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War Thieves - iMune Empire

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Wynona Mesopotamia iMune Empire	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:15:00 - [1] I log in tonight, there's no warning in Ashley Sky's or my eve mail. Check my RL email, nope, nothing. Nothing in the players news section either. But apparently in general discussion there's some random thread with a generic whiny 'topic' that has one single post from a GM threatening our customers with some kind of vague warning for exploiting a loophole. WTF? If you're just getting back from holiday, read my thread "Free War Removal Service" or see link above my sig. So what is the rule now, 1 day, 15 minutes, 1 week? I mean any corp can join an alliance, who is going to stop that corp from quitting, or, if they suck and need to be kicked, how long sucking is sucking long enough? Will they get the same warning, and what exactly is this new imaginary protocol we're supposed to follow? This game mechanic we use was pre-petitioned. We were told it is not an exploit. Even a corp who's war we absorbed petitioned it up to the top, nope, not an exploit. I sent 2 detailed bug reports, same thing, it's an intended game feature. Re-read your concord mails, it's been there for years saying the same old thing. What we're doing isn't something new or some tricky mechanical manipulation. For the last 13 days, our alliance has been a virtual sticky in General Discussion and Crime and Punishment totalling over 23 thousand reads. This isn't fresh news boys, and I feel it's being handled in haste by a GM who just got back from holiday. Unfortunately, at the expense of our alliance and it's customers. Don't the people at CCP talk with each other or have a thing called "being on the same page"? I would like a public apology from CCP, but doubt I'll get it. Surviving in Eve takes creativity, and we found an entertaining viable business that would be fun to manage. We take unwanted wars and fight them with players who want to fight, plain 'n simple. Apparently griefers aren't used to being griefed... ôThere is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.ö - Herbert Spencer Click here for Free War Removal Service
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:17:00 - [2] Sucks mate, but you're gettin smacked with the nerf bat... ------------ Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
Drachma Golea Caldari Egnop	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:22:00 - [3] I also do wonder what the GM's will say... they prolly mean that joining deliberately for the cause of dodging the wardec is somehow een as an exploit... I for one, like the whole idea of the iMune alliance, and if I read correctly, my single char corp can join the alliance for a mere 2 mil isk a month? If that is the case, I really would like to join iMune, just to see how it feels, and get a little pvp experience...
Windjammer	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:54:00 - [4] I thought I knew which way this was going to go, but now that I've heard more information on it I'm not sure. In the GM's post on the referenced thread he didn't state that it was an exploit. Rather he said it was "cheating". Perhaps this is a minor piece of syamantics, but it does lack the official stamp of term exploit. If this is a matter of so
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:58:00 - [5] A senior GM has already declared this an exploit. Senior GM >>> bug hunter, petitioning this under a bug just shows deliberate misdirection on your part. Enjoy your bans if you continue.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:59:00 - [6] Edited by: General Coochie on 02/01/2008 11:00:33 Sucks to be honest. We all knew this was coming though sooner or later. It was sooner then anticipated. Game mechanic is there to be used like that, someone utilizes it -> nerf it. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:05:00 - [7] Hahah im shocked that you didnt see this coming ? I mean come on privateers system was game mech aswell until enoguh people complained and set the standard. Now CCP follows up on that set standard that no one should be able to have massive amounts of wardecs at no cost. And you shouldnt be able to "run away" from a wardec. I for one thank CCP for once smacking someone in the face with a nerfbat and stick to a standard.
hedfunk Caldari Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:09:00 - [8] This isn't an exploit imo. But then neither was the privs. You'll get nerfed anyway. Good luck Alliance 'i'.
