EVE Search - Hictors vs. HAC's

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Hictors vs. HAC's

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Kharadran Sullath Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:52:00 - [1] First of all, the obligatory "this-is-not-a-whine" points. 1. I have not been killed by or even come face to face with a Hictor. 2. I have done no real number crunching, only a brief discussion with another pilot after quickly viewing the hictor stats. 3. This thread is more of a question than anything else. 4. This thread is not about warp scramming. Now, on to business. When talking to my friend, he said that he was able to get a much better tank with his hictor than with his HAC. Okay I said, that's how it should be as hictors will be among the first to be primaried in any fight. But, then he also said that his dps was nearly as great in his hictor as it was with his HAC. That is what I find odd. The "intended role" of hictors is supposed to be scramming and surviving during a gang/fleet fight, not directly killing things as well (if I'm not completely mistaken). This would theoretically mean that a lone hictor could kill a lone HAC, as the former has a greater tank, similar other stats and nearly equal dps. So my question is, are HAC's now obsolete? Who would pick a HAC over a hictor when the latter can scram/slow down anything/everything and deal almost the same damage? Discuss. ------ Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull** and troll. If you are deaf**, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:55:00 - [2] Even though I don't fly either ships, looking at the stats leads me to believe HACs are obsolete. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:56:00 - [3] Firstly, ill talk about the Cerb compared to the Hactor counterpart - The Onyx. The onyx as you can see is a missile boat...5 launchers, range bonus. Same as the cerb. What it lacks is the RoF and Damage bonus. However, the tank does indeed far succeed any caldari hac tank. Its really that simple. The Hictors/Hactors have similar bonuses, but no where near the same dps. If your friend does actually have the same dps, then hes using light weapons on both his ships, and not getting bonuses from either. Simple as that.
Kharadran Sullath Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:59:00 - [4] I guess that number crunching is inevitable... BRB EFT. ------ Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull** and troll. If you are deaf**, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:03:00 - [5] HACs value has always been their speed otherwise BCs would have made them obsolete.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:04:00 - [6] To extend on my previous post, let's compare the Deimos to the Phobos. On ship bonuses level, you can clearly see the Phobos lacks one of the damage modifiers, which is replaced with disruption field range. It also loses the MWD cap bonus to increased resistances. Considering both ships have the same high-slot layout, the Deimos is clearly a better choice for raw DPS, as it does 25% more damage, assuming you got HACs V trained. But what else does the Phobos do that the Deimos doesn't? Quite a bit of stuff. - Able to deploy disruption sphere - Able to use infinite-strength warp disruptors - Has much higher resistances - Is 10 m/s faster - Has more CPU - Has more Powergrid - Has an extra medium slot Now tell me, isn't the 25% damage worth sacrificing for these bonuses? Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
General Petraeus Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:04:00 - [7] Most if not all the HACs do more damage but have less tank.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:12:00 - [8] This is because some particular HACs really do pretty crappy damage (at least compared to some other HACs) and have weak tank i.e. cerberus and eagle for example. However their intended role isn't tanking or dealing lots of dps. TBH I would never change my onyx to cerb or eagle but then their roles are completely different so it doesn't make those ships obsolete. I'd only ask if long range missile boat or sniper HAC are really that useful though. In this case (caldari ships) "problem" is that most of caldari boats are at their best in large gangs or fleets and onyx fortunately can also fit this scram on high slot so it can actually tank and tackle which is extraordinary for a caldari ship. What comes to heavy interdictors in general, dps it's not that great compared to other ships or even HACs generally. Major difference is in setups, usually people just nano all hacs but heavy interdictors are set up to tank so when it comes to 1 vs 1 nanoed hac can't put out enough damage and tank to beat hictor do I'd say it's draw in most cases, either one gets bored and runs or gets help. imo
