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Should ther be a limit to buy/sell order changes per day?

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Aldelphius Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.13 20:53:00 - [1] I do quite a bit of selling and buying on a daily basis, enough that I pay attention to the quantities on buy and sell orders and their respective prices, so I know when a buyer has raised or lowered their price. What im looking for is peoples opininon if there should be a limit to how often prices are change on a single buy/sell order. The reasoning is that in some markets, such as gasoline, sellers are only allowed to change their price once every 24 hours. In comodities markets there are also price caps in futures orders based on the previous days close. But in eve people can change their order every 5 minutes, and when people are increasing the price by 0.01 each time, they only incure a fee equil to the change in total price + 100isk. My personal opinion is there either needs to be a time limit in the hours area, or an increased fee charged, perhaps even the full brokers fee, for people who want to change their orders by 0.02 every five miunets. This could (mabey) even potentially reduce server load, especially in busy trading hubs with millions of transactions a day as it is.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Shadarle on 13/01/2008 21:01:50 Both of these have been suggested by me in the past. CCP has stated they are definitely looking at increasing the time between modifications and I believe they hinted they may look at the fees as well. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Trilori Caldari GearBox Fleet Svcs	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:05:00 - [3] that'll be a plus, someone also mentioned broker agents queing up sell/buy order jobs to do the same effect to slow it down as well I don't know if CCP is looking at that or not but you can do the same thing without needing a broker agent (like mission agents, etc)
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Trilori that'll be a plus, someone also mentioned broker agents queing up sell/buy order jobs to do the same effect to slow it down as well I don't know if CCP is looking at that or not but you can do the same thing without needing a broker agent (like mission agents, etc) Using agents and queuing seems to just add unnecessary complexity to the situation. CCP barely ever does anything related to the market as it is... suggesting something that will take a lot of work and coding compared to a quick change of 5 minutes to 30 minutes/60minutes/etc doesn't seem too plausible. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:17:00 - [5] Yes some changes are needed. Although the limits that have been proposed can easily be worked around by a trader just having even more alts. I guess thats a win for CCP and a loss for db calls in the making. I am not saying dont bother with the changes as proposed, I would just hate people to think that its the "magic bullet" that will solve all of this. Since IMO any serious trader who makes billions a month wouldnt hesitate to add an account or two if it increased his bottom line. --
Prokonsul Piotrus Minmatar Astral Light of Nature	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:47:00 - [6] The current '5 minutes mod' is already some form of a limit. I wonder if there are price changing bots out there? Response speed of some is really surprising. -- One day, we will return to the planets... please, CCP? :) EVE-Wiki - share your knowledge in one place.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Treelox Yes some changes are needed. Although the limits that have been proposed can easily be worked around by a trader just having even more alts. I guess thats a win for CCP and a loss for db calls in the making. I am not saying dont bother with the changes as proposed, I would just hate people to think that its the "magic bullet" that will solve all of this. Since IMO any serious trader who makes billions a month wouldnt hesitate to add an account or two if it increased his bottom line. Every time you add more accounts you're drastically increasing the time it will take you to update stuff. Sure, SOME people may buy 2-3 more alts to do this. Most will not. It adds some more strategy into the process as well. Instead of just updating by .01 every 5 minutes people will have to decide if they want to trade lots of different items or if they want to trade half as many but split all their orders in half to allow double the updates, etc. If someone really has the desire to trade with twice or three times as many accounts then more power to em. It helps CCP in the process. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Treelox Yes some changes are needed. Although the limits that have been proposed can easily be worked around by a trader just having even more alts. I guess thats a win for CCP and a loss for db calls in the making. I am not saying dont bother with the changes as proposed, I would just hate people to think that its the "magic bullet" that will solve all of this. Since IMO any serious trader who makes billions a month wouldnt hesitate to add an account or two if it increased his bottom line. Every time you add more accounts you're drastically increasing the time it will take you to update stuff. Sure, SOME people may buy 2-3 more alts to do this. Most will not. It adds some more strategy into the process as well. Instead of just updating by .01 every 5 minutes people will have to decide if they want to trade lots of different items or if they want to trade half as many but split all their orders in half to allow double the updates, etc. If someone really has the desire to trade with twice or three times as many accounts then more power to em. It helps CCP in the process. I fully agree with you Shadarle, I just want people to be aware that the fix proposed wont stop the most "hardcore" from working around the mechanic. I believe that those that constantly babysit their orders and change them every 5min as required wont be intimidated by running another account or two. --
Monty Kvaran Caldari Consolidated Sprocket	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:41:00 - [9] Edited by: Monty Kvaran on 13/01/2008 22:41:47 The problem is that if you make a mistake entering an order, and can't change it for 60min+ it would really suck. Much better would be to increase the minimum change fee and/or make it a percent of the total (not change) .
