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All skills to level 6

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Leaping Tiger	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:18:00 - [1] Does anyone else think it would be fun if CCP made it possible to train up to level 6 in all skills? I'm suggesting to continue ramping up the training time as well, of course. Nothing's free. Any particular skill would only add very incrementally to a pilots effectiveness and would take foorrrreeeeevvvveeeerrrr to train, but it could really be a way for a pilot to specialize in a niche role by training only a couple of skills to six, but in total could make a difference. It would also make a nice SP sink for people who only ever want to fly a particular ship / mine a specific mineral / build a particular widget better than anyone else and who don't plan on running the entire universe. I wouldn't want to see a level 6 skill as a requirement for something, however.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:30:00 - [2] L5 is enough. A lot of stuff would become way too powerfull if L6s were possible. On second thought, wait. I want L10 skills. No, make that L20 skills. You know, so I can use any of the amarr boats at L10 ship skill with rapid fire L20 to insta-pop anything while also maxing out my capacitor at the same time. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Leaping Tiger	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:13:00 - [3] Originally by: Akita T I want L10 skills. No, make that L20 skills. I'm not surprised I'm getting trolled, but you do realize that to train a rank 1 skill to level 6 would require approximately 35 days and level 10, which I'm NOT advocating, would take more than 128 years (I've done the math only approximately on that one.) The thing is, if you maintain the regular progression of training time which CCP has installed as I'm advocating there are only so many SP's in the day and therefore only so many skills one could EVER train to six for the 2% to 5% bonus per skill. So if you wanna' insta-pop somebody by training Surgical Strike to level 20 and gain that extra 45% damage it'll only take you 1.3 Billion (with a "B") years. Yes, I've done the math. Good luck.
Mizerik Grettistak	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:51:00 - [4] Its not the added effect of just one skill. All skills work in tandum with others. It would be simply replacing a mod with a skill thus making your ship more powerful and unbalanced for those old players who have nothing better to train vice the new player who has 800K sp's. this will go next to the training que and two skills at one time threads :(
Jak Fields	Posted - 2008.01.11 06:45:00 - [5] Just for the sake of conversation, I could see this being semi-do-able in a limited context. And I stress the fact that it would be highly limited. I picture maybe a system like other MMOGs do with giving vet rewards for subscription time increments. For example, after every year of PAID game time, you get the opportunity to give ONE skill a sixth level. The skill must already be at level five and once you make your choice, it cannot EVER be undone or reassigned. Level 6 is the LIMIT, so if you play for 3 years, you have to do this to three separate skills (ie, you can't take a single skill to lvl 8 after 3 years). And, of course, making the selection only grants the ability to train the sixth level - the level is not given automatically, and it must still be trained with the appropriate time constraints. I'm not necessarily saying what I said is a good idea, but I am simply providing the only situation where a sixth level could even be considered.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries	Posted - 2008.01.11 07:05:00 - [6] There are some skills that are not usable at 'Level 6', or would end up making for some...broken mechanics. Drones - Save for carriers and the Guardian Vexor, nothing can launch 6 drones. Tactical Shield Manipulation - a level 6 would have the shields absorbing damage even when the shields were at or below 0 Production Efficiency - Yeah, we can now make a module for fewer minerals than we can reprocess said modules for. Cloaking Devices - with CovOps ships, we could end up target locking before dropping cloak No, you can keep your 'Level 6', thank you. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Malcanis 5 finger discounteers	Posted - 2008.01.11 10:03:00 - [7] "Cloaking Devices - with CovOps ships, we could end up target locking before dropping cloak" wistful sigh CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Worick Dragon Clan Guardian Federation	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:18:00 - [8] I'm thinking on easy things like "Engineering VI" or "Electronics VI". Oh man, that would make a few broken shipsetups possible ;)

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:03:00 - [9] Train to Lv6 with a 10% chance of the skill reaching Lv6 and 90% risk of having to restart the training again Secure 3rd party service ■ the Love project

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.01.11 15:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Leaping Tiger I'm not surprised I'm getting trolled It's not trolling, it's reduction to the absurd, to prove a point. Like others bothered to show you examples of stuff that's already "broken" at L6, not L10/L20. The most clear examples would be Production Efficiency VI (combined with perfect refine skills) -> generate minerals out of nowhere from building/reprocessing cycles. The next "obvious breaking" would be at level 7, with logistics ships (gain capacitor when repairing somebody instead of losing some). And so on and so forth, with more and more "game breaking" things occuring as you get higher in possible levels. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.