Savage Creampuff Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:11:00 - [9] Edited by: Savage Creampuff on 02/01/2008 11:11:31 I wonder if you'll be called Alliance 'i' edit:^^ beat me to it Quote: I've sent in plenty of petitions but it seems that CCP just doesn't care about me. Without knowledge of market dynamics theres no way I can compete with these griefers
Ursula LeGuinn	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:15:00 - [10] Originally by: General Coochie Sucks to be honest. We all knew this was coming though sooner or later. It was sooner then anticipated. Game mechanic is there to be used like that, someone utilizes it -> nerf it. I disagree that the mechanic was "intended to be used like that". People are supposed to join corporations and form alliances because they want to play the game together, not to thwart game functions such as war declarations. In this case, people aren't joining the alliance because they want to be part of the alliance; they're joining it, in most cases, because they want to ditch their wardec. As a returning player in a new (but thriving, IMO) corp, I have much to fear from random wardecs. Even so, I'm going to have to take the mercs' side on this one, and say that joining an alliance with the sole intention of ditching your wardecs is a bastardization of the rules. That being said, hats off to you iMune folks for being creative! The execution of this scheme was stylish and well played.

Spaced Skunk 9omH	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:20:00 - [11] Originally by: hedfunk This isn't an exploit imo. But then neither was the privs. You'll get nerfed anyway. Good luck Alliance 'i'. The privateers was not an exploit, they never said it was. They changed the war pricing to nerf this system This is a loophole in the game mechanics however, and a senior GM said it on the forums clearly and agreed it was. Obviously your still at it, but I dont think you can get petitioned for it. Its more of the CEOs that will be joining your alliance to use this loophole will be getting the warning as regards to GM Novas post. Did you not think your alliance would end like this, or are you annoying that it comes so quick? To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Ursula LeGuinn Originally by: General Coochie Sucks to be honest. We all knew this was coming though sooner or later. It was sooner then anticipated. Game mechanic is there to be used like that, someone utilizes it -> nerf it. I disagree that the mechanic was "intended to be used like that". People are supposed to join corporations and form alliances because they want to play the game together, not to thwart game functions such as war declarations. In this case, people aren't joining the alliance because they want to be part of the alliance; they're joining it, in most cases, because they want to ditch their wardec. As a returning player in a new (but thriving, IMO) corp, I have much to fear from random wardecs. Even so, I'm going to have to take the mercs' side on this one, and say that joining an alliance with the sole intention of ditching your wardecs is a bastardization of the rules. That being said, hats off to you iMune folks for being creative! The execution of this scheme was stylish and well played. They could have made the game mechanic no to transfer the war to the alliance. They could also make the leaving corp have the war on them for more then 24hours but they didn't do it like that. Therefore the game mechanic allows you to do it. Off course it wasn't intended that a alliance should use this to get free war decs and at the same time removing war from a corp. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
missquid Minmatar Taurus Inc	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:41:00 - [13] Quote: If that is the case, I really would like to join iMune, just to see how it feels, and get a little pvp experience... You are sadly mistaken if you think any of the 17 or so iMune members will actually log in and undock to help you fight anything. Thats how they roll.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:49:00 - [14] Seriously, Wynona, you can't honestly say that this whole thing made any sense what so ever? Sure, it's been around a long time, but then again, noone has done it on the scale you guys did. You should feel proud that you discovered a loophole and got CCP to act promptly and close it. If you give the coders some time they'll most likely do over the system in a future patch. It's not going to happen tomorrow, so until then, let's try to use some common sense. What you guys were doing was not how war mechanics were supposed to work. Anyone can see that. That GM Nova came out and said so, and relatively soon after it first became an issue, shows clear vision on her part, and she should be commended for it. CCP usually make no statements at all, even when something clearly goes against the intent of mechanics. I say, good work Nova. To iMune I say, you can still serve a purpose and help small corps. You're just going to have to fight the wars you inherit.