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Monty Kvaran Edited by: Monty Kvaran on 13/01/2008 22:41:47 The problem is that if you make a mistake entering an order, and can't change it for 60min+ it would really suck. Much better would be to increase the minimum change fee and/or make it a percent of the total (not change) If you make a mistake your bigger concern is losing billions of ISK, not 60 minutes. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Trilori Caldari GearBox Fleet Svcs	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Trilori that'll be a plus, someone also mentioned broker agents queing up sell/buy order jobs to do the same effect to slow it down as well I don't know if CCP is looking at that or not but you can do the same thing without needing a broker agent (like mission agents, etc) Using agents and queuing seems to just add unnecessary complexity to the situation. CCP barely ever does anything related to the market as it is... suggesting something that will take a lot of work and coding compared to a quick change of 5 minutes to 30 minutes/60minutes/etc doesn't seem too plausible. /signed I agree, I was just saying that a time limit like the OP said does the same effect as a market broker agent queing would do etc. So indeed you are right it would be more complex :)
Trilori Caldari GearBox Fleet Svcs	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Monty Kvaran Edited by: Monty Kvaran on 13/01/2008 22:41:47 The problem is that if you make a mistake entering an order, and can't change it for 60min+ it would really suck. Much better would be to increase the minimum change fee and/or make it a percent of the total (not change) If you make a mistake your bigger concern is losing billions of ISK, not 60 minutes. That will make you think twice, hence I like this idea.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:37:00 - [13] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 14/01/2008 01:37:21 I don't understand. Time limits don't prevent your order from being undercut by 0.01. It just reduces your ability to respond. How about this instead? A large order casts a "shadow" (some function of the size of the order, maybe a percentage times the log of number of units). You can't place or move an order into that shadow, but existing orders remain ok and unchanged. This proposal would need some work since there are ways both to game it and some of the next generation of "fixes" to the gaming.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Tasko Pal Edited by: Tasko Pal on 14/01/2008 01:37:21 I don't understand. Time limits don't prevent your order from being undercut by 0.01. It just reduces your ability to respond. How about this instead? A large order casts a "shadow" (some function of the size of the order, maybe a percentage times the log of number of units). You can't place or move an order into that shadow, but existing orders remain ok and unchanged. This proposal would need some work since there are ways both to game it and some of the next generation of "fixes" to the gaming. If everyone is dealing with this 60 minute timer it would not be such a large problem. Anyone wishing to try and avoid it to some degree could create multiple orders. This of course has the downside of taking up some of your max open orders... this makes it a strategic decision. Anyone making an alt loses out on the benefits of standing. Broker fees and taxes would hit the alt hard. If someone is willing to make this trade-off then they are free to do so. Notice what is going on? People are having to make strategic choices on how to handle limited resources. Instead of simply updating every order every 5 minutes by .02 or .03 isk. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Daeva Vios Ares Arms and Modules LLC	Posted - 2008.01.14 01:47:00 - [15] Be careful! You guys are discussing the market!! CCP Mitnal will not like this Not one bit.