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:22:00 - [9] Hacs are meant to do some damage even if some don't. Hictors are meant to be a supertank more than anything else. An uber tackler. Amarr Laser Cat Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Tamia Clant To extend on my previous post, let's compare the Deimos to the Phobos. On ship bonuses level, you can clearly see the Phobos lacks one of the damage modifiers, which is replaced with disruption field range. It also loses the MWD cap bonus to increased resistances. Considering both ships have the same high-slot layout, the Deimos is clearly a better choice for raw DPS, as it does 25% more damage, assuming you got HACs V trained. But what else does the Phobos do that the Deimos doesn't? Quite a bit of stuff. - Able to deploy disruption sphere - Able to use infinite-strength warp disruptors - Has much higher resistances - Is 10 m/s faster - Has more CPU - Has more Powergrid - Has an extra medium slot Now tell me, isn't the 25% damage worth sacrificing for these bonuses? Firstly, yes those are the advantages. But the simple and obvious disadvantage is that 25% is ALOT of extra DPS. That WILL make the difference between breaking and not breaking an opponents tank. Not only that, but some players will enjoy being the ganker, rather than tanker. Theyre different ships, and with different roles. If you use one for the other, then you're doing something wrong imo. However, i cant stop you ^^.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:25:00 - [11] Generally Hictors stand still and take a beating, so they tank it. HACs run around in roaming gangs at high speeds and deal nice damage in a short period of time, until things get hot and then they scedaddle. I'm not sure Hictors can scedaddle as much, at least if they're doing their intended role. --- Join BH-DL Skills
Kharadran Sullath Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:34:00 - [12] Yes, it's true that hictors lack a drone bay, but... Note: Skills were set to "All level V" and all ships had the same amount and type of turrets fitted during all comparisons (when it was possible). Drones were not included as I couldn't be arsed. When comparing the Broadsword with the Vaga and Muninn, the Vaga had exactly the same dps as the Broadsword, and the Muninn only had 30 more dps (5x t2 220 vulcan autos). For some reason I got the same dps on both the phobos and the deimos when comparing the gallente ships. I fail at using EFT. However, the base dps on 5x t2 heavy neutron blasters with no skills is 120, which means that the difference here should be close to 30 dps as well. The Ishtar beat the phobos by a fraction with 5x t2 hammerheads (yay contradiction). The Devoter had the same dps as the Sacrilege, and only 22 dps less than that of the Zealot. As I fail at using EFT, Caldari ships won't be included as I get the same dps on missile launchers no matter what ship I use. Now, is the difference in dps enough, even with drones, for a person to choose a HAC over a hictor? Would you? Bear in mind that only the vaga has significantly more speed than any hictor. ------ Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull** and troll. If you are deaf**, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Kharadran Sullath Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:49:00 - [13] Well? ------ Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull** and troll. If you are deaf**, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Yes, it's true that hictors lack a drone bay, but... Note: Skills were set to "All level V" and all ships had the same amount and type of turrets fitted during all comparisons (when it was possible). Drones were not included as I couldn't be arsed. When comparing the Broadsword with the Vaga and Muninn, the Vaga had exactly the same dps as the Broadsword, and the Muninn only had 30 more dps (5x t2 220 vulcan autos). For some reason I got the same dps on both the phobos and the deimos when comparing the gallente ships. I fail at using EFT. However, the base dps on 5x t2 heavy neutron blasters with no skills is 120, which means that the difference here should be close to 30 dps as well. The Ishtar beat the phobos by a fraction with 5x t2 hammerheads (yay contradiction). The Devoter had the same dps as the Sacrilege, and only 22 dps less than that of the Zealot. As I fail at using EFT, Caldari ships won't be included as I get the same dps on missile launchers no matter what ship I use. Now, is the difference in dps enough, even with drones, for a person to choose a HAC over a hictor? Would you? Bear in mind that only the vaga has significantly more speed than any hictor. You've been using base damage etc, which imo isnt an accurate representation. A deimos pilot will fit for speed and damage. A phobos pilot will fit for tank. A broadsword pilot will fit for a passive shield tank. A munnin will fit gank, and a vaga will fit speed. An onyx will fit for passive tank, and a cerb/eagle will fit for dps. And the zealot/sac will fit for dps/speed/tank, whilst the devoter will be full tank. Whilst EFT may tell you the numbers on paper, they equal near enough nothing ingame. The ships uses, the pilots who use them, and their actual uses are far more influential to the discussion than numbers. Take the Deimos. Its tank isnt that great. It relys on speed and its gank factor to nullify the enemy before it can get the upperhand. Any cruiser melts at its blasters, and most hacs go down fast. However, the Phobos doesnt. It relys on its tank. Its speed is crap, due to the negative effects of the bubble (when in use), and if you arent using the bubble, then you're obviously using it wrong. Then theres the drones. Regardless of EFT prowess, drones make up a good amount of dps if skilled well. And dont forget, whilst the phobos may have a higher base speed, its low slots will be filled with tanking mods. Thats its role near enough. A Deimos will fit speed mods. As i once learned...Data without knowledge is meaningless.