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CCP Failed stability.

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maria stallion Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.27 20:28:00 - [31] I can understand that is takes time for CCP to find a good solution to this problem. They tried several hardware upgrades that improved fleet battle. However the big problem CCP is creating is the constant stream of advertisment on many populair gaming sites. The more people that join eve the bigger fleet fights get. CCP may have to solution to the problem, but at the sametime they are making it worse by the minute. CCP needs to stop the advertisment, look for ways to make fleet battles less attractive and make small gang operations more attractive. I think everybody would want a lagg free fight and see the opponent they are getting shot by.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2007.12.27 20:36:00 - [32] Excuse my ignorance because I know nothing about computers. How about sharding? What if sharding does make fights better and lag free, would that be acceptable? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.27 20:37:00 - [33] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Excuse my ignorance because I know nothing about computers. How about sharding? What if sharding does make fights better and lag free, would that be acceptable? In before epic success of this troll. <3 Jenny - DesuSigs
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.27 21:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Ralara I do not for a second think they make their calculations any longer or harder than necessary. There is a limit to what you can do. O RLY ... Well I look at the Client and see a UI that is really bad, scrolling the LP store window for example on a 2.4GHz Athlon with 8800GTX card is about as slow as Windows on a 286 PC. So personally, I very much doubt that they have optimized stuff as much as possible in the server as well as the client... Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.27 21:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Excuse my ignorance because I know nothing about computers. How about sharding? What if sharding does make fights better and lag free, would that be acceptable? No, to make different instances of the Eve universe would be more than epic fail. It's not Eve. -- My sig taken from this site, so thoroughly explains the people I speak with on the forums.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.27 21:52:00 - [36] I didn't bother reading. It looked like a song. What is it about? Rifters!
Phoebus Athenian Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.27 22:06:00 - [37] /signed SQUARED I was just about to start this very exact thread... The discussion started in Corp channel about the new gfx engine. And the fact that playability of the game has not increased one bit. Basically, I'm having moderate fun in the current fights of 100vs 100 and 200vs200 but... its lagged to fck, to the point that its not .. Wait as we speak lost a battleship to the 'enemy' fleet abusing the fighter lag... brilliant. Only in my opinion thats abusing game mechanics to get you a few extra kills and make the game even more unplayable. Why oh WHY waste so much development time on this new gfx engine, which tbh doesn't really offer anything new to the game... and not on making the game more stable and PLAYABLE. You're advertising large fleet fights, but really-- we're not even past alpha as far as big fleet fights go. Either stop that, make it impossible to have huge fleet fights, OR SUPPORT it, but make up your mind. Empty promises and... bah getting too bitter here... but you get the point. Decision to work on new gfx and not on making the current game playable and current players happy: wrong*. ---
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.27 22:15:00 - [38] Eve has been like this since I have started playing the game. Why would anyone think it would suddenly be fixed? There is no magic code fairy that waves a wand and makes lag disappear. "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S. Thompson.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2007.12.27 22:50:00 - [39] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/12/2007 22:51:27 Angel DeMorphis, why would it be an epic fail if lag could be fixed? I am not familiar with this game yet but most of the online games that I have seen are sharded. An example with Second Life and as far as I know they are also sharded. Second Life has one world with many different regional lands. As it is now, Second Life also has overcrowding problem but they are planning to shard the world into some parallel worlds. You can read more in world sharding. I do not know computer development in real life and if you can understand those slides please explain to me why sharding is bad. Everyone is doing it so it can't be that bad. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:03:00 - [40] This is true. I've been playing since beta 4 and it seems like there's never been a great increase in stability. 100v100 always lags, always has. Wish they'd put more devs on it, TBQH but people have been asking for stability forever. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
KEVENS	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Phoebus Athenian /signed SQUARED I was just about to start this very exact thread... The discussion started in Corp channel about the new gfx engine. And the fact that playability of the game has not increased one bit. Basically, I'm having moderate fun in the current fights of 100vs 100 and 200vs200 but... its lagged to fck, to the point that its not .. Wait as we speak lost a battleship to the 'enemy' fleet abusing the fighter lag... brilliant. Only in my opinion thats abusing game mechanics to get you a few extra kills and make the game even more unplayable. Why oh WHY waste so much development time on this new gfx engine, which tbh doesn't really offer anything new to the game... and not on making the game more stable and PLAYABLE. You're advertising large fleet fights, but really-- we're not even past alpha as far as big fleet fights go. Either stop that, make it impossible to have huge fleet fights, OR SUPPORT it, but make up your mind. Empty promises and... bah getting too bitter here... but you get the point. Decision to work on new gfx and not on making the current game playable and current players happy: wrong*. You make it sound like using fighters is a exploit. Its part of the game, the game should work. Its not who you are fightings fault what they use and how many they bring. its the CCPs fault.
