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Vargur: One unhappy matari whine

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Liisa Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:13:00 - [61] I would like to add two points to the discussion: Firstly, the Vargur will out preform all other minmatar ships on some missions with it's ACs. However, from my experience this is not even half of the missions and with this comes the crux of the problem: why spend 600? + million isk on a ship which is only an improvement half of the time and a problem the other half? What really kills the Vargur is the lack of flexibility. It is, due to the very low powergrid, forced to always shield tank and use ACs. It has no other options. It is a very expensive one trick pony which, while doing that thing very well, does not justify the cost. Secondly - For PvP I would say that it probably an excellent close range ship. It has everything you might need: a great tank, great falloff, good speed and "expensive toy" written all over it. It makes for a great gate camper as it can reach all targets with its guns and does not have to move, even on minmatar gates. Oh, and to those who use multi-billion modules when arguing balance: you're idiots. Almost any ship is great when you sink that much isk into it. Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches
M00dy Killed In Action The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:14:00 - [62] Vargur fails. EOS RATatatatatat - Moody Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.02 19:19:00 - [63] Originally by: Captain Dralisz i dont know why the matars crying always. vargur: high: 4x 800mm ACt2, 2 salvager, 1 tractor med: 100mn ab t2,gist-b xl, 2x SBA t2, 2 hardener t2 low: 2x cap flux coil t2, 2 gyro stab t2, damage control t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 812 (barrage) with 3x ogre t2 range:6+45 the gist B xl is working always. (1009 eff dps) em-thermal kronos: high: 4X425mm rail t2, 2 salvager, 1 tarctor med: 3X cap rech t2, 100mn ab t2 low: 1600mm rolled, centus-b LAR, 4 hardener t2, 1 en adaptive nano t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 433 (spike)+3 ogre t2 range: 130+30 (targeting 108) the armor rep is working always. (427 eff dps) em-thermal with javelin: 18+30 range and 614dps+3x ogret2 so stop crying matar! My post. First page. Read it. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.02 22:55:00 - [64] Liang you are totally ignorant. You can't compair a ship's DPS wearing short range guns with one that wears long range ones. The long ranged ship is way more versatile in PvE. Period. Not even a 1 week noob would say that noncence.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.02 23:26:00 - [65] If you are as unhappy with the Vargur's limitations as I am, don't use it. I still have hopes that CCP will realize that it's badly designed once they see how few of them are actually used. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:01:00 - [66] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Liang you are totally ignorant. You can't compair a ship's DPS wearing short range guns with one that wears long range ones. The long ranged ship is way more versatile in PvE. Period. Not even a 1 week noob would say that noncence. Funny, IIRC, the Vargur doesn't really have the PG to fit for long range - so if you're going to use one, you will use autocannons. Also, if you use a Maelstrom for PVE, except in very very specific circumstances, you'll be using artillery. So, I compared actual PVE fittings that dealt with enforced limitations on the ships. Come again with who's ignorant? -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:02:00 - [67] In fact i think you have missed the actual purpose of this whole thread that is actually to demonstrate these very limitations that make the ship worthless and untrustworthy for serious PvE considering as well the amount of skillpoints it needs to be flyied and the amount of isks it needs to be aquired. I am happy that you are able to realise at least the ships severe flaw in PG. And the purpose of this exact thread is in fact that CCP realise their mistake in ship design and make a few changes the simplest of which would be to reaise considerably the PG of the ship.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar In fact i think you have missed the actual purpose of this whole thread that is actually to demonstrate these very limitations that make the ship worthless and untrustworthy for serious PvE considering as well the amount of skillpoints it needs to be flyied and the amount of isks it needs to be aquired. I am happy that you are able to realise at least the ships severe flaw in PG. And the purpose of this exact thread is in fact that CCP realise their mistake in ship design and make a few changes the simplest of which would be to reaise considerably the PG of the ship. WTF? Are you reading my posts or just trolling with random words strung together? -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 03:46:00 - [69] Oh i think it is clear who is the one who is just trolling with random words strung together.