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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.09 12:08:00 -
[1]
I had a few conversations over the last few day's, and it may interest a few people for a debate.
My generation has never known a world without the internet, the PC is as much a staple as the radio to the previous and boundries are breaking down as society evolves. I mean that taking Eve as an example, Americans are intemingiling intimatly with Europeans. There is also the anominity that the internet offers, so perhaps in a decade or so, that contact will still continue and exist, to the point where that ideology itself becomes a nation.
That idea probably smells like a load of **** to older people, but considering the lack of isolation on the internet it will probably end up affecting politics a few years down the line - Atlantic Commonwealth anyone?
It just is getting to the point where I can't see the point in the current political structure a few years down the line, the EU is on the rise and the US on the decline. Not much ultimatly seperates our cultures and a state only has value if it can protect it's nation.
~Nyron
 Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.09 14:16:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Kirjava
I had a few conversations over the last few day's, and it may interest a few people for a debate.
My generation has never known a world without the internet, the PC is as much a staple as the radio to the previous and boundries are breaking down as society evolves. I mean that taking Eve as an example, Americans are intemingiling intimatly with Europeans. There is also the anominity that the internet offers, so perhaps in a decade or so, that contact will still continue and exist, to the point where that ideology itself becomes a nation.
That idea probably smells like a load of **** to older people, but considering the lack of isolation on the internet it will probably end up affecting politics a few years down the line - Atlantic Commonwealth anyone?
It just is getting to the point where I can't see the point in the current political structure a few years down the line, the EU is on the rise and the US on the decline. Not much ultimatly seperates our cultures and a state only has value if it can protect it's nation.
I agree, being dual UK/US citizen I have noticed this as well! The only problem is the timeframe. I think we are going to have to wait for the "Old Guard" to die off first, so say...about 30 to 60 years.
They have a strangle hold on everything and are not about to let it go. That being said, it really depends on who takes over with what ideology.
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
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CCP Whisper
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Posted - 2008.01.09 14:25:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hooch Flux
I think we are going to have to wait for the "Old Guard" to die off first, so say...about 30 to 60 years.
They have a strangle hold on everything and are not about to let it go. That being said, it really depends on who takes over with what ideology.
You forget that the old guard usually manages to teach the next generation a lot of their views, both in terms of political stances and cultural norms. So it can take two or three generations for this sort of change to make itself felt. It is an interesting process to watch though, especially for those of us like me who are old enough to remember the world before the internet (or even fax machines) but young enough to have embraced it in all its glory. 
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.09 15:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Hooch Flux
I think we are going to have to wait for the "Old Guard" to die off first, so say...about 30 to 60 years.
They have a strangle hold on everything and are not about to let it go. That being said, it really depends on who takes over with what ideology.
You forget that the old guard usually manages to teach the next generation a lot of their views, both in terms of political stances and cultural norms. So it can take two or three generations for this sort of change to make itself felt. It is an interesting process to watch though, especially for those of us like me who are old enough to remember the world before the internet (or even fax machines) but young enough to have embraced it in all its glory.
Yeah, they do like to leave as much of a footprint as they can. I figured about 30-60 years as being a generation or two, but maybe that is being a bit quick.
I can go back before Internet became a public phenomena, not quite fax though (showing your age ). I was about 8 when the old "ZX Spectrum" came out.
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Max Godsnottlingson
Amarr
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2008.01.10 00:34:00 -
[5]
While I agree with the OP. If nothing else the internet is pulling us closer together.
However, as pointed out, the Old Guard will put up a fight.
I see in the UK there is already a big outcry about a British TV ad, with British actors which uses the 'Zee' letter and not 'Zed'
Yes, I'm an old fart, I'll always be a 'zed' man, but I can find a hell of a lot better things to get worked up about then how something is pronounced.
Oh and yes. Of course, it's all teh internets fault.
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pwnedgato
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Posted - 2008.01.10 00:56:00 -
[6]
Edited by: pwnedgato on 10/01/2008 00:56:40
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
While I agree with the OP. If nothing else the internet is pulling us closer together.
However, as pointed out, the Old Guard will put up a fight.
I see in the UK there is already a big outcry about a British TV ad, with British actors which uses the 'Zee' letter and not 'Zed'
Yes, I'm an old fart, I'll always be a 'zed' man, but I can find a hell of a lot better things to get worked up about then how something is pronounced.
Oh and yes. Of course, it's all teh internets fault.
Zed does sound better when speaking about landing zones. el zed just sounds better than el zee
Originally by: Crumplecorn
These is a forum for this.
