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Radical Market Idea - Helps Jita and More

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Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2007.12.31 01:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Remko Marr on 31/12/2007 01:16:01 We all know about Jita, and we all know something must be done about it. Thus I've decided to take a shot at solving what must be one of EVE's most prominent problems, meanwhile improving the market system a bit. First, let's look at a real life example. Say you want to rent a store to start your business. You have two choices. There's a store for rent that's primely positioned by a major highway, close to the suburbs, and easily acessable from downtown. Then there's a store in a quieter area, not bad but not really good either. Obviously, you want the first one more. However, do you expect the rent to be the same on both? Of course not! Because it's better property, it's going to cost more to get. The other one might not get you as much business, but it will be much cheaper, and possibly a better choice for your newly started business. Now, let's look at EVE. We have Jita, the primely positioned space where everyone is at, and we have...well, everywhere else. Everyone wants to go to Jita to sell their stuff. Why? Because there's no deterrant, isk-wise. There have been multiple suggestions for this deterrant, such as paying based on the time you're in Jita, or having to pay outrageously more for stuff there, but think about it. In real life, would you have to pay more for things because they're closer to the highway? NO. Would you have to pay based on how much time you spend at the store? Possibly, but I don't believe that's the answer. The problem, as I see it, is that there's no price difference between selling in Jita and everywhere else. The answer? Make one. Now, currently we have a system in which you must pay a certain amount of your sale in broker's fees and such, which can be lowered by skills. But really, for the average person selling something, how much of a dent does that really make? Virtually none. The only time that could have any real effect is if you're selling something that's extremely expensive, like a capital ship or a rare control tower, etc. Why is this even here? SO. My proposal is that all broker fees and such should be done away with (for selling; I suppose they could stay for buying). Instead, as a seller, you will pay a fee based on how many items are already being sold at that station. This could be anything that's reasonable, but let's say here that it's .01 isk/item being sold. This is a flat fee that you must pay no matter what you're selling or how much. So, let's say you're out in a relatively remote area (the quiet real estate) where only 10,000 items are being sold in your desired station. You're going to pay a tax of 100 isk on your sell order. Not much at all, but then again you probably won't get as many looks at your item(s). Now let's say you're selling in Jita, where millions and millions of other items are being sold. You're likely going to pay 1 mil+ isk for your sale. This should be more than enough to encourage small-time sellers to spread out. Once the sell orders go down, the tax will also go down, until eventually a happy medium will be reached. Jita will likely still be a major hub, but not to the point where people are waiting for 15 minutes trying to jump. Now, let's take it beyond Jita. Let's say that each entity that owns part of space has a tax unique to them. For instance, while Caldari tax may be .01/item, maybe in Amarr space it's .014/item. Not a huge difference, but enough to distinguish one empire from another. What about corporations and alliances that own 0.0 space? They get to set their own tax. This tax will always go straight to their collective wallet (in the case of alliances, either make an alliance wallet or distribute it evenly among the corp wallets). However, a higher tax means that while they'll make more money, there will be a higher deterrant from selling in their space, which could drive people out. Thus the difference between alliances spaces is not only military, but economic as well. So, is this a good idea or crap?
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.02 01:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Remko Marr on 02/01/2008 01:39:59 Thoughts on this, anyone?
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.01.02 01:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Remko Marr We all know about Jita, and we all know something must be done about it. I disagree. It's self-regulating; many people who would normally go to Jita avoid it because it is so laggy. That's why we don't have two thousand people trying to get to Jita; we have about 600 to 900, because that's how many people the system can take while still being tolerable. The issue is not that large-scale industrialists and traders are putting up hundreds of sell orders; the problem is the little guy. The little guy who comes in and picks up a few modules for his new rig is what's causing Jita to lag, because while at any given time there might be three freighters at the Jita IV - Moon 4 undock, there are twenty Badgers, five Ravens, ten Ishtars, and forty Kestrels. The industrialists who actually use Jita as a hub are not contributing even a fraction of the lag that the little guy is. So instead of trying to crush the industrialists, let's find some way to make the little guy get out. There are plenty of places around Jita to buy and sell in, and there are plenty of traders constantly moving goods out. If small buyers move outside of Jita, the goods at low prices will follow as more traders jump onto the export bandwagon. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC] Starbase Fuel Calculator
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.02 02:51:00 - [4] Edited by: Remko Marr on 02/01/2008 02:51:14 The fee which I'm proposing is the same no matter what you're selling. If you're selling one t1 railgun, it's the same as if you were selling a freighter. Thus, it'll have a much, much smaller effect on large-scale industrial operations than it will on the little guy who, as you say, comes in and picks up a few modules for his new rig. The large scale operations can afford the fee, wheras the casual player in Jita probably can't. This does of course mean that the large scale operations will stay in Jita, but like you said, they aren't the ones causing lag.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.01.02 03:00:00 - [5] Again, I don't think the sellers are the problem, no matter how big you are. It's the small-scale buyers who are flooding local and causing the lag. Small-scale or large-scale producers alike don't make up nearly as much population as the small-scale buyers. I don't mean to trash your idea or anything, as I don't have any better suggestion myself; but I am trying to provoke some discussion about what the real issue is. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC] Starbase Fuel Calculator
Redd Lenses Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.02 03:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Redd Lenses on 02/01/2008 03:33:30 How about a floating value-added sales tax based on the total amount of isk passing through a system per day? ------------- Remember: This is an underwater submarine game, not a galactic space game.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.01.02 03:58:00 - [7] Again, it doesn't address the issue. That taxes sellers, not buyers. So, if we wanted to go down this road, we could implement a buying tax based on the traffic in a system; but that still affects heavy industrialists, since industrialists also buy a lot in Jita, and generally more than the little guy does. (I know I personally buy billions worth of materials at a time, and I consider myself pretty small-scale.) Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC] Starbase Fuel Calculator
Redd Lenses Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.02 04:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Redd Lenses on 02/01/2008 04:08:58 Whups, didnt read full post, I'll fix response ------------- Remember: This is an underwater submarine game, not a galactic space game.