NightKhaos Gallente Seridian Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:14:00 - [42] I think when it comes to this issue, everything that can be done IS being done. To be quite honest, CCP care more about their players than any other MMO game I've seen. I mean they actually listen to our ideas for one thing. They know the stakes. If you can ofter a constructive solution to this, have at it, complaining it only makes them more stressed. And CCP, we players are smart, don't dumb down this technical stuff to us, tell us exactly what is causing the problem, ya never know, maybe one of us can come up with a cost effective solution. But if we don't know, we can't help you any more than you can do anything about this problem. CPU: Intel Core2 T5500 @ 1.66 RAM: 1024 GPU: nVidia GeForce Go 7300 GPU Drivers: 2.1.1 NVIDIA 100.14.19 Sound Card: HDA Intel Sound Card Driver: ALSA Version 1.0.14 Kernel: 2.6.23-gentoo-r3
Phoebus Athenian Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:35:00 - [43] How do you define exploit? Lets work with your definition ;) ---
Locupleto	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:45:00 - [44] You canÆt avoid fleet wars as a mature character unless you leach off established alliances and avoid the wars, or if you remain in empire. Or maybe if you stay a small alliance and just move each time your butt gets kicked. If thatÆs all you can do the game just isnÆt so appealing. A lot of players love this game passionately and this problem is breaking our heart. We need a Dev blog or some official statement acknowledging the problem and a promise this is the top priority. No resource that could be helping with the problem should be working on other items.
KEVENS	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Phoebus Athenian How do you define exploit? Lets work with your definition ;) Cheating is what i think of.
hired goon Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:49:00 - [46] Originally by: NightKhaos I think when it comes to this issue, everything that can be done IS being done. Well I don't know, the OP may have a point in what he says about CCP persuing additions instead of solutions. Take HEAT for example. Who uses heat? And how much more database access and calculations does it add to a huge fleet fight? I think if CCP were to somehow simplify the calculations that have to be done and then transferred back to each player, we'd see an improvement. The extreme idea of this would be to have a button for each fleet commander that says 'TRANSFORM!' which, when pressed, amalgamates each fleet into a HUGE SPACE ROBOT which duels it out with its opponent. This will eliminate lag by reducing each battle from 300+ individually calculated entities, to 2. -omg-
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:58:00 - [47] Edited by: Cadiz on 27/12/2007 23:58:29 Thing is, I'm pretty sure I remember fleet fights of similar scale (100v100 etc.) performing a lot better in '05 and early '06. Yeah, the giant "600 people in local 300v300" stuff always brought things to a screaming halt, but back then I seem to remember being able to do 50v50s to 100v100s with much less lag & trouble than there is now. Is that just me indulging in nostalgia, or...? ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
New ones Caldari Koln united	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:00:00 - [48] CCP claim they wil fix lag :S, but it wil take them about 2-3 years 2-3 years is a freaking loong time, and a lot of pepole wil leave before this happends. What is also dont like is they always brag about "epic battle" The only epic battels in eve now are On the forums They also refuse to give ships back to lag, Even tho they know it's a server side problem,. They are just doing it to keep down the workload.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:12:00 - [49] CCP, please let the graphics artists work on fixing the lag. I'm not certain what will happen, but one way or another it should stop people whining about it for a while. - DesuSigs
Chelone	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:14:00 - [50] Edited by: Chelone on 28/12/2007 00:16:04 OP is correct. Clearly nothing is improving, quite the opposite. We started with flawed code that could barely run 200x200 fleet battles, and needed to be completely overhauled. Instead we added 2x the subscribers and a bunch of new useless add-on features, and now we can't even run half that - not even "barely." How many of you were present for the original "big blade server upgrade"? I was, and I remember everyone being utterly astounded at how small the improvement was, if any. And "they" are still talking about hardware? Eve needs a fundamental code redesign if it ever hopes to run large fleets. The fanboys can continue to bury their heads in the sand, flaming all of the genuinely concerned Eve citizens, and that will work fine until a real competitor to Eve appears. Then they will wish they had participated constructively, instead of helping destroy Eve through a doctrine of apathy and denial.
