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Bring back PvP for profit.

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shismo	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:14:00 - [31] Remove killmail (its not realistic and promotes statwhoring). Give players an isk reward every time they kill another player. Divide it evenly among all people involved, but subtract 20% for each additional person involved who does damage) (so if say, killing a certain ship is worth, 10mil, if two people are involved they get 8mil, or 4 mil each, if one person is just tackling and does no damage, they both get 5mil, if there are three people and one tackles one jams or nosses or does some other non-damage thing and only the third damages, they get 3.33mil each etc.) Each ship type would be worth a different amount. Maybe even each ship would be worth a different amount. Subtract 50% from all values for war targets (concord taking it as tax). There, a buff for pirates.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:22:00 - [32] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/01/2008 13:23:49 Originally by: shismo Remove killmail (its not realistic and promotes statwhoring). Give players an isk reward every time they kill another player. Divide it evenly among all people involved, but subtract 20% for each additional person involved who does damage) (so if say, killing a certain ship is worth, 10mil, if two people are involved they get 8mil, or 4 mil each, if one person is just tackling and does no damage, they both get 5mil, if there are three people and one tackles one jams or nosses or does some other non-damage thing and only the third damages, they get 3.33mil each etc.) Each ship type would be worth a different amount. Maybe even each ship would be worth a different amount. Subtract 50% from all values for war targets (concord taking it as tax). There, a buff for pirates. This is a horrible suggestion. First, it injects even more raw ISK into the economy then now. Second, it's exploitable, me and my gang-mates would kill each other all day long with civilian gear in fully insured ships and rack millions, unless the payout was less then the cost of premium insurance... Third, it doesn't make sense at all. Why would any NPC entity give you money for blowing up another player's ship? Lastly, what's "not realistic" about killmails? What, you think that in combat situation, nobody cares about casuality reports because they promote statwhoring? Killmails are perfectly fine. Edit: If CCP wants to make PvP more profitable, then make stuff less likely to explode when the ship is destroyed, that would increase the profitability a bit. However, nomatter what you do, PvP will always be worse then a zero-sum game, and even in a zero-sum game, only the best really profit. Rifters!
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:38:00 - [33] This thread delivers chuckles . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
shismo	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:41:00 - [34] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/01/2008 13:23:49 Originally by: shismo Remove killmail (its not realistic and promotes statwhoring). Give players an isk reward every time they kill another player. Divide it evenly among all people involved, but subtract 20% for each additional person involved who does damage) (so if say, killing a certain ship is worth, 10mil, if two people are involved they get 8mil, or 4 mil each, if one person is just tackling and does no damage, they both get 5mil, if there are three people and one tackles one jams or nosses or does some other non-damage thing and only the third damages, they get 3.33mil each etc.) Each ship type would be worth a different amount. Maybe even each ship would be worth a different amount. Subtract 50% from all values for war targets (concord taking it as tax). There, a buff for pirates. This is a horrible suggestion. First, it injects even more raw ISK into the economy then now. Second, it's exploitable, me and my gang-mates would kill each other all day long with civilian gear in fully insured ships and rack millions, unless the payout was less then the cost of premium insurance... Third, it doesn't make sense at all. Why would any NPC entity give you money for blowing up another player's ship? Lastly, what's "not realistic" about killmails? What, you think that in combat situation, nobody cares about casuality reports because they promote statwhoring? Killmails are perfectly fine. Edit: If CCP wants to make PvP more profitable, then make stuff less likely to explode when the ship is destroyed, that would increase the profitability a bit. However, nomatter what you do, PvP will always be worse then a zero-sum game, and even in a zero-sum game, only the best really profit. Knowing everything that was destroyed is not realistic. You could keep killmails, killmails are fine, its the meta gaming of killboards that cause trouble. but ban killboards with out removing killmail... thats harder to do. Adding in more money to the game is not a problem, people who only pvp dont add much money to the game anyway. IF they can stop doing their pve-money-making activities to pvp all the time there wont be extra money coming in at the end of things. And no, to prevent exploits the rewards would be less than you can kill for insurance. This would not be a 'kill one guy and make a billion isk' type of deal. A battleship would have a base value of say, 20mil. A t1 frigate say.. 100k. T2 stuff would say, 50mil for a command ship. Reward would be based not on ship cost, but on how hard it is to kill something. It would just be another time = isk trickle If you increase the value of mods or their drop chance all you will get is even more high sec suicide ganking. That can be profitable, but wouldn't it be more fun to actually.. fight things?