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 03:48:00 - [70] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Oh i think it is clear who is the one who is just trolling with random words strung together. ok. u win. ur uber and im sry and i rely didnt mean 2 hurt ur feelengs... but i reely don no wat u wunt fr me 2 say? -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 04:38:00 - [71] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 03/01/2008 04:44:16 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Oh i think it is clear who is the one who is just trolling with random words strung together. ok. u win. ur uber and im sry and i rely didnt mean 2 hurt ur feelengs... but i reely don no wat u wunt fr me 2 say? Your posts make obvious to all that you are tottaly ignorant on missions. The numbers you put mean nothing. You can't use barrage effectivly vs NPC's . It will cost a lot in amount of ammo and an ammo giving mostly explosive damage is counterproductive against most NPC's. Also most NPCs are trying to keep their distance from you. With an AB you won't be able to approach them as close you 'd like and if you try to reach them with your drones they ll gain aggro and be killed quickly. And also the expencive named modules you use could make any crappy ship look great so you don't make a point by all that. I know you love trolling these forums because it gives meaning to your miserable life but its time to make a change. Log in and play the game a bit too for a change you ll see you will get better in time to come. And who knows....maybe one day you may even realise how noob you were before and then who knows maybe you will even be sorry for the nonsences you have said and ask for forgivness.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 04:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Your posts make obvious to all that you are tottaly ignorant on missions. ... ok? Are you sure you read MY post? Quote: The numbers you put mean nothing. You can't use barrage effectivly vs NPC's. It will cost a lot in amount of ammo and an ammo giving mostly explosive damage is counterproductive against most NPC's. Funny, you won't find me recommending using barrage anywhere in this thread. I was using EMP as a sample ammo in my post. Someone later on recommended Barrage against Angels though. Quote: Also most NPCs are trying to keep their distance from you. With an AB you won't be able to approach them as close you 'd like and if you try to reach them with your drones they ll gain aggro and be killed quickly. Not necessarily true. You'll be significantly faster than most NPC ships with an AB fit. Quote: And also the expencive named modules you use could make any crappy ship look great so you don't make a point by all that. If someone's using a Vargur (750M battleship) for their missioning, I assume that they'd want to protect the investment, and are likely a "seasoned" mission runner. Quote: I know you love trolling these forums because it gives meaning to your miserable life but its time to make a change. Log in and play the game a bit too cause the game is not about trolling the forums but also playing the game. Wow... I guess we definitely found out who's trolling these forums. ;-) FYI, I log in every day. I'd be logged in right now, but I got stuck at work reviewing some code. =( -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 04:54:00 - [73] Very well. Without Barrage you will drop further down in range. at 3+30 with max skills. Ypu won't be able to approach them at 30kms using an AB in a BS let alone track the smaller ships with your large ACs.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 04:56:00 - [74] Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 04:57:19 Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 03/01/2008 04:44:16 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Oh i think it is clear who is the one who is just trolling with random words strung together. ok. u win. ur uber and im sry and i rely didnt mean 2 hurt ur feelengs... but i reely don no wat u wunt fr me 2 say? Your posts make obvious to all that you are tottaly ignorant on missions. The numbers you put mean nothing. You can't use barrage effectivly vs NPC's . It will cost a lot in amount of ammo and an ammo giving mostly explosive damage is counterproductive against most NPC's. Also most NPCs are trying to keep their distance from you. With an AB you won't be able to approach them as close you 'd like and if you try to reach them with your drones they ll gain aggro and be killed quickly. And also the expencive named modules you use could make any crappy ship look great so you don't make a point by all that. I know you love trolling these forums because it gives meaning to your miserable life but its time to make a change. Log in and play the game a bit too for a change you ll see you will get better in time to come. And who knows....maybe one day you may even realise how noob you were before and then who knows maybe you will even be sorry for the nonsences you have said