Wyliee Taurus Inc	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Wynona I log in tonight, there's no warning in Ashley Sky's or my eve mail. Check my RL email, nope, nothing. Nothing in the players news section either. But apparently in general discussion there's some random thread with a generic whiny 'topic' that has one single post from a GM threatening our customers with some kind of vague warning for exploiting a loophole. WTF? If you're just getting back from holiday, read my thread "Free War Removal Service" or see link above my sig. So what is the rule now, 1 day, 15 minutes, 1 week? I mean any corp can join an alliance, who is going to stop that corp from quitting, or, if they suck and need to be kicked, how long sucking is sucking long enough? Will they get the same warning, and what exactly is this new imaginary protocol we're supposed to follow? This game mechanic we use was pre-petitioned. We were told it is not an exploit. Even a corp who's war we absorbed petitioned it up to the top, nope, not an exploit. I sent 2 detailed bug reports, same thing, it's an intended game feature. Re-read your concord mails, it's been there for years saying the same old thing. What we're doing isn't something new or some tricky mechanical manipulation. For the last 13 days, our alliance has been a virtual sticky in General Discussion and Crime and Punishment totalling over 23 thousand reads. This isn't fresh news boys, and I feel it's being handled in haste by a GM who just got back from holiday. Unfortunately, at the expense of our alliance and it's customers. Don't the people at CCP talk with each other or have a thing called "being on the same page"? I would like a public apology from CCP, but doubt I'll get it. Surviving in Eve takes creativity, and we found an entertaining viable business that would be fun to manage. We take unwanted wars and fight them with players who want to fight, plain 'n simple. Apparently griefers aren't used to being griefed... ôThere is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.ö - Herbert Spencer this is pretty much utter rubbish you dont charge for people to join your alliance, you dont even expect them to contact you first. you kick them as soon as you are able. how is that a viable buisness? you have 16 members that suck at pvp and spend the time running away or dying.
Wynona Mesopotamia iMune Empire	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:56:00 - [16] For those of you new to Concord mails, I have one here. Quote: If you are at war with a corporation that joins an alliance then the war will change from being against the corporation to being against the alliance. If you are at war with an alliance and a corporation leaves that alliance then you will still be at war with the alliance but also temporarily at war with the corporation that left. The war against the corporation that leaves an alliance lasts 24 hours during this period you can attack them until the war expires. Should you wish to resume hostilities against such a corporation then you need to declare war again. I rest my case. Click here for Free War Removal Service
Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:04:00 - [17] Edited by: Ja''kar on 02/01/2008 12:04:24 Well I think that while it was clever of you t do it - it is not how eve war dec system should be used so I am very happy if it gets nerfed - also privater was I think different.... Jut be happy you had some fun over it You should of heard my whinge over wt0
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Wynona For those of you new to Concord mails, I have one here. Quote: If you are at war with a corporation that joins an alliance then the war will change from being against the corporation to being against the alliance. If you are at war with an alliance and a corporation leaves that alliance then you will still be at war with the alliance but also temporarily at war with the corporation that left. The war against the corporation that leaves an alliance lasts 24 hours during this period you can attack them until the war expires. Should you wish to resume hostilities against such a corporation then you need to declare war again. I rest my case. Which case is that? To support your cause, the Concord mail should be saying: Quote: So and so has declared war on you. Do you wish to fight this war, or do you wish to join a dummy alliance and shorten the war from one week to 24 hours? In other words, do you want /pvp on or /pvp off?
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:06:00 - [19] If you want to fight people who want to fight, either go to 0.0, or pay for it. I think that's the message. Everybody has a whine phase, even the most vehement forum warrior. It's your turn. Carry on. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
Dark Flyer Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:08:00 - [20] The game mechanics were never intended for people to avoid war dec's as pvp in eve is non-consensual. It's one of the mainstays of this game. From what I've read, the fault lies with the ceo's who actually use your service, because it's them that are actually committing the exploit. I just think your clients won't be too happen, when they eventually start getting more serious warnings or worse.