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Waxau Firstly, yes those are the advantages. But the simple and obvious disadvantage is that 25% is ALOT of extra DPS. That WILL make the difference between breaking and not breaking an opponents tank. Not only that, but some players will enjoy being the ganker, rather than tanker. Theyre different ships, and with different roles. If you use one for the other, then you're doing something wrong imo. However, i cant stop you ^^. I do agree that the HACs have much better DPS, and that HACtors have the better tank. Gank versus tank, like you say. And I'd be fine with that if that were the HACtors advantage. But let's face it, people don't fly HACtors for the tank, they do it for the warp disruption! We're talking about ships that are not only capable of warp scrambling everyone in a sphere, they can also hold down a single target regardless of its warp core strength. This is a non-consensual PVP game, warp scrambling is the only thing granting you a kill on 90% of situations. Your DPS is pretty much irrelevant if you can't keep your target from running away. What is 25% extra damage compared to the ability that HACtors provide? Flying a HACtor is much more useful than a HAC not only to yourself, but to your whole gang. Take normal interdictors for example. Their ability to create warp disruption spheres is offset by their paper-thin tank, and due to their (recently nerfed) lack of speed, setting up a bubble usually means the ship's death. Now, you may argue that HACtors can't get their tanks nerfed, as they rely on them to survive, since they aren't throw-away ships like dictors are. And I agree with you there! The tanks are really an essential component for a HACtor. HOWEVER, the damage is not! The warp disruption and tanking abilities of the HACtor should be offset by a lack of damage, because as it stands there is next to no reason to skip the HACtors usefulness for a bit of extra DPS on a HAC. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Well? Prices I guess ? A solo t1 cruiser can't pnw solo HACs because of their very nature and cheapness. Same for HIC ? Now is it the end of HACs, I don't think so. Ppl trained them and hese are lovely (and affordable) ships. For about the same price when you could have a command ship, what do you pick ? 2isk
Darina Rea Naqam	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:00:00 - [17] Edited by: Darina Rea on 30/12/2007 02:01:19 Zaelot - 3 heatsinks - 4 heavy pulses : 398 DPS Sacriledge - 3 ballistic control system - 5 heavy assault launchers (one optional laser too?) : 430 DPS Devoter - 3 heatsinks - 4 heavy pulses : 310 DPS If you fit the Sacriledge with lasers you end up with about the same DPS as the Devoter, because you're not using it's bonuses. The Devoter can have a much much better tank then the other 2. I can only assume that the same goes for every HAC/HIC comparison. If you want damage -> HAC If you want bubbling -> HIC Use both _________ Time is on our side.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:01:00 - [18] Edited by: Waxau on 30/12/2007 02:02:36 <Reffering to Tamia Clant's post> Fair enough, however from where im sitting (Onyx)...i have zero advantages over any caldari hacs. The Cerb has the same range as me, yet faster RoF, and a damage bonus. Plus the ability to fit damage mods...Far surpasses me. And i know many who enjoy flying a cerb over an onyx. Whether its asthetics, or just overall cost/usage. The onyx is a tank, that bubbles. Simple as that. Phobos, Broadsword, Devoter - I dont fly them, so i cant make a full evaluation, however as shown in my previous post....They have disadvantages aswell as benifits. The other point, is that dictors take good branch off any average training to get to. I mean..graviton physics? Wtf? Not all will take the time, or even deem it worthwhile to train such an offshoot, just to get that little bit extra advantage, which imo, doesnt exist.
Kharadran Sullath Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:03:00 - [19] I can clearly see your point Waxau, but the question still stands, whether or not people will frequently choose hictors when they earlier would've brought out their HAC's. But I guess only time can truly tell that. ------ Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull** and troll. If you are deaf**, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Well? Prices I guess ? A solo t1 cruiser can't pnw solo HACs because of their very nature and cheapness. Same for HIC ? Now is it the end of HACs, I don't think so. Ppl trained them and hese are lovely (and affordable) ships. For about the same price when you could have a command ship, what do you pick ? Personally, i cant see Hacs being replaced. Theyre a different breed of ship. Its like comparing a ceptor to an AF. And yeah yeah, AF arent used much. But they do have a damn good use for dps on a frig. The exact same as HACs.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Edited by: Kharadran Sullath on 30/12/2007 02:05:48 I can clearly see your point Waxau, but the question still stands, whether or not people will frequently choose hictors when they earlier would've brought out their HAC's. But I guess only time can truly tell that. Edit: From my market comparisons, which I pray aren't completely erroneous, the prices of hictors and HAC's are about the same. Agreed - Fact is, we can research all we like, but when i first saw Hactors, i thought the onyx would be a good npcer. Dont laugh, i was a nub. But having tried it out of boredom, i can tell you, it sucks. Cerb is great at npcing....onyx sucks. I believe the other hactors will have the same issue, in other areas of eve (pvp mainly). But yeah - Only time will tell, but lets hope folks actually look closer into it, rather than just taking their first glance opinion.