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.02 04:25:00 - [9] Edited by: Remko Marr on 02/01/2008 04:30:09 Hmm, you make an interesting point. However, if the sellers spread out over surrounding systems, don't you think the buyers will follow them? Yes, it will hurt sellers a bit, but only over the short term, since the buyers will eventually catch up to them. The buyer tax on modules is also an interesting idea, but I have a feeling it would be unlikely to be used. I would imagine that if CCP is going to make any changes to the market, they will affect the ENTIRE market, not just selected products.
Redd Lenses Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.02 04:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Redd Lenses on 02/01/2008 04:30:30 geez, I keep posting before finishing my thoughts off ------------- Remember: This is an underwater submarine game, not a galactic space game.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.01.02 04:33:00 - [11] I still think it's not something worth worrying too much about. I go to Jita all the time. I don't stay there, but I make visits because my industry demands it. I get my job done just fine. Sure, occasionally it's a little laggy, but it really isn't THAT bad. If it really gets THAT bad, people will naturally move away. I would much rather deal with a little bit of lag (and yes, that's all it really is) than the consequences of way too much whining. And for those of you who fight in Jita? Well you're just dumb. Plain and simple. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC] Starbase Fuel Calculator
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.02 04:35:00 - [12] Well, there is the possibility that a new trade hub will form, but that seems like a somewhat less likely event. If the systems surrounding Jita become overcrowded, won't the market simply continue to spread? I would imagine that if this idea were implemented that the market would simply diffuse until the tax is at a comfortable level. Forming a new trade hub won't do any good, except if a surrounding region has a MUCH lower tax. And I would imagine CCP wouldn't let that happen.
Ellaine TashMurkon CBC Interstellar The Unseen Company	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:28:00 - [13] CCP alreday has idea to solve this and it is in queue to be implemented afaik - its constelation range delivery. They little buyer will avoid lag by sitting in Preimeter or Urlen, buying 5 modules and ordering NPC courier (Interbus) delivery from Jita.
Kransthow AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon CCP alreday has idea to solve this and it is in queue to be implemented afaik - its constelation range delivery. They little buyer will avoid lag by sitting in Preimeter or Urlen, buying 5 modules and ordering NPC courier (Interbus) delivery from Jita. And then jita will be full of 400 resellers instead of 400 resellers and 100 shoppers
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.02 14:19:00 - [15] I try to avoid jita, but for quite rare items in contracts, the items are often in jita (when there are 3 on the contracts in empire and you buy the three, there are always some in jita in the pack). What I noticed is just that : I accepted my first contract while in perimeter and it worked perfectly well (fast) when searching the contract. I went to jita, found I forgot another item contract and had to accept it. I could never get the contract list for this type of items. I had to get out of jita to find and accept the contract, the go pick up the item in 4-4... Maybe the contract system and market has limited ressources assigned to a single system (or the node was very slow... anyway, two hours later, it was stuck), so spreading in nearby systems may help? If a tax forced people to spread on all the systems nearby to jita, I guess the lag would be highly reduced, at list divided by the number of systems the traders would settle in. The tax would be defined at the time the seller places the sell order based on the previous week activity, then, the seller knows the tax and there is no surprise in the tax, if it is too high, the seller can just go to an adjacent system. The other option which is the interbus delivery is very interesting, delivery cost would be by volume or total cost, whichever it is, many transactions could be accepted from a certain distance and buyers and sellers would spread (a seller knowing the delivery cost could sell a bit lower from another system in range of interbus for all the systems connected to jita, or even at same price if the cost is low enough). Self regulation by people getting stuck just sucks. Even a low tax would push items with low profit out of jita, changing it to a luxury market with more common items in the suburbs. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Ellaine TashMurkon CBC Interstellar The Unseen Company	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Kransthow Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon CCP alreday has idea to solve this and it is in queue to be implemented afaik - its constelation range delivery. They little buyer will avoid lag by sitting in Preimeter or Urlen, buying 5 modules and ordering NPC courier (Interbus) delivery from Jita. And then jita will be full of 400 resellers instead of 400 resellers and 100 shoppers I guess there is rather 200 resellers and 400 shoppers but it doesn't really matter - You can easily be a reseller sitting in a system 2 jumps away, with no lag, using trade skills for remote order updates. I guess all traders who like to resell stuff in Jita and are not masochists do so.
