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Arrigo Glokta 14	Posted - 2012.02.10 12:44:00 - [1] - Quote Hey hey, An Alt of mine is currently flying an Onerios. Looking to get into one of the 2 Shield Repping Logis next, but not sure which one to go for.... Currently only got Logistics IV but half way to V. She will be the only logi pilot in our small fleet. With that in mind, it seems that the Scimitar would be better. I kind of think 1 Scimitar OR multiple Basilisks. No experience to back this up - is this about right??? Thanks
Revolution Rising Intaki Armaments Important Internet Spaceship League 52	Posted - 2012.02.10 12:59:00 - [2] - Quote Arrigo Glokta wrote: Hey hey, An Alt of mine is currently flying an Onerios. Looking to get into one of the 2 Shield Repping Logis next, but not sure which one to go for.... Currently only got Logistics IV but half way to V. She will be the only logi pilot in our small fleet. With that in mind, it seems that the Scimitar would be better. I kind of think 1 Scimitar OR multiple Basilisks. No experience to back this up - is this about right??? Thanks As I type this I'm sitting on EC- gate as the only oneiros in a 20 man gatecamp. Personally, I am really glad to have this and not a guardian because that would really suck. Basically it works like - oneiros/scimitar can run on their own if necessary and jump through a gate if(when) primaried. It's great for giving the much needed support many people don't like to play - you don't get on any killmails with it. Lets' face it, you won't get 2 in an impromptu fleet of this size.
Ernst Volckheim School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.02.10 13:41:00 - [3] - Quote Can someone elaborate on the relative merits of each logistics ship? I would specifically like to know why the scimi and oneiros are better than their counter-parts when they are the only logi in the fleet.
Linda Shadowborn Dark Steel Industries 62	Posted - 2012.02.10 14:05:00 - [4] - Quote Ernst Volckheim wrote: Can someone elaborate on the relative merits of each logistics ship? I would specifically like to know why the scimi and oneiros are better than their counter-parts when they are the only logi in the fleet. Because they dont need cap transfers to them to remain cap stable. If you dont have any other logis then a basi or guardian needs another ship to transfer to them and since that ship wont have the range bonus to its transfer the logi is now locked in place.
Danny John-Peter The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 54	Posted - 2012.02.10 14:15:00 - [5] - Quote Waits for another Liang argument to start
Ernst Volckheim School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.02.10 14:24:00 - [6] - Quote Linda Shadowborn wrote: Ernst Volckheim wrote: Can someone elaborate on the relative merits of each logistics ship? I would specifically like to know why the scimi and oneiros are better than their counter-parts when they are the only logi in the fleet. Because they dont need cap transfers to them to remain cap stable. If you dont have any other logis then a basi or guardian needs another ship to transfer to them and since that ship wont have the range bonus to its transfer the logi is now locked in place. Thank you
Onictus Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities 96	Posted - 2012.02.10 14:32:00 - [7] - Quote Linda Shadowborn wrote: Ernst Volckheim wrote: Can someone elaborate on the relative merits of each logistics ship? I would specifically like to know why the scimi and oneiros are better than their counter-parts when they are the only logi in the fleet. Because they dont need cap transfers to them to remain cap stable. If you dont have any other logis then a basi or guardian needs another ship to transfer to them and since that ship wont have the range bonus to its transfer the logi is now locked in place. Cap stable is highly overrated for any PvP application.
Ravenesa The Bastards The Bastards. 5	Posted - 2012.02.10 14:45:00 - [8] - Quote Onictus wrote: Linda Shadowborn wrote: Ernst Volckheim wrote: Can someone elaborate on the relative merits of each logistics ship? I would specifically like to know why the scimi and oneiros are better than their counter-parts when they are the only logi in the fleet. Because they dont need cap transfers to them to remain cap stable. If you dont have any other logis then a basi or guardian needs another ship to transfer to them and since that ship wont have the range bonus to its transfer the logi is now locked in place. Cap stable is highly overrated for any PvP application. Unless you are in a smaller roaming gang and you are the Logi pilot while everyone else is just buffered... Scimi also has the benefit of being very fast for a logi ship and can field a good local tank as well.
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 218	Posted - 2012.02.10 15:03:00 - [9] - Quote Cap stability might be over-rated, but with most Basi and Guardians, you're talking around 10 seconds of cap, if you don't have an incoming transfer. Not hugely useful. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities.
Torothin Paragon. Elite Space Guild 27	Posted - 2012.02.10 15:56:00 - [10] - Quote Scimmy is also more mobile and ideal for sheild buffed nano roams. Vaga's Cyn's, Drams, Nano Canes/harbi's and so on. Scimmy's are also ideal for LRH gangs. Overall in PvP the Scimmy is the more sought after logistic for shield gangs.
mxzf Shovel Bros 545	Posted - 2012.02.10 16:24:00 - [11] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: Waits for another Liang argument to start lol, you beat me to posting this. @the OP, apparently solo-Basi can work well with proper fitting skills/implants (see this thread for the pages of discussion about it)
mama guru Evolution 23	Posted - 2012.02.10 16:26:00 - [12] - Quote The Guardian is superior for armor fleets because armor fleets don't bet on a speed advantage. The Scimitar is superior for shield fleets because 99% of the shield fleets, even battleship ones tend to aim for a mobolity/speed advantage. Not to mention the scimitar can easily be fit to permanently run an MWD and 3 large shield transfers. The above linked setup can't do either. If there is one shiptype Liang can't fly worth for 5 isk it's logistics. ______ EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's to hard you are to weak.