Trilori Caldari GearBox Fleet Svcs	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:06:00 - [16] Refers to moderated post - Mitnal
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:37:00 - [17] More thinking on it. Here's a way to work the "order shadow" Rules: 1. Every order casts a shadow, namely a range of prices towards the middle of the market. That is, if it is a buy order, the shadow is some range of prices starting at the buy order and going up. Sell orders, the shadow starts at the sell price and goes down. 2. You cannot place an order in a shadow unless there is already an order there at that price (here an order is present, if you can trade it, namely any sell order in the region and any buy order that's in range). Existing orders are not affected by a shadow. 3. Bigger orders cast longer shadows, but their shadow can be no longer than a portion of the spread between highest buy and lowest sell prices. The idea is that the shadow can't prevent someone from outbidding you, it just limits how close their order is to yours. 4. Important statistics that will be used. Let "V" be the average daily volume in the good for the entire region. Let "b" be the lowest maximum buy price effective at that station over the last five minutes and "s" the highest minimum sell price effective in the region over the last five minutes (this is to keep people from gaming the spread on high liquidity markets). 5. Suppose a player places an order (according to the rules above) for "N" quantity of a good, let's assume he's buying for the moment at price "p" (below the current applicable minimum selling price so there isn't a transaction). Here's a formula I made up for the occasion. The effective spread "x" is the minimum of s-b and s-p. Then the shadow is shadow = max(0, x/20min(1, 1+log_100(N10/V))) isk. That is, unless there is already a book order present, someone else can't place a buy order above you from p+0.01 to p+shadow (assuming shadow is at least 0.01). If it were a sell order, the shadow would be between p-0.01 and p-shadow. So what's happening? "log_100" means the log base 100. "min" means the minimum of the list of numbers inside the following parentheses. At a higher level, orders that are 10% of daily volume in size or get maximum spread, 5% of the five minute spread, or in the case that the buy order is higher than the minimum five minute buy order, the spread of the new buy order and the highest minimum sell order over the last five minutes. At a bit over 0.1% of daily volume, you lose any possibility of a spread. As you do if the spread is too small (x<0.2). Finally, the shadow is a float threshhold. If you exceed it even by a little, you're good. So if your order has a shadow of 0.0099 isk, which is less than the minimum 0.01 step size of the market, then too bad. Let's give an example. Suppose I'm trading in ravens and I want to undercut the cheapest sell price in a region. That sell order is 2 ravens at 103 million isk. Suppose bid is 83 mil and the sell price of course is 103 and these orices have been stable for hours, so x = 103-83 = 20 million isk. Volume is decent, there were 38 ravens traded on average per day. So V = 38. Since the sell price I'm trying to undercut is 2, we get N=2. shadow = max(0, 20,000,000/20min(1,1+log_100(210/38))) isk shadow = max(0, 1,000,000min(1, 1+log_100)(20/38))) isk shadow = max(0, 1,000,000min(1,1-.1393768) isk shadow = max(0, 860,623.199) isk = 860,623.19 isk That means you can't place a raven sell order between 102,139,376.81 and 102,999,999.99 isk.