Scel Eratus	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Leaping Tiger I'm not surprised I'm getting trolled It's not trolling, it's reduction to the absurd, to prove a point. Like others bothered to show you examples of stuff that's already "broken" at L6, not L10/L20. The most clear examples would be Production Efficiency VI (combined with perfect refine skills) -> generate minerals out of nowhere from building/reprocessing cycles. The next "obvious breaking" would be at level 7, with logistics ships (gain capacitor when repairing somebody instead of losing some). And so on and so forth, with more and more "game breaking" things occuring as you get higher in possible levels. It's pretty close to trolling. He advocated 1 level higher, and you keep throwing arguments aimed at level 7 or higher, or at the few skills that couldn't be taken to a possible level 6 due to their design. It is an interesting idea, but I personally don't see it happening. It's a change, and people hate change. It's the hatred of change that fills tip cups, junk drawers, and Salvation Army buckets.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.11 17:53:00 - [12] Wouldn't mind skills like advanced warhead upgrades and advances surgical strike. Maybe a rank 15 skill that adds 1% to damage. Or a ship-specific skill. Throrax manouvering: 10-20 rank skill that adds 1-2% damage per level when flying a thorax. Would be nice for people who'd like to further specialize themselves.
Leaping Tiger	Posted - 2008.01.11 19:35:00 - [13] Edited by: Leaping Tiger on 11/01/2008 19:38:15 I guess what I'm really attempting to address is that as everyone progresses through their accumulation of SPs we all begin to look the same because level 5 isn't difficult to reach in skills until you get to rank 6 or so. Characters can obviously be differentiated by profession, but within each profession a character could differentiate if we had access to skills which couldn't possibly all be trained or even want to be trained. For example, as a pilot I can max my skills for flying a frigate or assault frigate fairly quickly. Then my only choice is to move to a cruiser. A cruiser only adds a few more skills that I didn't already max on the AF so I've trained Amarr cruiser to 5 very quickly. Specialize in some bigger guns and soon I'm forced to move to a bigger ship again. But what if I really like to fly my HAC. If level 6 skills were broadly available (maybe only a subset instead of every skill) I could spend forever grinding through them to make my piloting of my HAC infinitesimally better. Alternatively, some new very high rank skills like Signal Obfuscation rank 10 gives 2% reduction of signature radius or Advanced Warhead Upgrades rank 12 1% bonus to missile damage. As it stands now, all of the highest ranking skills only apply to people foolish enough to want to fly titans.
Kell Braugh Caldari letter of marque Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.01.11 20:22:00 - [14] Edited by: Kell Braugh on 11/01/2008 20:26:32 Edited by: Kell Braugh on 11/01/2008 20:25:12 Originally by: Worick I'm thinking on easy things like "Engineering VI" or "Electronics VI". Oh man, that would make a few broken shipsetups possible ;) Maybe the fact you have 'broken ship setups' is that fact that you are trying to overpower a ship. No one ever said all setups of all ships is possible. Quote: Maybe a rank 15 skill that adds 1% to damage. And who in their right mind would waste the time to train that? Wow, your 500 dmg hit with that missile is now a 505 dmg hit, impressive, thats an additional 35 dmg per volley with 7 launchers, impressive! EFT screen shots are NOT an accurate example of a ship's abilities.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Kell Braugh Quote: Maybe a rank 15 skill that adds 1% to damage. And who in their right mind would waste the time to train that? Wow, your 500 dmg hit with that missile is now a 505 dmg hit, impressive, thats an additional 35 dmg per volley with 7 launchers, impressive! I would without hesitation. Some people rather want to fly few ships good than many, half assed.
Chen Chura	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:00:00 - [16] Edited by: Chen Chura on 11/01/2008 22:11:22 Edited by: Chen Chura on 11/01/2008 22:04:09 Formula Level X in a Rank 1 skill requires a total of 10002^(2.5X-4.5) sp 1250 21414 38000 445255 5256000 61448155 78192000 846340950 9262144000 101482910400 118388608000 1247453132812 13268435456000 141518500249988 158589934592000 1648592007999617 17274877906944000 181554944255987730 198796093022208000 2049758216191607600 will L20 Rapid Fire would be compleatly unbalanced. it would take a character with 30 perception and 30 willpower a scant 4,204,647,264.40 years to train it. hardly within the realm of possibility. just a point of reference. Level 8 in a rank 1 skill takes 2 years at 45sp / minute. but then Level 7 in a rank 6 skill takes 2.06 years at 45sp / minute. =========================================================== so doing so would ensure a broken game in 2 years. kinda like planned obsolecence. not wise any instance where a cost becomes zero or negative would break the game.
Vessper The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:21:00 - [17] Actually, the Lvl6 figures turn out some quite interesting calculations...well, for me anyway As well as proving that that training to Lvl6 will present some large timescale problems with the higher rank skills, Lvl6 will undoubtedly cause problems with a lot of the skills present today. CCP designed the skill system to not go beyond Lvl5 and anything beyond will require a rewrite of the fundamentals. Simply looking at things like covops and recon ships would break the system and there are other skills as mentioned by those above. IMO, to introduce more specialized skills would be more practical than increasing existing skill level maximums. -------------- EveHQ Character App \| Item Database
Dr Caymus Gallente Applied Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.01.12 00:00:00 - [18] Edited by: Dr Caymus on 12/01/2008 00:03:03 I love the idea!
Janus Ovellian Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.01.12 01:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Dr Caymus Edited by: Dr Caymus on 12/01/2008 00:09:39 I love the idea! I was about to say... I could have sworn I'd read this thread before. :) Interesting times await...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:26:00 - [20] Edited by: Akita T on 13/01/2008 15:28:27 Originally by: Chen Chura [...] 61448155 78192000 [...] Level 7 in a rank 6 skill takes 2.06 years at 45sp / minute. And a measly 104 days for a rank 1 level 6 skill to upgrade to level 7. Or roughly 122 days from L5 to L7. Now imagine how many insane setups you could get with Engineering, Electronics and Weapons Upgrades to 7, plus Advanced Weapons Upgrades to 6. Also, just add L7 controlled bursts and L6 in ship command for an Amarr ship, after L7 energy system operation and L6 energy management, on top of L7 rapid firing and gunnery. The "granting negatives" skills that go past L5 are those causing real problems even from L6, and at L7 it's a lot more. _____ The "lift L5 barrier" is a doomed idea. Just releasing NEW skills that "continue" existing skills, and having L5 in one or several others is the way to go. Hmm, isn't that what's happening nowadays anyway ? P.S. Granted, though, there's not THAT much more to learn in sections like engineering/electronics, and let's not even speak of mining and other non-combat-ish things. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.

Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:10:00 - [21] The problem is while higher ranked skills would take an unholy amount of time to get to level 6 there are multiple rank 1 and 2 skills with insane bonuses. Engineering, electronics, energy systems operations, drones, etc. This would do nothing more than increase the gap between new players and vets. PAK is recruiting!
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:10:00 - [22] The problem is while higher ranked skills would take an unholy amount of time to get to level 6 there are multiple rank 1 and 2 skills with insane bonuses. Engineering, electronics, energy systems operations, drones, etc. This would do nothing more than increase the gap between new players and vets. PAK is recruiting!
Leaping Tiger	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 13/01/2008 15:28:27 And a measly 104 days for a rank 1 level 6 skill to upgrade to level 7. Or roughly 122 days from L5 to L7. Now imagine how many insane setups you could get with Engineering, Electronics and Weapons Upgrades to 7, plus Advanced Weapons Upgrades to 6. Also, just add L7 controlled bursts and L6 in ship command for an Amarr ship, after L7 energy system operation and L6 energy management, on top of L7 rapid firing and gunnery. The "granting negatives" skills that go past L5 are those causing real problems even from L6, and at L7 it's a lot more. First of all, the OP never mentions a level 7. Nextly if you wanted to raise Engineering, Electronics, Weapons Upgrades, Controlled Bursts, Energy System Operation, Rapid Firing, Gunnery, Advanced Weapons Upgrades, Ship Command and Energy Management to 6, it'd take you 21 + 21 + 42 + 42 + 21 + 42 + 21 + 124 + 21 + 62 = 437 days. In that time a noob can train all of those skills and many, many more from 1 to 5. Which means said noob is gaining on the old-timers 5 times faster than said old-timers are receding. In addition, the 437 days you've just invested only get you 5% here or 2% there and don't amount to a whole lot of pow pow. Enough to make a diffence? Not any single skill, but in total yes. That's the point of investing WELL OVER A YEAR of training. Alternatively - and to emphasize that there is a trade-off for these level 6 skills - old-timer guy could train for a titan and do a decent job of it with those FOUR HUNDRED THIRTY SEVEN days of not training anything but those few skills, but I would rather fly a smaller ship better than everyone else versus a larger ship only as well as everyone else. _________________________ . . . but that's just me.
VictorNemesis Gallente Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:11:00 - [24] sounds good to me
VictorNemesis Gallente Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:16:00 - [25] ignore my last post - silly me
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:20:00 - [26] Let's put it this way... they bother implementing something as fragile and temporary as "heat", that gives you a 15% DPS burst for a short period of time... ...but you have no problem with a PERMANENT +14.88% DPS from L6 gunnery, rapid fire, surgical strike and individual weapon skill combined ? Or in the case of T2 guns, a permanent +16.97% DPS ?!? Or, heck, in case you also add relevant damage ship skill to L6, especially if there's two damage skills (like several T2 ships have), or worse, if there's one rof and one damage skill on the ship... I don't even want to calculate this. The system was not DESIGNED with the existance of even L6 into the mix, and the argument of "it takes long enough to get there so it's ok" is not a good way to approach it. The basic premise of EVE is that you can be just as good as a veteran in a reasonable time frame if only you SPECIALIZE enough, since there's a very limited skillset that applies (especially true with smaller ships). This would definetely break the whole concept into tiny little pieces, and push the "get even" goalmark so far forward that a lot of people would be discouraged at the prospect (and you think "L5s are annoying" whine was strong, wait to see what would happend if L6s would be possible). That aside, yes, I would positively LOVE to have L6s possible, even L7s. I would PERSONALLY train several skills to L6, and even a select few to L7 if it was at all possible. But those would give me an insane edge I shouldn't even possibly get in the first place. Therefore, I must regretfully dismiss this whole idea as simply "overpowered", and therefore BAD for the game, as a whole. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Sismar Minmatar Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.01.18 06:00:00 - [27] Absurd...


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