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Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.26 12:50:00 - [31] All the sudden this seems really fishy to me.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2007.12.26 13:18:00 - [32] Once the securities are in place EBANK is happy to provide the buyback offer at 100% on any amount. It saves you needing the spare capital on hand Nightcrow.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.12.26 13:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Riethe All the sudden this seems really fishy to me. An IPO out of the blue, no business plan, changing some of the details like the payment plan...taken alone those are indeed suspicious. However, he's putting 9B in assets in holding to cover 8B in bonds so not just the initial capital but a month's interest is covered. It's hard to argue with security like that. Further, it's perfectly normal to have a good business plan that will collapse once broadcast to the entire forum. Hence the need for secrecy. ___________________________________________ 5% Mining Implants & 5% Manufacturing Implants *From 110M to 150M
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.26 17:23:00 - [34] Originally by: Riethe All the sudden this seems really fishy to me. This has been really fishy since the very first post. I am currently not sure how this could be a scam... but there is no way I am investing just to find out. I love how people state a bunch of reservations they have... and then say "but I'm still giving you 2 billion isk!". Irrational exuberance indeed. If anyone wants to run a 100+ billion isk scam, now is the time. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Chu Ran Caldari Challenger Logistics Corporation Momentum Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:16:00 - [35] Edited by: Chu Ran on 26/12/2007 18:18:57 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Riethe All the sudden this seems really fishy to me. This has been really fishy since the very first post. I am currently not sure how this could be a scam... but there is no way I am investing just to find out. I love how people state a bunch of reservations they have... and then say "but I'm still giving you 2 billion isk!". Irrational exuberance indeed. If anyone wants to run a 100+ billion isk scam, now is the time. The only reason people are throwing their money at him is because he is willing to put up assets worth more than 110% of the total isk he is asking for with Ricdic (Ebank, I'm assuming). People are not basing their purchases on how trustworthy they feel the OP is, but rather on how trustworthy they feel Ricdic/Ebank is. Hence, that's why all of the people with reservations about the project are stating that their purchase commitments are only effective IF Ricdic confirms he has the collateral assets under his possession.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Chu Ran Hence, that's why all of the people with reservations about the project are stating that their purchase commitments are only effective IF Ricdic confirms he has the collateral assets under his possession. Ricdic confirming he holds collateral is by no means an indication that the business plan is profitable. For myself, I would think that profits are an important part of any investment, but apparently I am wrong. --
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Chu Ran Hence, that's why all of the people with reservations about the project are stating that their purchase commitments are only effective IF Ricdic confirms he has the collateral assets under his possession. Ricdic confirming he holds collateral is by no means an indication that the business plan is profitable. For myself, I would think that profits are an important part of any investment, but apparently I am wrong. I fully understand this. I understood this from before it was sold out. Yet I decided it was still too fishy to invest in. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Asymn	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:55:00 - [38] I retract my previous reserve of 400m shares.
Chu Ran Caldari Challenger Logistics Corporation Momentum Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 19:05:00 - [39] Edited by: Chu Ran on 26/12/2007 19:05:32 The whole point rests on what the investor has to lose. In the case that the venture isn't profitable and the OP cannot deliver on his promised monthly return (this is a fixed bond after all, not a variable one dependent upon how well the business is ran), Ricdic can easily liquidate some of the assets to meet that 7% promised return. In the case the OP's venture goes south in the first month/disappears, Ricdic can liquidate everything and each investor gets 10%+ return in the first month and all their invested isk back. Seems like a win/win situation to me. As long as you set a limit to how low the collateral can go down to before full liquidation takes place, investors can't lose out. For example, right now assuming collateral is 9 bil on a 8 bil total loan, one can say that when this collateral reaches 8.56 bil (7% above initial loan) due to selling off assets to meet the 7% monthly dividend obligation, full liquidation will take place.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2007.12.26 19:14:00 - [40] Originally by: Chu Ran [ In the case that the venture isn't profitable and the OP cannot deliver on his promised monthly return (this is a fixed bond after all, not a variable one dependent upon how well the business is ran), Ricdic can easily liquidate some of the assets to meet that 7% promised return. In the case the OP's venture goes south in the first month/disappears, Ricdic can liquidate everything and each investor gets 10%+ return in the first month and all their invested isk back. Ok, I hadnt noticed where it said, in the business plan, that the collateral was to be used to guarantee the intrest payments. Normally here in MD, business plans with collateral are using it as a surety on the principle. Of course who knows exactly which way its supposed to be, since the business plan is lacking any details. --
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Riethe All the sudden this seems really fishy to me. I love how people state a bunch of reservations they have... and then say "but I'm still giving you 2 billion isk!". Irrational exuberance indeed. If anyone wants to run a 100+ billion isk scam, now is the time. I'm guessing that is directed at me. Have to say it depends on your perspective doesn't it, and just as you feel yours is valid I'm very comfortable with mine. NC, subject to my earlier mentioned conditions, my offer for 2000 shares still stands. Again, all I wait for is assurance from Ricdic on this forum that assets are held, and carry a liquidable (word?? Too much brandy LOL) value of at least 8bn. Thanks Leo
eosfun Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:43:00 - [42] Originally by: Asymn I retract my previous reserve of 400m shares. Ok, then i will take half of that which is 200M of shares. Meaning there are still 200 more of shares, which i will leave for someone else. That would be a total of 500M worth of shares. EVE'S PORTAL Gamma Testing :D:D:D!!!