Giovanni F	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:49:00 - [18] I dont see how increasing the modification time between orders can be beneficial to the majority of traders. I for one would find a greater modification having drastic effects on the marketability of certain goods on the market, particular those that have a high turnover with low margins, such as minerals. While many traders have a profit margin minimum, and minerals in most cases never come close to that limit, the ability to trade minerals combined with their quick turnover rate in comparison to other commodities would suffer greatly in my eyes. Another problem I see is the fact that by increasing the time period, luck would play a much greater role on the markets than it does now. You could be the unlucky soul who misses out on filling an important buy order or sell order buy a few minutes, and because of that, you're stuck sitting on orders that most likely wont be filled due to having to wait for an longer period of time than we do now. I can currently see no problem with the system, but maybe thats because I'm biased since I have a greater amount of free time than other traders (such as Shadarle) and can be bothered to check my orders while I'm mining or doing some other money making activity. But in that case, bias can be seen on both ends. Some traders want a great modification time delay because they dont have the time in their day to make changes every 5 minutes, or they cant be bothered to babysit orders, so it would be disingenuous to look at it from the perspective of a person who doesnt have the time. If someone can provide a valid example as to how changing the current system would add to the profitability of trading for someone who has the time in their day to check their orders, and trades in a highly volatile market with much competition where modification time is better at its current its current time or even lessened, I'd love to see it.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.14 02:49:00 - [19] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 14/01/2008 02:51:30 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Tasko Pal Edited by: Tasko Pal on 14/01/2008 01:37:21 I don't understand. Time limits don't prevent your order from being undercut by 0.01. It just reduces your ability to respond. How about this instead? A large order casts a "shadow" (some function of the size of the order, maybe a percentage times the log of number of units). You can't place or move an order into that shadow, but existing orders remain ok and unchanged. This proposal would need some work since there are ways both to game it and some of the next generation of "fixes" to the gaming. If everyone is dealing with this 60 minute timer it would not be such a large problem. Anyone wishing to try and avoid it to some degree could create multiple orders. This of course has the downside of taking up some of your max open orders... this makes it a strategic decision. Anyone making an alt loses out on the benefits of standing. Broker fees and taxes would hit the alt hard. If someone is willing to make this trade-off then they are free to do so. Notice what is going on? People are having to make strategic choices on how to handle limited resources. Instead of simply updating every order every 5 minutes by .02 or .03 isk. But is it a good idea to make everyone go through that? As I see it, this does two undesirable things. First, it introduces substantial inefficiencies into the market without actually solving the problem of 0.01 undercutting. My shadow idea introduces inefficiencies as well (and frankly any solution for dealing with 0.01 undercutters), but these are IMHO far less significant and they deal directly and effectively with the problem of undercutting. Second, this solution signfiicantly weakens the mini-profession (am I using this term correctly?) of market maker and probably significantly hampers other sorts of active traders.
Giovanni F	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Tasko Pal Edited by: Tasko Pal on 14/01/2008 02:51:30 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Tasko Pal Edited by: Tasko Pal on 14/01/2008 01:37:21 I don't understand. Time limits don't prevent your order from being undercut by 0.01. It just reduces your ability to respond. How about this instead? A large order casts a "shadow" (some function of the size of the order, maybe a percentage times the log of number of units). You can't place or move an order into that shadow, but existing orders remain ok and unchanged. This proposal would need some work since there are ways both to game it and some of the next generation of "fixes" to the gaming. Exactly the point I was making. For me, the longer modification time has these effects on two types of traders. For items that less volume and a slower turnover, I doubt the longer modification time would be a factor, and in fact may help those traders as many of the sellers would realize that the highest buyorder wouldnt change for a great period so they may sell their stock to you because of that. For higher volume and faster turnover items such as minerals or ammo, it would ruin one element of trading I personally find fun, and thats the more active trading that goes along with those items, and as such mirrors what we see in real life. In real life, minerals are in constant demand and pretty much constant supply, as evidenced by the amount of volatility their prices experience and the nature of the exchanges where they are traded (such as the pits at the CBOT and NYMEX). If the longer modification time was ever implemented, the nature of these markets would inevitably change, and in my honest opinion, for the worse. While some people who lack the time may prefer passive trading and the ease of it, active trading is a nice diversion from my everyday EVE play. If everyone is dealing with this 60 minute timer it would not be such a large problem. Anyone wishing to try and avoid it to some degree could create multiple orders. This of course has the downside of taking up some of your max open orders... this makes it a strategic decision. Anyone making an alt loses out on the benefits of standing. Broker fees and taxes would hit the alt hard. If someone is willing to make this trade-off then they are free to do so. Notice what is going on? People are having to make strategic choices on how to handle limited resources. Instead of simply updating every order every 5 minutes by .02 or .03 isk. But is it a good idea to make everyone go through that? As I see it, this does two undesirable things. First, it introduces substantial inefficiencies into the market without actually solving the problem of 0.01 undercutting. My shadow idea introduces inefficiencies as well (and frankly any solution for dealing with 0.01 undercutters), but these are IMHO far less significant and they deal directly and effectively with the problem of undercutting. Second, this solution signfiicantly weakens the mini-profession (am I using this term correctly?) of market maker and probably significantly hampers other sorts of active traders.