Theo Samaritan Gallente Pheonix Reborn	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Venkul Mul Totally wrong. PvP remove material wealth from the EVE world but inject isk through insurance. A isk sink should remove isk from the game, PvP inject them. insurance doesnt cover the 200million isk of mods i have on my 50million isk ship. -------------- Templars do not tank Jita so well without a steady supply of Cake.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.09 13:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Theo Samaritan insurance doesnt cover the 200million isk of mods i have on my 50million isk ship. I'm sure you bought your 200M ISK of mods from NPCs instead of players, right? When talking about the economy, whenever you buy 200M of mods from a player, you did not remove 200M from the economy. You removed 200M from your wallet and it went to someone else's. Same with your ship cost... I thought everyone understood that part at least. Rifters!
S1ckness Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:02:00 - [37] Hmm. I typically fly a rapier, which was an expensive initial investment but I've made a ton off of module drops. Easily double my ship cost. I think it just takes a lot of care in choosing your targets, and knowing when to bug out. I also think flying in t1 ships is viable... however I typically fit them with t2 gear. Not long ago I killed an arazu in my stabber (worth about 12m after fittings and insurance payout) that dropped 3x Muon damps. I sold them for 45m. I think piracy just requires a constant state of alertness to avoid getting ganked. After that it's pretty easy tbh. :)
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:10:00 - [38] I don't think there's any game changes that have really stopped people making money from PvP, it's just that as players get older they try new things and fly different ships that may not make them as much money. The exception would be the much lower value of T2 loot now, but as it costs less to lose a T2 ship it kind of balances out. For example, I used to make money from PvP. I started out doing piracy in T1 fitted frigs. There might be less viable targets than when you're flying bigger ships, but any loss is minimal and a piece of decent named or T2 loot was worth 10 new Kestrels to me. More recently I was doing empire wars in gangs of 3 or 4 people. We only rarely lost ships because it was easy to choose our targets and there was money to be made because the loot was split between so few people. I don't make much money from PvP now. I generally fly in gangs of about 10 people or more. The more people in the gang, the higher the chance that at least one of us dies in a fight, so loot is going to go to reimburse them before anything else. Even if it's not being used to reimburse people or to fill the corp hangars, 50 million in loot split between 10 people is only 5 each. I could go back to doing a more profitable form of PvP, I probably will at some point, but currently I don't want to. You perceive it as the game changing, but it might be your playing style. --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:15:00 - [39] It's not so much about what you kill as what you LOSE that determines if you can make a profit from piracy. Ransoming a dread for a few bill is great. Unless of course you're losing t2 cruisers every other day, which tends to eat into the proceeds. When I lose a ship I don't think, "damn, just got killed. I suck again", I think, "bollards, there goes my profit margin for THIS week!". So far I'm doing alright. Paranoia does more than save lives people, it can save you isk! "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Chrono Logic	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:35:00 - [40] Edited by: Chrono Logic on 09/01/2008 14:39:08 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Theo Samaritan insurance doesnt cover the 200million isk of mods i have on my 50million isk ship. I'm sure you bought your 200M ISK of mods from NPCs instead of players, right? When talking about the economy, whenever you buy 200M of mods from a player, you did not remove 200M from the economy. You removed 200M from your wallet and it went to someone else's. Same with your ship cost... I thought everyone understood that part at least. Just have to butt in on this... When your ship blows up (PvP or otherwise), the economy ISK loss is "Ship purchase value" + "Insurance price" + "Destroyed modules&cargo". The total ISK gain is "Insurance payout". I'm not very experienced in the world of EVE, however I am rather confident in that the loss almost always will be bigger than the ISK gain. Even though players made the ship or the modules, something was at some point paid to a NPC facility to enable the possibility to produce these. Also, a big portion of the items are bought from NPC's directly. Remember, this is a question of how much ISK is taken out of the economy vs. how much is injected into the economy on a PvP kill. Which player owns which module at what time and which players money is transferred to and from whom at any given time has nothing to do with the games total economy. Chrono Logic Newbie extraordinaire
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:37:00 - [41] How to make PvP more profitable? Resellable kill rights via contract. Discuss.