Hermosa Diosas The-Secret-Service Retribution.	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:22:00 - [51] here here - 100% signed The lag issues have been a problem for years now CCP say they upgrade but it makes no difference. its pretty much cross fingers and hope when in fleet battles. and the lag when jumping in is crazy, you can be dead before you see the next system. But we still put up with it, because what you gonna do? Leave? Well CCP knows for every one that leaves 5 join and i dont think they really care tbh They will never get a whole player base boycotting the game so 'they will do it in their own time' Sad but true
Judas Jones Amarr Black Company	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:28:00 - [52] Stability and Ambulation should be the focus of CCP in 2008, Amarr are not due for there ommph until 2010 afaik
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:33:00 - [53] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 28/12/2007 00:35:33 Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Jonny JoJo Server spends far too long calculating crap like turret falloff, chance of hit and all sorts with that tracking, hit,, damage, sig etc etc formula's. Now you have people runing rings around these broken formulas as missles do no damage to nanoships, turrets cannot track nanoships, turret ships do 0 dps at 0km range due to a 4 year bug with tracking formula etc etc To be honest, just replace that crap with somthing simple. Each turret making a calculation, and then the server updating everything with that calcualtion is hurting the game. Make calcualtions simple - nobody wants complex broken formulas. It isn't as simple as "making the calculations simple". Each ship has certain bonuses, each launcher/turret does, each ammo does, each individual skill / pilot does. Put me in a Kestral and you in a Kestral, we'll have different numbers for our ships. I do not for a second think they make their calculations any longer or harder than necessary. There is a limit to what you can do. Even abreviating stuff: flighttime = FT missile damage = MD ship bonus missile damage = SB etc (and there's a lot more - speed, explosion velocity, skill etc) you still end up with FT x MD x SB x SS x AB x AC x AD etc and so on. There's probably 10-15 variables per firing of each shot. Speed, skills (say there's 5 or 6 - range, speed, refire rate etc), ship bonus, ammo, turret bonus, rig bonus, implant bonus, transversal velocity... you can't just turn that into X = Y and have at it. Thats the problem - Too many calculations. Remember the golden rule of game design - keep it simple. Why is there 10-15 varables for something as simple as shooting a ship? And now we have extra calucations on heat, heat damage to modules etc etc just to add even more calucaitons. pPay a game like Star Wolves 2 or Homeworld 2 or just about any space Game. See how weapons work there. Thats how they should work in eve - just keep everything simple. When some weapons were imbalanced - adding in complex new formula's etc just made everything worse. Now you have the nanoship problem where missiles do no damage, and you have the universal turret calucation exploit, where keeping a turret ship at 0m makes you 100% immune to damage due to a divide by zero in a tracking calculation. Thats just 2 examples where these formulas break. Just make sig radius a damage reduction and that solves everything. Get rid of this turret tracking nonsense althogether and just all weapons hit every shot, but baised on sig resolution vs radius, dictates damage. (So a seiged dread shooting a frig would do almost no damage). Keep simple formulas that are easy to understand. 10 - 15 varables, that are so complex that the human brain cannot calcluate them on the fly, get replaced by 2-3 things, which cuts on formula's considerably, and would massivly improve perormance. So many calculations nested on other calcuations. All of which make performance worse. The great EC-P battle a couple of years ago on OLD hardware was far smoother than just about anything we have on current hardner due to all these nested calcuations. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:57:00 - [54] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Keep simple formulas that are easy to understand. 10 - 15 varables, that are so complex that the human brain cannot calcluate them without pen and paper + lots of time, get replaced by 2-3 things, which cuts on formula's considerably, and would massivly improve perormance. So many calculations nested on other calcuations. All of which make performance worse. The great EC-P battle a couple of years ago on OLD hardware was far smoother than just about anything we have on current hardner due to all these nested calcuations.... WITH the same number of people in battle! Are you a programmer? No I didn't think so. I'm a software engineer, and would like to educate you on a couple of your suggestions ;) Variables are dirt cheap in programming terms, you can have a few thousand if you want. Heat calculations are local to your ship, they are calculated very fast, the things that require a lot of calculations are area of effect weapons. Are you familiar with big O notation? That is you real bottle neck in a game as advanced as EVE. Each subroutine has to be checked for optimal performance and redundant calculations eliminated. Fall off calculations are relatively linear and light on the processor compared to , for example, the new fleet gang bonus calculations. These seem to have some kind of abnormal recursive calculation built in, that induces a nasty delay every time a gang member uncloaks from gate jump, or warps to grid. Also, the ridiculous lack of garbage collection when fighters are launched needs to be looked at. I don't have access to the source code, but looking at performance, it would seem that fighter drones create a new instance every time they change target or have any instruction. And as for keeping the weapons to be hit box only...I totally disagree. What CCP have tried to do is very innovative. They just need to stop adding extra crap, and optimise their existing code.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:02:00 - [55] Hey, which Jenny are we on currently? This the 3rd? Originally by: Tarminic Okay, that's it. You are on the KOS list, and you better pray that I don't have access to a locater agent.