untmare sai	Posted - 2008.01.14 03:15:00 - [21] Maybe instead of the shadow stopping orders from being placed, new orders falling within the shadow become queued up by time of arrival instead of price. I would feel like it would be easier to sell and buy things from someone with large volume movement. Harder to buy jeans at wholesale price when you're outbidding wal-mart by 0.01 - the wholesaler would just ignore you. The idea of restricting orders completely within a price feels overly artificial.
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.01.14 04:36:00 - [22] I say leave it as it is. There's a lot of good things that we could hope for CCP to change to the Market system, and this isn't one of them in my opinion. Eve Corp and Fansite Web design, development and hosting services
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.14 04:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Astorothe I say leave it as it is. There's a lot of good things that we could hope for CCP to change to the Market system, and this isn't one of them in my opinion. But it is indeed something on their list and we will most likely see the order change time increasing. Maybe to 10 minutes, maybe to 60, who knows. But it is being discussed or has already been discussed. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Vested Interest	Posted - 2008.01.14 05:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Astorothe I say leave it as it is. There's a lot of good things that we could hope for CCP to change to the Market system, and this isn't one of them in my opinion.
Tandori Tanaka Tanaka Stuff and Supplies	Posted - 2008.01.14 07:16:00 - [25] An 60minutes timer to alternate orders. An 10secs timer to cancel an order incase someone entered a wrong number. If people cancel and relist thier orders to undercut thier competitors they will loose the broker fee every time. Sounds good to me and the DB servers might get some relief
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.14 09:02:00 - [26] Just make changing the price of an order take the same amount of tax, brokers fees etc as setting up a new order. That way modifying your orders will at some point cost more than what you can get from that order. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
matoni Open Season	Posted - 2008.01.14 09:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Laboratus Just make changing the price of an order take the same amount of tax, brokers fees etc as setting up a new order. That way modifying your orders will at some point cost more than what you can get from that order. That would be the same as eliminating order modifications and would strangle the market. Did you think that one through? I fail to see anything wrong with the current 5 minute delay. The market is in no need of more regulation.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:05:00 - [28] Yes I did. After looking at the price developement of some stuff I tried to sell and seing it drop in price ~20% in 2h with apparently two competing undercutters competing with each other (and being so relentless they look like bots), I can't really see other options except putting a serious cost (percentage of sale price) on changing price. Adding the delay too much just makes selling high price low volume items too random. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Astorothe I say leave it as it is. There's a lot of good things that we could hope for CCP to change to the Market system, and this isn't one of them in my opinion. But it is indeed something on their list and we will most likely see the order change time increasing. Maybe to 10 minutes, maybe to 60, who knows. But it is being discussed or has already been discussed. I see - that's good to know actually. I would prefer to see some rudimentary improvements to the Market GUI such as highlighting of own orders, better ways to sort the data, etc - but I won't de-rail this topic with those. heads over to Features discussion Eve Corp and Fansite Web design, development and hosting services
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.14 12:50:00 - [30] Increasing time limit would be mistake. Everyone can have 5 orders instead of one. Hardcore traders who have hunderds of active orders may need more chars, but I doubt that usual camper trades so many items. With good skills it is possible to have like 500(?) orders on one character. Increased time limit would only help campers to dominate markets even more. It would cause higher database load and make market less comfortable for use.

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