and ask for forgivness. The MAX orbit distance of ANY rat in ANY mission, except for one storyline, is 49km. Nothing orbits further, ever. 49km is within the first falloff of Barrage on the Vargur. Even at 49km, you will outdamage a rail Kronos or cruise Golem in missions by a mile. At closer ranges it becomes even more of a blowout. And yes, these are the weapons you have to fit on those ships if you're missioning. Not even Javelin torpedoes will reach out to 49km away, and neutron blasters....well, duh. Using ACs with a tracking bonus also gives you amazing tracking, you can hit unwebbed close-orbit HACs while Amarr/Gallente cannot. Rail tracking is so bad that the Kronos' 99% web is not enough on its own to track a frigate, you actually have to stop moving to change direction to fly directly at the frigate before you can hit it. Vargur is a very close second place behind the Paladin for best new mission ship. It sucks ass in PvP, but it's not supposed to be good at PvP.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 04:58:00 - [75] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Very well. Without Barrage you will drop further down in range. at 3+30 with max skills. Ypu won't be able to approach them at 30kms using an AB in a BS let alone track the smaller ships with your large ACs. Sigh. I took all that into account already. Try reading my post please. The most important one is on the first page. If you have questions about what I meant by something, please feel free to ask. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Xequecal The MAX orbit distance of ANY rat in ANY mission, except for one storyline, is 49km. Nothing orbits further, ever. 49km is within the first falloff of Barrage on the Vargur. Cool, I was looking for that tidbit of information. Where'd you find it? Also, 49km is not within falloff for the Vargur unless you're using Barrage... which doesn't work so well against those Guristas. ;-) Quote: Even at 49km, you will outdamage a rail Kronos or cruise Golem in missions by a mile. At closer ranges it becomes even more of a blowout. And yes, these are the weapons you have to fit on those ships if you're missioning. Not even Javelin torpedoes will reach out to 49km away, and neutron blasters....well, duh. This is flat false, if you'd like me to post a comparison, it would be fairly straightforward. Quote: Using ACs with a tracking bonus also gives you amazing tracking, you can hit unwebbed close-orbit HACs while Amarr/Gallente cannot. Rail tracking is so bad that the Kronos' 99% web is not enough on its own to track a frigate, you actually have to stop moving to change direction to fly directly at the frigate before you can hit it. Yeah, the web bonus seems a bit iffy to me, but it's just begging for a domination webber. Hell, as far as mission goodies go, it's not even that expensive... ;-) Quote: Vargur is a very close second place behind the Paladin for best new mission ship. It sucks ass in PvP, but it's not supposed to be good at PvP. OOOOH, I get it. You're being sarcastic. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:23:00 - [77] Originally by: Xequecal Even at 49km, you will outdamage a rail Kronos or cruise Golem in missions by a mile. This is complete and utter nonsense. 800mm T2 on Vargur, Barrage L, max skills: 6 Km optimal, 45 Km falloff. Damage at 49 Km is 43/45 of 50% max. theoretical DPS, which is 407 without damage mods and without Drones, therefore 194.45 DPS. 425mm T2 on Kronos, Uranium L (cheap T1 ammo!), no damage reduction since in optimal range, therefore 293 DPS. Golem - easy, 264 DPS with T1 cruise missiles. Paladin - 380 DPS with T1 Xray (optimal: 50Km) Tracking is not considered, but at 49Km no NPC orbits so fast that 425mm T2 with max. skills and T1 ammo can't keep up. Quote: At closer ranges it becomes even more of a blowout. And yes, these are the weapons you have to fit on those ships if you're missioning. Not even Javelin torpedoes will reach out to 49km away, and neutron blasters....well, duh. You can mission in anything if the ship is appropriately fitted. Blasters will work just like Javelin torps and just like ACs if you want to gimp your tank and fit an AB. But all of these are stupid unless specifically chosen for a close-range mission. Only an idiot would use Barrage L and ACs for anything but Angel missions if he was trying to maximise his ISK/hour. Quote: Using ACs with a tracking bonus also gives you amazing tracking, you can hit unwebbed close-orbit HACs while Amarr/Gallente cannot. just LOL ... The Golem is still much better at this and the Kronos has a 99% web bonus. And a really close-orbit HAC is impossible for the Vargur to hit efficiently, especially with Barrage L. Quote: Rail tracking is so bad that the Kronos' 99% web is not enough on its own to track a frigate, you actually have to stop moving to change direction to fly directly at the frigate before you can hit it. A 99% webbed frigate is much easier to hit at 6Km (Vargur's optimal) with 425mm T2 railguns than with 800mm T2 ACs and Barrage L and no webbing. 