind of wtfpwn-omg-that-bc-just-outtanked-my-bs-and did-almost-as-much-dmage-which-means-he-still-broke-my-tank-coz-hes-too-agile-for-my-weapons-to-hit (and yes im aware this is the definition of a command ship, but the training it requires makes it worthy). If u want a dps monster train marauders, it wld be only a tad longer anyway -.-
Oh and its late, so feel free to completely disregard everything i just said *disclaimers ftw*
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Shippon Shima
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Posted - 2007.12.25 04:30:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Shippon Shima on 25/12/2007 04:33:36 The Bismark and its sister ship Tirpitz were the heaviest, biggest battleships in the second world war right after the Yamato class battleships of the Japanese and their Shinano-class supercarrier (essentially a Yamato class hull with an armored flight deck.. conversion after they lost their carriers at Midway and Coral Sea).
You are thinking of the pocket battleships Graf Spee and Deutchsland.
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.25 05:24:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/12/2007 05:25:37 The only way this would be even remotely balanced is if you go to the other concept of "battlecruiser", mid-size hull with battleship firepower, cruiser defenses and mid-range speed. Essentially you go for the "eggshells with sledgehammers" design concept and make a ship with devastating firepower (especially to cruiser-size ships), but a weak tank that anything bigger than a cruiser will rip apart. With enough speed, it would have some ability to escape what it can't outgun (and with long-range weapons, to stay out of range of close-range heavier opponents), but it would be extremely vulnerable to any heavier ships operating with tacklers in support.
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