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Ninketsu
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Posted - 2008.01.10 08:02:00 -
[7]
What is the Zee and Zed business about?
______________________________________
Gobling Artillery
1.Find a cousin.
2.Load the cousin in the cannon.
3.Find another cousin. |
Thuul'Khalat
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.10 08:56:00 -
[8]
Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead
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Miniturret
Amarr
Rum Runners Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:15:00 -
[9]
I tend to try and stay out of debates such as this but i feel i must put my 2 cents in.
I agree with the OP the US is on a decline, but we will never fail in line with the EU for a good long time. Knowing the EU and some of it's ways of thinking (read that as guns are bad m'kay, your not allowed to have them for your own safety. than how am I suppose to protect myself from some bad guy with a gun pointed at my head? call the cops m'kay they will protect you. 15 minutes later the police arrive to a murder victim. gee i wonder how that happened?)
There are plenty of us "rednecks" who are what you would consider armed and dangerous. we go out hunting, we go out target shooting. we generally have thousands of rounds of ammunition for each rifle and shotgun. we have inflitrated the miltary and they have taught us even more naughty things to do. this is something that we pass on from generation to generation. I will make sure my children know how to use a rifle and know the proper way to use one. not what they show in the movies. go ahead and try to take me over and tell me what to do. you will be able to tell me what to do as your placing my body into the ground after i've taken a good many of you with me. I know quite a few others who think the same way.
We are not someone to be messed with any time soon. we will rebel again if you try and take us over.
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Compiled List of Shops and Stores |
Thuul'Khalat
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:19:00 -
[10]
Never stop to think that the ebil man is there with a gun to your head partly beacuse it's so easy for him to get hold of one?
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Miniturret
Amarr
Rum Runners Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:47:00 -
[11]
Then tell me why if great britian has completely banned gun ownership the rate of violent crime using guns is on the increase there? looking at some of the safest states in the us to live are the ones in which gun ownership is not limited. why is that? because the violent criminals know that people will stop them with just as deadly force as they can bring.
It doesn't matter where you are, guns will find their way into the hands of criminals because of the black markets. What I am trying to say though is a lot of americans enjoy their freedom to own such weapons and we will fight to keep them. Yes I am a proud member of the NRA. I have willingly taken all the classes I can take. I know how to safely operate a rifle, shotgun, and pistol. I also know the laws of my state and god help anyone that steps over the threshold of my front door without my permission.
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Compiled List of Shops and Stores |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:58:00 -
[12]
It is on the rise because some clever people started building airt rifles powerful enough to do the job of a gas propelant or building their own guns. Guns is an issue I don't realy kniow enough about to give an arguement, but I personaly beleive that British guns should be available with enough of a good reputation but the US should have more restrictions so not every person who is just going to kill someone is going to get one.
I am not talking about invasion Mini, I am talking about the dissolvement of the EU and US and a new country in it's place. When you say Americans enjoy their freedom - just remember that you are not the only country to be free - but a balance between freedom and common sense must be maintained - and is in the USA, Anarchism is the only true freedom in many sences. From both of our countries, we have the same base that is rooted in ancient Rome and Greece and also from European colonisation, so we would be able to make a reunion of the Colonies and the Coloniser work due to common herritage and global outlook.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Miniturret
I tend to try and stay out of debates such as this but i feel i must put my 2 cents in.
I agree with the OP the US is on a decline, but we will never fail in line with the EU for a good long time. Knowing the EU and some of it's ways of thinking (read that as guns are bad m'kay, your not allowed to have them for your own safety. than how am I suppose to protect myself from some bad guy with a gun pointed at my head? call the cops m'kay they will protect you. 15 minutes later the police arrive to a murder victim. gee i wonder how that happened?)
There are plenty of us "rednecks" who are what you would consider armed and dangerous. we go out hunting, we go out target shooting. we generally have thousands of rounds of ammunition for each rifle and shotgun. we have inflitrated the miltary and they have taught us even more naughty things to do. this is something that we pass on from generation to generation. I will make sure my children know how to use a rifle and know the proper way to use one. not what they show in the movies. go ahead and try to take me over and tell me what to do. you will be able to tell me what to do as your placing my body into the ground after i've taken a good many of you with me. I know quite a few others who think the same way.
We are not someone to be messed with any time soon. we will rebel again if you try and take us over.
It's actually the UK that has those firearms laws, a lot of other states within the EU allow ownership of guns, and if your a farmer in UK you can own a shotgun.
Well if he's allready got a gun to your head it wont make any difference whether you have a gun or not, it's much easier to squeeze a trigger than to pull a sidearm.(But you would know that!)