Captain Thunk Captain Morgan Society	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:49:00 - [21] The GM didn't say you would receive warnings or bans Wynona, so don't expect your inbox to start flashing anytime soon. What he did say is that CEOs of corps taking their corp into an alliance for the purpose of evading a legitimate war dec will receive a warning or possible ban. With this in mind, please continue advertising your services and keep your alliance running. If you can erradicate every corp that as soon as they are war dec'd think "how can I evade this by manipulating game mechanics" with permanent bans, then I for one, will be a very happy chappy. :happythunk: THUNK!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.02 14:46:00 - [22] 1) Being able to 'run away' from war decs in this fashion is clearly a problem. 2) There is absolutely no effective way to police this under the current completely broken war dec system. It needs a thorough overhaul.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.02 15:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Ulstan 1) Being able to 'run away' from war decs in this fashion is clearly a problem. 2) There is absolutely no effective way to police this under the current completely broken war dec system. It needs a thorough overhaul. agree Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.02 15:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Ulstan 1) Being able to 'run away' from war decs in this fashion is clearly a problem. 2) There is absolutely no effective way to police this under the current completely broken war dec system. It needs a thorough overhaul. Holy crap, most intelligent thing said in the 9000 threads on this subject! ------------ Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
Gwoden Gallente Exa Utopia Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:10:00 - [25] I don't see any threads in the general channel where a GM gave any warnings regarding this. Looked all the way back to page 7 where i found the original thread about iMune that i was following. Where is this warning from the GM? _______________________________________________ There is no "I can't" only "I will".
Ashley Sky Mesopotamia iMune Empire	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:11:00 - [26] As I see it... The mechanics of our alliance were all pre-petitioned before we fronted a billion isk to build an alliance based around the idea, and all ideas were fully approved. Then flip-flopper GM Nova came in and changed the rules on us with a vague statment. Bad PR, in my opinion. Our goals were to have fun with the easter egg that we had uncovered, have fun with all the commotion and attention, and take it as far as we could until it was appropriately nerfed. It's our style to bend the ethical boundies in the game, without breaking EULA or working game mechanics, and have fun on the fringes. We're evil mastermind villain role players, and have been since 2004. I would say that a vague statement by a GM is an inappropriate nerf. They basically punked us by doing forum damage control without actually addressing the issue at hand, or admitting that there were any mistakes in game mechanics. I'm waiting on a petition for them to more clearly explain themselves, but I think it's pretty futile at this point. According to the EVE FAQ... "The basic role-playing and space simulation aspects of EVE are really just the tip of the iceberg. When players band together to form factions and alliances, the game progresses to a more grand-scale strategic level. Political intrigue, corporate espionage and the very essence of Darwinism bring dimension and depth to the game as the struggle for fame and fortune ebbs and flows with each new day in EVE." Seeing how the events played out and how the company is dealing with the issue is a huge disappointment in my opinion. It just goes to show you that they'll have no problem with taking your money as you endlessly farm rats, minerals, and PvP mindlessly. However, any attempts to do something creative will be nerfed to oblivion, and the promises of player created, creative content are all lies.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Gwoden I don't see any threads in the general channel where a GM gave any warnings regarding this. Looked all the way back to page 7 where i found the original thread about iMune that i was following. Where is this warning from the GM? Here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=673134&page=2
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:14:00 - [28] just as a note, if imune ever wanted to go the priveteer route they could, all they would have to do is mutual the incoming cooperations wars. Then they could have the 0.0 in jita prvtr always wanted. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Viper ShizzIe Applied Eugenics Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Ashley Sky The mechanics of our alliance were all pre-petitioned before we fronted a billion isk to build an alliance based around the idea, and all ideas were fully approved. Then flip-flopper GM Nova came in and changed the rules on us with a vague statment. Bad PR, in my opinion. Knowing that this issue was going to be controversial you should have had the foresight to make sure it was escalated to a lead or senior GM, you didn't, and therefore you can't expect a pre-petition to save you from future consequences. Also: You can't call Nova a flip-flopper unless he was the one to originally answer your petition, as a senior GM it's his job to override and re-evaluate other GMs decisions. Originally by: Ashley Sky It's our style to bend the ethical boundies in the game, without breaking EULA or working game mechanics The thing is, this did break the war-dec mechanics further then they were already; allowing, in your mind, a legal, completely safe way for any idiots who know how to mash two buttons to avoid a wardec, instead of finding a way to do it themselves. EVE supllies ample opportunity for both PvP and non-PvP inclined players to enjoy the game, and your method of aversion effectively ruins this balance.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Ashley Sky It just goes to show you that they'll have no problem with taking your money as you endlessly farm rats, minerals, and PvP mindlessly. However, any attempts to do something creative will be nerfed to oblivion, and the promises of player created, creative content are all lies. qft Good luck surviving this nerf , Alliance i.



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