3.5 times worse tracking and 99% slower speed, come on, can you be that clueless? Quote: Vargur is a very close second place behind the Paladin for best new mission ship. It sucks ass in PvP, but it's not supposed to be good at PvP. Well, if it's second with your clueless assumptions, it's obvious how bad it really has to be. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:35:00 - [78] Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 05:39:03 Edited by: Xequecal on 03/01/2008 05:37:28 Quote: You can mission in anything if the ship is appropriately fitted. Blasters will work just like Javelin torps and just like ACs if you want to gimp your tank and fit an AB. But all of these are stupid unless specifically chosen for a close-range mission. Only an idiot would use Barrage L and ACs for anything but Angel missions if he was trying to maximise his ISK/hour. Oh, you CAN mission with blasters and an AB if you really want to, in the sense that you'll eventually complete the mission. However, it'll take you far longer to burn all the way over to the long range rats and shoot them than it will to just shoot them with the Vargur. Quote: Using ACs with a tracking bonus also gives you amazing tracking, you can hit unwebbed close-orbit HACs while Amarr/Gallente cannot. I assumed you would understand that when I said close-orbit I meant beyond 10km, as it's OBVIOUS that a 99% web makes the HACs easy to hit. The Vargur just creams the Kronos here overall, on anything cruiser or BC sized that orbits outside of 10km. Quote: A 99% webbed frigate is much easier to hit at 6Km (Vargur's optimal) with 425mm T2 railguns than with 800mm T2 ACs and Barrage L and no webbing. 3.5 times worse tracking and 99% slower speed, come on, can you be that clueless? I didn't directly compare shooting a webbed frigate to a nonwebbed one, I just used that as an example. Quote: Well, if it's second with your clueless assumptions, it's obvious how bad it really has to be. The Paladin, thanks to 10,000 shot faction crystals that cost one fiftieth of what faction ammo for other races generally costs, (and therefore is viable to use in missions) and enough grid to fit 4x Tachyons to mission with, means you can go with 2x SS tracking computer and Tachyons in the highs, giving you a 45km optimal range with Amarr Navy MF. This is 915 GUN DPS (before drones) with 3 damage mods, figure out what it is for less if you want. It also has the 99% web to shoot close in ships with the Tachyons. EDIT: Never mind on the first point, I just noticed you said without drones. It is much easier to fit 3x damage mods on the Vargur than it is on the Kronos. The Kronos needs low slots to tank. The Vargur doesn't really need them for anything but damage, since it's shield tanking.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:42:00 - [79] Originally by: Liang Nuren OOOOH, I get it. You're being sarcastic.-Liang Use Tachyons with faction ammo. Amarr is the only race that can mission with faction ammo, and the Paladin is the only ship with enough grid to run a full rack of them in a viable mission setup. Like I just posted, you do 915 GUN DPS at 45km with Amarr Navy MF and two tracking computers, and can switch out other ammo for even longer ranges if you want to shoot at the rats while you approach the inert ones.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:45:00 - [80] Originally by: Xequecal EDIT: Never mind on the first point, I just noticed you said without drones. It is much easier to fit 3x damage mods on the Vargur than it is on the Kronos. The Kronos needs low slots to tank. The Vargur doesn't really need them for anything but damage, since it's shield tanking. The Kronos with 1 damage mod beats the Vargur/Barrage L with 3 damage mods at 49Km, as do all the other Marauders (even the Golem, which can fit 3 easily). So your claim was nonense, with or without Drones. As for the other points, try harder to find some specific rare situations where the Vargur might be more than worthless... So far, you've failed. Are you some RPing Amarr weirdo who is posting this nonsense on purpose? Please use the RP forum for stuff like that. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:54:00 - [81] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Xequecal EDIT: Never mind on the first point, I just noticed you said without drones. It is much easier to fit 3x damage mods on the Vargur than it is on the Kronos. The Kronos needs low slots to tank. The Vargur doesn't really need them for anything but damage, since it's shield tanking. The Kronos with 1 damage mod beats the Vargur/Barrage L with 3 damage mods at 49Km, as do all the other Marauders (even the Golem, which can fit 3 easily). So your claim was nonense, with or without Drones. As for the other points, try harder to find some specific rare situations where the Vargur might be more than worthless... So far, you've failed. Are you some RPing Amarr weirdo who is posting this nonsense on purpose? Please use the RP forum for stuff like that. You mean like you're not doing the same? In your situation, the Kronos wins at 49km by 6 DPS. The Vargur will beat it on anything closer, which in typical missions is all the cruisers/BCs and slightly more than half the battleships. Also, not all the "far orbit" BSes orbit at 49km, this is actually pretty rare, every different named BS type with a far orbit has a different orbit radius, it ranges from 36-49km.