Most criminals don't use legal firearms anyways, they are usually procured through illegal means.
I don't think the OP was suggesting that the US are going to fall in line with the EU, I think he was talking about a mutual thing.
Being trained in firearms and being trained in combat are two very different things! If all those students at Virginia Tech had guns it would have turned into a complete bloodbath, everyone would have started shooting everyone. Even the police admit that they had trouble working out what was going on!
(We don't have to defeat you "Rednecks" anyways, like the Royal Family, imbreeding will eventually take you out...)
...Joke by the way.
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Daram Thakk'ar
Minmatar
343rd Mining Division
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:04:00 -
[14]
You mean finding your wife at the family reunion ISN'T a good idea?? 
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Miniturret
Amarr
Rum Runners Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:10:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Miniturret on 10/01/2008 10:12:20
Kirjava,
I am using the issue of gun ownership as one point. I know this point well and have researched it quite frequently. I just don't see the US population willingly going back being colonies. We rebelled against it once. We will rebel against it again. Might not be right away but there will be those of us who will fight it. I know we all come from the same history of rome and greek. And we must look to the past to protect the future.
Yes i'll freely admit I do not like where my government is heading. That is why i'm actively finding candidates that similar views as myself and I will vote for them to gain office. At the moment that is all I can do without completely rebelling against my own government. But that is not something that I see far from happening either. I do see another civil war in the making.
Yet another point that I could go with is the freedom of religion that we have here, the freedom of speech, the freedom to elect and evict someone to/from power (IE the president, or any member of congress.) List goes on. Just read the Bill of Rights and you will understand why I fight for freedom. You will also understand why I do not believe that the US and the EU will form together into one entity. We have enjoy those freedoms here.
-=EDIT=-
If I divorce my wife, will she still be my sister?
yes i can take a joke
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Compiled List of Shops and Stores |
Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Miniturret
Then tell me why if great britian has completely banned gun ownership the rate of violent crime using guns is on the increase there? looking at some of the safest states in the us to live are the ones in which gun ownership is not limited. why is that? because the violent criminals know that people will stop them with just as deadly force as they can bring.
It doesn't matter where you are, guns will find their way into the hands of criminals because of the black markets. What I am trying to say though is a lot of americans enjoy their freedom to own such weapons and we will fight to keep them. Yes I am a proud member of the NRA. I have willingly taken all the classes I can take. I know how to safely operate a rifle, shotgun, and pistol. I also know the laws of my state and god help anyone that steps over the threshold of my front door without my permission.
It probably has more to do with population density in the areas you are talking about, big firearms loveing states tend to be like Nebraska, Montana (Just examples).
Have you actually read the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights?
"Right to bear arms!"
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Doesn't say anything about an individuals "Right to bear arms", but the NRA like to ignore that bit!
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Thuul'Khalat
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:12:00 -
[17]
Uhm... we have those here aswell :p
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Miniturret
Amarr
Rum Runners Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:14:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Miniturret on 10/01/2008 10:15:55
hooch I do not mean to belittle you but did you actually read what you posted?
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
let me bold the part that says "The right of the People"
-=EDIT=- most of the gun ban groups tend to ignore that little segment of the 2nd amendment. It is worded just like the rest of the bill of rights. If you void that amendment you void the rest of it.
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Compiled List of Shops and Stores |
Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Miniturret
If I divorce my wife, will she still be my sister?
yes i can take a joke
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Hooch Flux
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.01.10 10:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hooch Flux on 10/01/2008 10:15:12
Originally by: Miniturret
hooch I do not mean to belittle you but did you actually read what you posted?
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
let me bold the part that says "The right of the People"
Yes that is the Plural use of "People" taken in context with the rest of the statement!
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:18:00 -
[21]
Mini - we have the same freedoms here, I only used the word colony to show that at once, we were one state. Sicne the internet and mass communication became commonplace, I was suggesting a possible merger, mutual and it's peoples as equals. Gratned the EU has a higher population but 1 person is 1 person regardless of geographical location.
Think about is as something like the US but encompassing the EU and Canada, I neither know nor realy care where the capital would be or what currency it would be (best guess lock 1 Euro = 1 USD and make a new currancy to replace both). I personaly like the name Atlantic Commonwealth, as thats the aim and where we are.