Oku Kee'lus	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Chrono Logic When talking about the economy, whenever you buy 200M of mods from a player, you did not remove 200M from the economy. You removed 200M from your wallet and it went to someone else's. Same with your ship cost... I thought everyone understood that part at least. Just have to butt in on this... When your ship blows up (PvP or otherwise), the economy ISK loss is "Ship purchase value" + "Insurance price" + "Destroyed modules&cargo". The total ISK gain is "Insurance payout". I'm not very experienced in the world of EVE, however I am rather confident in that the loss almost always will be bigger than the ISK gain. Even though players made the ship or the modules, something was at some point paid to a NPC facility to enable the possibility to produce these. Also, a big portion of the items are bought from NPC's directly. Remember, this is a question of how much ISK is taken out of the economy vs. how much is injected into the economy on a PvP kill. Which player owns which module at what time and which players money is transferred to and from whom at any given time has nothing to do with the games total economy. No... "the economy ISK loss is "Ship purchase value" + "Insurance price" + "Destroyed modules&cargo". Nope. "Ship purchase value" and "Destroyed modules&cargo" was transfered from your wallet to another players wallet. So it's still in-game. It's just not your ISK anymore. The only ISK removed from the economy is the ISK you pay the DED since they are NPCs and remove it from the eceonomy. The catch is, you get more back from the same NPC than you pay. So the insurance actually generates more ISK than it removes. Unless you manage to keep your ship for a prolonged period of time and renew the insurance so that when you finally lose it, you've paid a combined total that's greater than the single payout you receive. In short; when money leaves your wallet, it is only an ISK sink if it goes to a NPC that removes it from the economy.
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.09 15:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Chrono Logic Just have to butt in on this... When your ship blows up (PvP or otherwise), the economy ISK loss is "Ship purchase value" + "Insurance price" + "Destroyed modules&cargo". The total ISK gain is "Insurance payout". Just to clarify: ships are made out of minerals, which are either mined or generated via reprocessed loot. Neither of these methods are ISK faucets (ie, no ISK is directly being added to the economy). However, there is an inherent ISK value associated once they are built via the Insurance mechanism. When a ship is destroyed, lost are the (non-isk) minerals and the (isk) manufacturing fees. As these fees are generally less than even the minimum default insurance payout, there is always an isk faucet with regards to ship loss due to insurance payouts. The loss of minerals does NOT effect the amount of isk in the system at all -- it only serves to stimulate trade by creating demand for more minerals and thus raises the market price for those minerals. A smart miner who cannot get a fair value on the price of his minerals can manufacture a ship, insure it, and self destruct it to generate cash if the insurance premium is less than the sum market value of the components.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.01.09 15:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Alz Shado How to make PvP more profitable? Resellable kill rights via contract. Discuss. I...like it.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 15:40:00 - [45] We all know that there is a bounty system in place but there could be a statutory bounty for player ships. This neednÆt be a great deal it could be the lowest insurance pay off or something similar. This would be a way of returning some revenue for the pvp players that take the risk in engaging in this activity. Any thoughts? www.eve-players.com
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:35:00 - [46] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Ransom And bounty hunting. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join!
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Alz Shado How to make PvP more profitable? Resellable kill rights via contract. Discuss. I...like it. That would be making it more profitable for the loser. --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
Alz Shado Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.09 17:49:00 - [48] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Alz Shado How to make PvP more profitable? Resellable kill rights via contract. Discuss. I...like it. That would be making it more profitable for the loser. Not if you want do some concord-sanctioned ganking in empire without a wardec.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.11 19:20:00 - [49] learn to ransom Trashed sig, Shark was here
banannagirl Minmatar The U-B-H-C	Posted - 2008.01.11 19:38:00 - [50] man ive been pirating in a vexor with tech two lights and tech two drones for years now...! Those barges go down like eggs and bacon with 30 million isk crystals on a good day. 0.4 0.1 is a blast .. for you ....! regards BG Link removed, advertising services for real world money is not allowed on the forums - Wrangler
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.01.11 19:59:00 - [51] I'm making good money with pirating in me Rifter so uhm, I don't see the problem :)
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.11 20:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Tzar'rim I'm making good money with pirating in me Rifter so uhm, I don't see the problem :) People who pirate in 300M+ ISK ships have problems, since they require a big number of kills/ransoms to pay off their ships and are more prone to getting blobbed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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