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:51:00 - [43] Originally by: eosfun Originally by: Asymn I retract my previous reserve of 400m shares. Ok, then i will take half of that which is 200M of shares. Meaning there are still 200 more of shares, which i will leave for someone else. That would be a total of 500M worth of shares. There was a line of people reserving shares, you can't just come in days after them and declare that if someone leaves said line you immediately get their shares. ___________________________________________ 5% Mining Implants & 5% Manufacturing Implants *From 110M to 150M
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:56:00 - [44] Originally by: eosfun Originally by: Asymn I retract my previous reserve of 400m shares. Ok, then i will take half of that which is 200M of shares. Meaning there are still 200 more of shares, which i will leave for someone else. That would be a total of 500M worth of shares. Wouldn't be yours to claim. There was already a backlog of people wanting shares, see the first page or add em up yourselves if you want. This isn't about the security. I do not question that if this turns into a scam 100% of the money would be returned. I don't invest to get 100% back after a few months. That is a waste of money. With the complete and utter lack of anything resembling a plan I couldn't justify investing in this. Not to mention how bad the OP is at communicating what he is saying. 7% from a person with no credibility and no plan, basically offering a fixed rate loan, is too low for me. Obviously it is not too low to a lot of people and the lack of details/plan is not a concern to others here. This is why I bring up DS's post, "Irrational Exuberance". Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2007.12.26 23:59:00 - [45] That's exactly why I asked for a security to the tune of 110%. The OP wants to run a 2 month project. Now he could have easily gotten an EBANK loan under the same conditions (probably a little higher interest rate). I would be more to the point that a fantastic business plan only goes part of the way to making investors feel safe they will get their money back. Funds held in security by a trusted third party would seem to make people feel far safer that their money is in good hands. Now, NightCrow providing 9b in assets as security shows that he is one of those people who already has a lot of money and is asking for an amount which doesn't exceed the norm for him (one of those people you said are generally safer to invest in). Obviously it can go a few different ways. The OP hasn't used any form of decent business plan but the purchases and reservations have shown he doesn't need too. When we give out an EBANK loan, we either: a) Ask for a ton of different information etc before giving anything or b) Provide a loan with almost zero other information (ie no API keys, no guarantors, no nothing) if it has a decent security level (above 110%) Anyway it all comes down to people's comfort levels. A 110% holding means if this does burn out in 2 months liquidation results in invstors still getting a 5% return per month on their investment plus the principle back. Others have taken the same path. 1) Ambo had stocks held in security and successfully completed his business 2) Cinderbrood had funds held in security but vanished meaning liquidation (with no return) occured 0% return over 2 months is better than 100% loss of capital over 2 months in my opinion. A good business plan hiding a scam results in the 100% loss whilst a security results in the 0% return. I know which I prefer
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.27 00:53:00 - [46] I agree with most of what you said... but even you are showing why I am having issues with this. You claim it is a 2 month IPO... but he specifically said it was not just 2 months in a post in this thread. It seems every time he makes a statement it comes out a bit different. That is just scary from an investors viewpoint. Having 112.5% security is prob good enough for most people, but I don't like supporting someone who has such a poor plan and poor communication skills. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:03:00 - [47] There are very clever ways to make it sound like you're going to use a trustee, gain investments, and not do anything at all. Some people might jump the gun if influenced enough. Especially if this is a business plan based around blueprints. UNLESS Ricdic receives all the investments and purchases the blue prints himself, this guy will hold all the funds at some point in time, thus no security during that phase. Ideally, Night Crow will send ricdic the 9 billion from his pocket, then start accepting investments. From the way it looks, this shouldn't be too difficult. Just hold out until Ricdic gives the confirmation, as obvious as it may sound.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:20:00 - [48] Originally by: Riethe There are very clever ways to make it sound like you're going to use a trustee, gain investments, and not do anything at all. Some people might jump the gun if influenced enough. Especially if this is a business plan based around blueprints. UNLESS Ricdic receives all the investments and purchases the blue prints himself, this guy will hold all the funds at some point in time, thus no security during that phase. Ideally, Night Crow will send ricdic the 9 billion from his pocket, then start accepting investments. From the way it looks, this shouldn't be too difficult. Just hold out until Ricdic gives the confirmation, as obvious as it may sound. You don't understand the plan here. Existing Freighter BPO's are going to be handed to ricdic, then he will use 9b to do something else with it. Really it's just a loan. He is able to offer lower returns in an IPO than a loan from e-bank would cost him. So he is doing an IPO. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:22:00 - [49] Okay so he's selling some freighter BPO's to Ricdic, and Ricdic is paying with other people's money. Gotcha.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Riethe Okay so he's selling some freighter BPO's to Ricdic, and Ricdic is paying with other people's money. Gotcha. Basically. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
eosfun Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: eosfun Originally by: Asymn I retract my previous reserve of 400m shares. Ok, then i will take half of that which is 200M of shares. Meaning there are still 200 more of shares, which i will leave for someone else. That would be a total of 500M worth of shares. Wouldn't be yours to claim. There was already a backlog of people wanting shares, see the first page or add em up yourselves if you want. This isn't about the security. I do not question that if this turns into a scam 100% of the money would be returned. I don't invest to get 100% back after a few months. That is a waste of money. With the complete and utter lack of anything resembling a plan I couldn't justify investing in this. Not to mention how bad the OP is at communicating what he is saying. 7% from a person with no credibility and no plan, basically offering a fixed rate loan, is too low for me. Obviously it is not too low to a lot of people and the lack of details/plan is not a concern to others here. This is why I bring up DS's post, "Irrational Exuberance". Hm, counted wrong or something. But yah, i see that this IPO is STILL 50 shares oversold even when the 400 shares we retracted. EVE'S PORTAL Gamma Testing :D:D:D!!!
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:35:00 - [52] Edited by: EBANK Ricdic on 27/12/2007 01:34:58 5 * ME2 BPO's for security. If using Obelisk then NPC cost is 1.755b. So 8.775b not counting research. With those research levels I would put them closer to 9.3b or so (150m roughly extra per bpo) so security should suffice. edit: I should clarify I haven't recieved them yet, but will advise when I do
Carpii Diem	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Night Crow Business Plans I do have a Business Plan but I'm unwilling to share them so it doesnt give other people ideas All I will say is Everything I do, I do it well But is this not your business plan? Reading the other post I have to say it's slightly alarming to see: "9 Scaming Not sure what to say here except I dont scam I have not got anyone also that can vouch for me either Try It Once Conscience got the better of me end up paid them back and more" Then when scanning through the page again I see a familiar line: "And I Will Hold 6001 Shares So No one can take over corp and I cant paid the Dividends" which if I remember correctly was something that Wylker said he needed to control his corp and many people argued that he didn't. Then the argument led to questioning the vote that was later initiated about what to do with the funds in his corp. I forget what the final out come was of the vote, ( liquidation I believe). Maybe it's just me but it seems a bit familiar....