It will be a very bad thing if the US decends to Civil war - I can guarentee EU peacekeeping forces stepping in should that happen, but I doubt it would ever get to that point.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Miniturret
Amarr
Rum Runners Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:38:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Miniturret on 10/01/2008 10:40:57
Kirjava - yes i understand that the internet has blended a lot of those defining qualities that we had that separated us. But our lines of thinking are still on different tracks. Which is why I do not see the US and EU forming together into a new entity.
If the US does break down into a civil war, EU peace keepers would be the worst thing to do. It would unite us again against those "invaders" of our country. At least long enough to fight them off and than we would resume our fighting.
edit - Hooch, the second amendment was placed there to protect the people from the government. So that we could rise up against it if the government ever "sold us out" so to say. When the bill of rights was being drafted it the people of the states did not trust the federal government nor did they truely trust their state governments. Thus the reason for the freedom to own Arms.
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Compiled List of Shops and Stores |
Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:49:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hooch Flux on 10/01/2008 10:49:32
Originally by: Miniturret
If the US does break down into a civil war, EU peace keepers would be the worst thing to do. It would unite us again against those "invaders" of our country. At least long enough to fight them off and than we would resume our fighting.
I have to agree with this!
Originally by: Miniturret
edit - Hooch, the second amendment was placed there to protect the people from the government. So that we could rise up against it if the government ever "sold us out" so to say. When the bill of rights was being drafted it the people of the states did not trust the federal government nor did they truely trust their state governments. Thus the reason for the freedom to own Arms.
Exactly, thats why it gives the individual States the right to create an armed Militia!
In theory, the State governments can ban the individual ownership of weapons (Firearms)!
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:53:00 -
[24]
Of course it's bad, EU takes the West, the US is in Civil war so would not be able to present a united front, god help us if China starts an invasion of the East coast.
In essence, I think an American Civil war in todays political climate would ammount to the third world war.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Miniturret
Amarr
Rum Runners Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:57:00 -
[25]
Hooch - I have nothing against each state banning weapons if they want. I know there will always be states that I can move too which will not restrict my freedom. I am against a total ban on firearms by the federal government much like Great Britain has. Which the UN is pushing for as well.
Kirjava - if we break down into a civil war, we would fight amongst ourselves (much as we always have in way or another) and when someone tried to step in we would unite against those. Much like a fight amongst family. It is ok for the family to fight but god help anyone who tries to step in.
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Compiled List of Shops and Stores |
Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Miniturret
Hooch - I have nothing against each state banning weapons if they want. I know there will always be states that I can move too which will not restrict my freedom. I am against a total ban on firearms by the federal government much like Great Britain has. Which the UN is pushing for as well.
I think here in the UK we don't really have a reason to individually own firearms, except possibly for sport, and around here most of that involves shotguns. You can still go hunting in the uk it's just heavily regulated. But in the UK their is no real logical reason to carry around a firearm just for the sake of it.
Who cares what the UN thinks, they can't enforce anything without the individual States consent anyways, so I think you have nothing to worry about.
I personally grew up around the US military as my father was in the USAF, I had firearms training with the "Explorers" and later with the M.O.D who I used to work for. I do enjoy going down to the range myself every now and then, but I have no need to personally own a weapon where I am now. I'm sure if I moved to the US I would prabably eventually buy a gun for the same purpose, maybe hunting as well, But not to carry around.
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Shinnen
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hooch Flux
[
I think here in the UK we don't really have a reason to individually own firearms, except possibly for sport, and around here most of that involves shotguns. You can still go hunting in the uk it's just heavily regulated. But in the UK their is no real logical reason to carry around a firearm just for the sake of it.
I'm going to say this from a 100% politically neutral point of view:
Weapons for civilians exist to protect them from the government. That's why the second amendment is in the US constitution.
--
Banned since 2005, back by popular demand! They said it wouldn't happen!! |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:19:00 -
[28]
This is a large difference between European and American politics, as quoted from Sicko by Michal Moore, said by a European and is fact.
"In America the people fear the government, in Europe the government fears the people."
We don't need guns to get our point accross to our politicians.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:22:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Hooch Flux on 10/01/2008 14:22:07
Originally by: Shinnen
Originally by: Hooch Flux
[
I think here in the UK we don't really have a reason to individually own firearms, except possibly for sport, and around here most of that involves shotguns. You can still go hunting in the uk it's just heavily regulated. But in the UK their is no real logical reason to carry around a firearm just for the sake of it.
I'm going to say this from a 100% politically neutral point of view:
Weapons for civilians exist to protect them from the government. That's why the second amendment is in the US constitution.
And if things got that bad do you think it would matter if you had the right? I honestly wouldn't care if the Government said I had the right if they were the enemy!
And What Kirjava said!
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
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