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:43:00 - [17] The only thing I'm afraid of with CCP's idea is that once it becomes easier to buy from Jita, it'll become all the more attractive to sellers and more people will flock there to sell stuff.
DasNara Aethelwulf Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.01.03 03:56:00 - [18] The tax idea is great, in fact the factions should be able to just that and the 0.0 guys SHOULD be able to set the tax rate...so is the npc UPS thing... but I dont think the tax is going to solve the problem. Look at New York City. The taxes are through the roof and still everyone goes there. The new trading hub is created when there is a deband for it. And I mean like, people in the 0.0 only trading in loq sec systems...that's how a new trade hub will occur. even then, Jita will remain the NYC of the game My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916
DasNara Aethelwulf Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.01.03 03:58:00 - [19] Oops, that was *low sec, not loq sec My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.05 16:46:00 - [20] Jita will most likely always be a major trade hub of the game. The point of this idea is just to make it LESS of one and force those that aren't rich to spread out. Once they do so, the tax will come back down until an equilibrium is reached. But of course, old habits die hard and there will most likely always be a large amount of people in Jita. Hopefully just not so many as to cause the problems we're having now.
DasNara Aethelwulf Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.01.06 21:15:00 - [21] Your absolutely right. The tax would drive people to other places. I guess I did not understand right, but you are right that with the tax people will move their operations and Jita will always be the place to go for the hard to find stuff. My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2008.01.06 22:42:00 - [22] Are we still able to run Missions in Jita? If so, can we relocate the Agents to non Jita systems? Also, filter out Jita in all missions in anyway possible, even as a waypoint. Just a thought.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 00:03:00 - [23] Remove warp to 0 and/or install permanent bubbles around the Jita gates and we'll see the system clear up a bit. No I'm not kidding. Warp to 0 has made the universe alot smaller (so ppl go to Jita instead of selling locally). All attempts to try and "fix" Jita is like fighting the symptoms rather than the actual disease (no monetary loss in hauling over huge distances). Ok, removing warp to 0 will only have ppl using bookmarks again so unless deadspaces/bubbles are "installed" around the empire gates there won't be much of a change really. Other symptom fighting suggestions that have been laid out here before are along the lines of raising the dockingfees (per ship class/size) or raising the sellers tax to be in-line with the total net worth of the system market (greedy caldari state officials perhaps?). To adress the OP. Raising the sellers tax will not only hurt the sellers (wich you claim as I understand it). The sellers will increase prices to make up for the lost isk meaning that the same equipment will be available for less ISK elswhere (wich according to me is a good thing). One should be very careful to tamper "game mechanic wise" with the in-game echonomical system by using unorthodox "laws" if you will(compared to real world regulatory methods of control). Your idea of different taxes for different items in different NPC spaces are GREAT. Amarr ships and modules should be taxed less in amarr space than in Caldari controlled space. The only problem with this is that we'll probably see a surge in contracts instead (wich might be both good and bad). One additional method of market-control could be more offices. You wouldn't be able to sell anything on the market without having an office at the station in question (ISK sink anyone?). And an office in Jita should be like getting an office on Madison Square (price wise), more offices would have to be made available though. Small time traders could still sell stuff at a "comodity market" (loose use of the term) and pay an additional fee per item sold compared to corporations owning an office (making it difficult for alt corps and small time investors to make huge sales and forcing them to move elsewhere). Afterall you don't private persons standing around trying to sell his car outside a Ford store. There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Remko Marr Caldari First And Only	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:55:00 - [24] Mission idea is interesting, but it wouldn't really be addressing the real problem. While warp bubbles around gates would probably help Jita, it would be through an indirect means, and would most certainly hurt more than just people trying to sell stuff there. The whole idea of this is that it IS based on real-life principles. By paying this tax of sorts, you're mimicking the real life system of renting out space to sell your wares. Less desirable spots cost less money. More desirable spots won't be affordable to small-time sellers. Thus the sellers spread out, taking the buyers with them. If you really look at the idea of renting offices to sell things, it's essentially the same as what I'm proposing. The problem with offices, though, is that they aren't fluid. Once you rent an office, it's rented. If you only pay a tax when you actually sell something, it's easier to make smaller sales, even if it's still expensive. Thus it's a smaller change to the existing market system. It's like the difference between renting a store for a month and renting it for 5 years. If you rent the office every month for 5 years, it's just as expensive (or possibly even more), but at any time you can stop.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:37:00 - [25] Indeed. Offices arent fluid. But that's part of the charm with risk vs reward. And smaller sales could still be accomplished by selling to or through someone that indeed HAS an office. With ambulation I think we could see some very interesting bussinesses and offices appearing (with a new kind of system like the one you've proposed). Though as usual I doubt that CCP actually read all we spew out on here There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.

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