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:56:00 - [54] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic 5 * ME2 BPO's for security. If using Obelisk then NPC cost is 1.755b. So 8.775b not counting research. With those research levels I would put them closer to 9.3b or so (150m roughly extra per bpo) so security should suffice. Just me, but I wouldnt count the ME values of any Freighter BPO's as anything over their NPC cost atm. Because of the way things go and such, I wouldnt be surprised if the Freighter BPO market ends up like the Covetor BPO market did a few months after HULK invention was introduced. With well researched BPO's selling at or below NPC price, as people liquidated out of projects that werent as profitable due to everyone and their cousin having the same idea. --
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:10:00 - [55] Either way NPC cost = 8.85b. Loan = 8b. This means if selling them at raw npc cost we still have 850m to dividend to people (so it still comes to 110% of loan regardless). If you count the fact that these bpo's have 2 months research on each of them it's highly unlikely that the OP is looking for a way to sell them cheap as he could get far more selling off contract (even if at npc price) So even unresearched we have 110% of the fund secured. When researched if valued around the 150m/bpo mark (which I do feel is correct, most of the bpo copying craze currently circulating are unresearched ones)and puts us closer to 115% security. Anyway, as I said once this is all underway EBANK are happy to handle any buyback of shares at 100% of value, so people can bail out whenever they want.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:17:00 - [56] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Either way NPC cost = 8.85b. Loan = 8b. Yeah I got that point, and was not disputing that the BPO's in question would cover the colateral requirments. I was more objecting to the additional valuation you were placing on freighter BPO in general due to their research, when there is a very distinct chance that the market will soon be flooded with researched BPO's selling at or below NPC price. Similar to many other FOTM BPO's in the past. p.s. get back to saving those callers with Mac's :P --
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:40:00 - [57] There's one thing I don't understand. Quote: Why get get a IPO then? Reason Extra profit for me How does this work? There's two courses of action here which I'm not understanding, unless there's a deal going on behind the scenes to the order of "If I list my corp publicly, for one reason or another, more people will work for me, increasing my profit income",, which kindof implies you'll pay wages and draw moot again. It's an interesting situation if someone would do that without reimbursement. If thats all wrong and running an IPO will make you more profit, here's my curiosity. 1. You run an IPO for 8 billion, and secure the investment with 9 billion in assets. From that 8 billion startup you pay 7% per month. You keep 93% of the profits from the IPO. OR 2. You use your 9 billion to startup, and get 100% of the profits in return. I see no reason to not choose option 2 other than you want to establish some name for yourself, which you've indicated is not your intent. Specifically, it's an IPO for the purpose of you gaining more money. Sorry, but the two just don't add up. Everyone ragged on Nucon for needing to put in as much as your IPO required to secure the fund 100% and saying it wouldnt be a successful way to run a business, yet everyone wants to invest in this. Something's just not right,,, either that or slap me with a cod and tell me I'm being daft. Improve Market Competition!
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs There's one thing I don't understand. Quote: Why get get a IPO then? Reason Extra profit for me How does this work? There's two courses of action here which I'm not understanding, unless there's a deal going on behind the scenes to the order of "If I list my corp publicly, for one reason or another, more people will work for me, increasing my profit income",, which kindof implies you'll pay wages and draw moot again. It's an interesting situation if someone would do that without reimbursement. If thats all wrong and running an IPO will make you more profit, here's my curiosity. 1. You run an IPO for 8 billion, and secure the investment with 9 billion in assets. From that 8 billion startup you pay 7% per month. You keep 93% of the profits from the IPO. OR 2. You use your 9 billion to startup, and get 100% of the profits in return. I see no reason to not choose option 2 other than you want to establish some name for yourself, which you've indicated is not your intent. Specifically, it's an IPO for the purpose of you gaining more money. Sorry, but the two just don't add up. Everyone ragged on Nucon for needing to put in as much as your IPO required to secure the fund 100% and saying it wouldnt be a successful way to run a business, yet everyone wants to invest in this. Something's just not right,,, either that or slap me with a cod and tell me I'm being daft. Because he isn't just handing the BPO's to Ricdic to sit around in a cargo somewhere... he is going to continue to have copies made I am quite sure. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:11:00 - [59] Quote: Because he isn't just handing the BPO's to Ricdic to sit around in a cargo somewhere... he is going to continue to have copies made I am quite sure. Very good play with the cod there good sir. Improve Market Competition!
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:15:00 - [60] Yep Shadarle is correct. I am pretty heavily set up in Capital Production, T2 Production and Research through my various corporations (all my own, all secure) so I simply charge the OP a fee to handle his copies and he can use the security as collateral to funding more cash whilst existing cash is working for him. With Nucon the assets were only to be sitting in a corp hangar not in use, plus he didn't want anything except veldspar and isk. With my (EBANK) security he will basically be able to utilise 17b worth of capital (9b bpo+8b loan) without actually having that much cash. Some of the EBANK existing loans work in this exact same fashion. My ties with research & production as well as various stocks and bonds, ane EBANK (ability to earn interest off secured funds being used as a loan) allow assets in use as securities to be utilised to help with profits (less chance of default) etc. It's basically the same as what BMBE do when you ie buy a T2 bpo. They hold it, you provide them the materials and they produce for you. Works the same with EBANK except we can fill the following categories: * T1 & T2 Production * Research * Copies * ISK In Bank * Shares/Stocks/Bonds (ie use 4,000 FRPB to secure your 3.5b loan) etc. In regards to T2 bpo's however I generally will recommend BMBE over EBANK as they have a far better production chain designed than we do in that regard. I am not sure if they do copies etc.

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