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.03 06:01:00 - [82] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Xequecal EDIT: Never mind on the first point, I just noticed you said without drones. It is much easier to fit 3x damage mods on the Vargur than it is on the Kronos. The Kronos needs low slots to tank. The Vargur doesn't really need them for anything but damage, since it's shield tanking. The Kronos with 1 damage mod beats the Vargur/Barrage L with 3 damage mods at 49Km, as do all the other Marauders (even the Golem, which can fit 3 easily). So your claim was nonense, with or without Drones. As for the other points, try harder to find some specific rare situations where the Vargur might be more than worthless... So far, you've failed. Are you some RPing Amarr weirdo who is posting this nonsense on purpose? Please use the RP forum for stuff like that. You mean like you're not doing the same? In your situation, the Kronos wins at 49km by 6 DPS. The Vargur will beat it on anything closer, No, it won't. At 36Km it will use Antimatter L and do 430 DPS, while the Vargur will do around 421 DPS. And let's not forget that AM (kinetic+thermal) is generally more useful against most NPCs than Barrage and that we're talking about 1 vs. 3 damage mods. Trying to "RP" the Vargur into something good is pointless, it only serves to discredit yourself and troll this thread. Please stop. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.01.03 06:10:00 - [83] Originally by: Lazuran No, it won't. At 36Km it will use Antimatter L and do 430 DPS, while the Vargur will do around 421 DPS. And let's not forget that AM (kinetic+thermal) is generally more useful against most NPCs than Barrage and that we're talking about 1 vs. 3 damage mods. Trying to "RP" the Vargur into something good is pointless, it only serves to discredit yourself and troll this thread. Please stop. You're doing it again. I specifically said that time that half the BSes in a mission orbit at 36-49km. HALF. Seriously, do you even mission? Half the BSes in a typical mission sit and shoot you from inside 20km. There are also NUMEROUS cruisers, HACs, and BCs in the missions that the Kronos WILL have problems tracking, but the Vargur will not. They are also close enough that the Vargur will easily out-DPS rails on them. Also, the Vargur can choose damagetype on the close-in stuff, it's definetly lower damage ammo but it's better than being stuck with Kin/Therm for everything.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.03 07:15:00 - [84] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/01/2008 07:18:02 Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/01/2008 07:16:13 Originally by: Xequecal You're doing it again. I specifically said that time that half the BSes in a mission orbit at 36-49km. HALF. Seriously, do you even mission? Half the BSes in a typical mission sit and shoot you from inside 20km. There are also NUMEROUS cruisers, HACs, and BCs in the missions that the Kronos WILL have problems tracking, but the Vargur will not. They are also close enough that the Vargur will easily out-DPS rails on them. Also, the Vargur can choose damagetype on the close-in stuff, it's definetly lower damage ammo but it's better than being stuck with Kin/Therm for everything. Funny, I dont seem to have trouble hitting cruisers/HAC/BC's with artillery, why would it be a problem with rails? All it takes a little skill flying to keep transversal down. Sure some missions dump you with everything in your face, but its not hard to avoid those (or actively select them) depending on your fit. Even then they arent that hard to deal with. Also, it tends to be that case that in a single mission, either all the ships will close distance, or they will keep at range. You talk as though its 50/50 for every mission. Additionally, any seasoned mission runner knows to keep multiple agents on deck and pick and choose which missions they run. Either you pick the mission faction for its loot/salvage or you pick what you can kill the fastest. Why would a rail Kronos pilot pick a mission where they would do sub-par damage due to close range tracking problems? Why would a AC/barrage Vargur pilot not favor Angel missions? As to the faction ammo comments made: why would you not what to use faction ammo mission running? The increase income from running missions faster far outweighs the cost. Maybe not the case if you are using AC's without the marauder innate bonus. Heck, last i checked Barrage L is cheaper than most flavors Republic Fleet L in Jita. As a side note, run the damage numbers on Barrage with 2 fall off rigs. You'll find its does well even with the limited damage type as unlike fusion, barrage is almost half kinetic. I was very surprised, even comparing it to artillery with PP against gurista resists.