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Yes, it's true that hictors lack a drone bay, but... Note: Skills were set to "All level V" and all ships had the same amount and type of turrets fitted during all comparisons (when it was possible). Drones were not included as I couldn't be arsed. When comparing the Broadsword with the Vaga and Muninn, the Vaga had exactly the same dps as the Broadsword, and the Muninn only had 30 more dps (5x t2 220 vulcan autos). For some reason I got the same dps on both the phobos and the deimos when comparing the gallente ships. I fail at using EFT. However, the base dps on 5x t2 heavy neutron blasters with no skills is 120, which means that the difference here should be close to 30 dps as well. The Ishtar beat the phobos by a fraction with 5x t2 hammerheads (yay contradiction). The Devoter had the same dps as the Sacrilege, and only 22 dps less than that of the Zealot. As I fail at using EFT, Caldari ships won't be included as I get the same dps on missile launchers no matter what ship I use. Now, is the difference in dps enough, even with drones, for a person to choose a HAC over a hictor? Would you? Bear in mind that only the vaga has significantly more speed than any hictor. using my skills and the highest grade weapons, 3 dmg mods, CN AM and no drones, a phobos does the same damage as a droneless thorax wich is 479dps. considering that the same fit in a deimos will do nearly 100dps more AND it's a viable setup, and it can use the mwd for no penalty, and it has the thorax' drone bay, the deimos is a more viable dps machine than the phobos. the broadsword, with the same skills, and using the same type of setup (largest guns + 3 dmg mods and RF EMP) will do the same exact damage as the rupture (361dps) sans drones. the muninn using the same setup will do 90dps more. however we must take into consideration that muninn is more of an arty boat and the broadsword is an AC boat. The devoter with HPL's, 3 HS amarr MF will do 328dps, the same as the maller will do with the same setup (HPL's + HS, however the maller can fit more lasers). HOWEVER, it will do a bit more damage if you train HIC to lvl5. however it's a diference of just 22dps. same goes to the onyx, if you compare to the carcal. in the end the HIC's are as just good damage platforms as droneless high-tier cruisers, in the order of the 400-200 dps, when compared with the HAC's from the relatively same tier, that can go over the 500dps, using the same setups. --- planetary interaction idea!
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:10:00 - [23] Grimpak wins again
Kharadran Sullath Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:17:00 - [24] Originally by: Waxau Grimpak wins again Agreed, but... Let's say we have a Phobos facing of vs. a Deimos in lowsec. Would it be largely possible for the phobos to outlast its opponent whilst breaking its tank? Or is the solopwnmobile-level of HAC's > hactors/hictors? ------ Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull** and troll. If you are deaf**, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Originally by: Waxau Grimpak wins again Agreed, but... Let's say we have a Phobos facing of vs. a Deimos in lowsec. Would it be largely possible for the phobos to outlast its opponent whilst breaking its tank? Or is the solopwnmobile-level of HAC's > hactors/hictors? Doubt a Deimos could break a Phobo's tank. And doubt the Phobos could lay any form of dps on the Deimos. So it would be very much so like a capital vs capital 1v1 battle....pointless. IF the Deimos did lose, it could just mwd away from the Phobos, due to the speed restrictions and such...and the Deimos could easily tank a Phobos tbh...as such - It could just stick a point and web on the phobos, and wait for friendlies. But 1v1, would certainly be a draw. Depending on setup
ShadowAgony Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.30 03:20:00 - [26] Hactors
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.30 03:32:00 - [27] My biggest issue with the Onyx is getting it to be cap stable while passive tanking it to tank sentries. If you warp through two systems that are 70+au gate to gate... you're gonna be stuck sitting there with your thumb in a dark place for a while waiting for your cap to recharge. Never have that issue with a HAC, and can definitely get more DPS out of either an Eagle or Cerb (hell.. I've setup a 500dps plate thorax before ) ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:09:00 - [28] Originally by: techzer0 My biggest issue with the Onyx is getting it to be cap stable while passive tanking it to tank sentries. If you warp through two systems that are 70+au gate to gate... you're gonna be stuck sitting there with your thumb in a dark place for a while waiting for your cap to recharge. Never have that issue with a HAC, and can definitely get more DPS out of either an Eagle or Cerb (hell.. I've setup a 500dps plate thorax before ) Ive made a few setups for an Onyx (Have a search for them. They may help ya). Thing with gate camping, is you PLAN on not moving. Therefore, being cap stable with the focused script (low sec) and bubble (0.0 obviously) is your only concern. At that point, id suggest you lose some of the tank. My tank atm has base recharge give or take. But it has its lowest resist as 82% (EM), and follow on as 86%, 90%, 93%. With 18k shields, i cant permatank, but took a domi a good number of minutes to get me to 80%. After that, i just got bored and docked ^^
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:35:00 - [29] It seems HICs are geared for tanking and HACs for damage.. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.

Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.