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:03:00 - [56] Originally by: Jonny JoJo pPay a game like Star Wolves 2 or Homeworld 2 or just about any space Game. See how weapons work there. Thats how they should work in eve - just keep everything simple. The only way to do that is by removing skills, modules, the effect of speed and signature radius. Without that weapons in EVE work the same way they do in Hw2. But it's not EVE anymore, is it? _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Eralus	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:09:00 - [57] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Thats the problem - Too many calculations. Actually, that's not the problem. We have chips that do 2 GIGAhertz and up. That's 2,000,000,000 calculations per second. With 200 ships in a system, that still lets you do 20,000,000 per ship per second. Lopping off 20 calculations on a turret firing is going to make no difference at all. Until very recently, I worked for SGI (Silicon Graphics Inc) designing massive computers. The thing that slows these computers down isn't usually the processor - it's moving the data around. And if you have not programmed what you are doing smartly, that can phenomonally exagerate your data moving problem. The first problem with EVE is that everybody in the same system ends up on the same server, AND nearly everything they do ends up on that server too. In a station in Jita? Well, the Jita server ends up processing your market requests. Why? That's stupid. Things CCP needs to change to improve performance: 1) Separate all combat-tasks out from non-combat tasks, and put each on separate servers. So all of the module activiation, shooting, repping, scanning, etc, goes on one server, and all the chat, market, voice, etc goes on another one. 2) Allocate people to servers based on grid, not system. So if 100 ships are in one grid, and 100 ships are in another grid, put them on two separate servers. That's a good start. #2 shouldn't even be hard - just treat warping the same way gate jumping is treated. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
WHeisenberg	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:11:00 - [58] I remember when Yulai was the center of the universe and the battlefield that it became because of it. You think it's bad now? Many of us can remember warping into a fleet battle and not even seeing any other ships appear til we were already in pods. Or try jumping a gate and before the backdrop even loads up you're smartbombed and podded. Lag is lag. There isn't an infinite amount of bandwidth rolling across the servers, and the more people that use it, the more lag we'll get. I gave up on big fleet battles long ago - no sense in it any more. The main factor of who is going to win is who lags the least, so skills & setups dont even enter into it any more. Stick to PvE or find a non-combat job in Empire if you want a game where lag doesn't become its own 'player' in the game. Just my humble opinion of course, WHeis
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:16:00 - [59] Originally by: MotherMoon you increase the number of sbhips that can fight without lag to 600 on 600 then players will bring 800 on 800 and it will lag again. Sorry, Again. I dont think you can comment on CCP or have objectionable discussions regarding them. You will defend them at all costs, therefore having nothing constructive to add. _________________________________
Krychton Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:16:00 - [60] Lag sucks for everyone, and how many years has it been like this? CCP may never have solution for this problem. When I first started playing EVE couple years back, I remembered getting excited about massive fleet battles. Hundreds of ships colliding in a massive epic slug fest. I'm pretty sure at one point in time every EVE player felt that excitement, but also the disappointment of seeing your ship destroyed in lag. I don't mind losing a ship to a great fight, but it bugs the hell out of me when you're forced to watch your hard work get sucked down the drain just because the game isn't designed to handle it. Personally I try to stay away from CCP's expansion pack trailers/movies, because every time I see them advertise fleet engagements as a flawless wonder, it just ****es me off. I love this game,I'll probably always play it. Guess I'm just a sucker CCP takes advantage of. =/ ---- \|Omerta Syndicate\|

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