Najenna Minmatar The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.03 07:30:00 - [85] Originally by: Lrrp First off, why would anyone want to use the Vargur for PvP(a 750 mil ship) when a Typhoon fitted with torp launchers and AC's is better AND much the cheaper. For PvE, again, the T2 Vargur gives no distinct advantage other than tractor range and cargo hold size. I think most people who can afford a T2 BS probably have a 2nd acct that tags along to salvage anyway. Having tried both Tempests and Maelstroms for lvl 4's, I sold the Tempest and only use the Maelstrom. Disagree with the last line. Tempest will outdmg and kill faster than a maelstrom. So you sold the wrong ship mate.. But to each his own. I ain't telling you how to play your game just disagreeing.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 07:40:00 - [86] Originally by: Najenna Disagree with the last line. Tempest will outdmg and kill faster than a maelstrom. So you sold the wrong ship mate.. But to each his own. I ain't telling you how to play your game just disagreeing. I'm really curious why you think this. If it's necessary, we can start a new thread so as not to clutter this one up. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.03 07:41:00 - [87] Originally by: Najenna Disagree with the last line. Tempest will outdmg and kill faster than a maelstrom. So you sold the wrong ship mate.. But to each his own. I ain't telling you how to play your game just disagreeing. How exactly? Sure I can see in an AC/torp setup on close range missions (if that even fits with a tank), but the maelstrom will still fit a much better tank in almost all cases. With artillery, you dont have the grid to really use cruises or torps, and in any setup, you'll have to be reduced to a 3 slot tank if you want more than 3 gyros. I guess you could shield tank it, but the mael does a far better job of that as well.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 07:43:00 - [88] Originally by: Xequecal Use Tachyons with faction ammo. Amarr is the only race that can mission with faction ammo, and the Paladin is the only ship with enough grid to run a full rack of them in a viable mission setup. Like I just posted, you do 915 GUN DPS at 45km with Amarr Navy MF and two tracking computers, and can switch out other ammo for even longer ranges if you want to shoot at the rats while you approach the inert ones. The only way you're going to get 915 DPS with a 45km optimal is to have 3 Amarr Navy Heatsinks (which is entirely reasonable!), Amarr Navy Multi, and a pair of faction tracking comps with range scripts loaded. It will do lots more damage at pretty much any range, but its tank really shows it too. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.03 09:06:00 - [89] Zaran Darkstar you made my day, i actualy had to laugh alot. You proved that there are people who react without even reading anything on the specific thread. Because what you are saying to Liang does not make any sense whatsoever, or maybe you accidently swapped Liang for someone else, yeah that must be it, even a troll can't be so much beside the point
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:23:00 - [90] Originally by: Slide Zaran Darkstar you made my day, i actualy had to laugh alot. You proved that there are people who react without even reading anything on the specific thread. Because what you are saying to Liang does not make any sense whatsoever, or maybe you accidently swapped Liang for someone else, yeah that must be it, even a troll can't be so much beside the point So bots do have a voice after all! Now whose alt are you? I can;t understand why you people keep on defending this piece of crap. Unless you have some BPO of the ship and you feel your business might be ruined. Fact is that the market itself will react. People will not buy the ship and the few idiots that will buy it they will recycle it in the end to reduce the loss. Wait and see

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