Sjugar Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 16	Posted - 2012.02.10 16:50:00 - [13] - Quote Basi can easily fit a local repper and rely on cap boosters for solowork. A scimi can't.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 771	Posted - 2012.02.10 17:00:00 - [14] - Quote Arrigo Glokta wrote: I kind of think 1 Scimitar OR multiple Basilisks. No experience to back this up - is this about right??? No. Quite the opposite in fact. :) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 771	Posted - 2012.02.10 17:41:00 - [15] - Quote Linda Shadowborn wrote: Ernst Volckheim wrote: Can someone elaborate on the relative merits of each logistics ship? I would specifically like to know why the scimi and oneiros are better than their counter-parts when they are the only logi in the fleet. Because they dont need cap transfers to them to remain cap stable. If you dont have any other logis then a basi or guardian needs another ship to transfer to them and since that ship wont have the range bonus to its transfer the logi is now locked in place. ^^ This is only true because that's the most common fitting. Not because its the best fitting for the job in question. Its really something like saying that the Megathron can't deal any damage at 30km because it fits blasters.... -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 771	Posted - 2012.02.10 17:44:00 - [16] - Quote mama guru wrote: The Guardian is superior for armor fleets because armor fleets don't bet on a speed advantage. The Scimitar is superior for shield fleets because 99% of the shield fleets, even battleship ones tend to aim for a mobolity/speed advantage. Not to mention the scimitar can easily be fit to permanently run an MWD and 3 large shield transfers. The above linked setup can't do either. If there is one shiptype Liang can't fly worth for 5 isk it's logistics. Suggesting a 3 RR Scim when and then saying I don't know how to fly a logi is pretty priceless. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Roosterton Syndicalis Immortalis 318	Posted - 2012.02.10 18:24:00 - [17] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: mama guru wrote: The Guardian is superior for armor fleets because armor fleets don't bet on a speed advantage. The Scimitar is superior for shield fleets because 99% of the shield fleets, even battleship ones tend to aim for a mobolity/speed advantage. Not to mention the scimitar can easily be fit to permanently run an MWD and 3 large shield transfers. The above linked setup can't do either. If there is one shiptype Liang can't fly worth for 5 isk it's logistics. Suggesting a 3 RR Scim when and then saying I don't know how to fly a logi is pretty priceless. -Liang Out of sheer curiousity and not an attempt to be cynical, can you toss me a decent Scimi fit with 4 RR? I've always gone with 3 RR + MWD for 0.0 ~~warfare~~ blobs.
Sjugar Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 16	Posted - 2012.02.10 18:27:00 - [18] - Quote What this thread lacks is fits. The op specifically outlined the circumstances: an shield logi working as only logi in a small gang. So, go ahead so we can poke at eachothers fits. I'll post a shitfit first so you can poke holes and post better ones: [Basilisk, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive Medium Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Medium Rudimentary Energy Destabilizer I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I /OFFLINE Warrior II x5
Arrigo Glokta 14	Posted - 2012.02.10 19:03:00 - [19] - Quote Many thanks for your responses - It seems the opinion is well held that a lone Scimi works best - except Liang - who thinks the opposite but fails (?refuses?) to elaborate as to why... So , think I will be going for Scimi - but will read with interest at counter-arguments. EDIT: But as the above poster stated - my particular situation is for a lone shield logi in a small shield fleet. Any further fits (for Basi and Scimi) and comments much appreciated. Usted es muy simpatico.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 773	Posted - 2012.02.10 19:34:00 - [20] - Quote Arrigo Glokta wrote: Many thanks for your responses - It seems the opinion is well held that a lone Scimi works best - except Liang - who thinks the opposite but fails (?refuses?) to elaborate as to why... So , think I will be going for Scimi - but will read with interest at counter-arguments. EDIT: But as the above poster stated - my particular situation is for a lone shield logi in a small shield fleet. Any further fits (for Basi and Scimi) and comments much appreciated. Usted es muy simpatico. Its much less a refusal and much more a "I don't want to rehash the same thread that's been had 500 times in the last year". Go read the thread someone linked. -Liang Ed: From this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=65765 (go read the whole thing) Liang Nuren wrote: This was the flagship of the Parsec Flux fleet for a long time: [Basilisk, Solo Basilisk] Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I 10MN Afterburner II Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Improved Cloaking Device II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Hornet EC-300 x5 Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
mxzf Shovel Bros 548	Posted - 2012.02.10 19:45:00 - [21] - Quote Sjugar wrote: Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I /OFFLINE How the heck do you offline a rig? lol
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 773	Posted - 2012.02.10 20:00:00 - [22] - Quote Roosterton wrote: Out of sheer curiousity and not an attempt to be cynical, can you toss me a decent Scimi fit with 4 RR? I've always gone with 3 RR + MWD for 0.0 ~~warfare~~ blobs. First, let me first tell you that I have nothing to say about what people should fly in massive blobs. It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it. I only speak for small gang warfare using 1-2 logis tops. Most of my experience is in low sec and WH space - though we roamed through sov and NPC 0.0 as well. I used it in ~5 man gangs against gangs up to 15-20 people. As such - I lifted this fit out of a recent evemail I sent someone. I'm reasonably positive I have this Scimitar in my hangar right now (its very similar if its not this exact fit). It isn't the one featured in the neuting video - that one was rocking T1 rigs, 2 CPRs/2Nanos and a Domi large booster. IIRC fitting a MWD with 4 reps requires either a full rack of faction PDUs or a faction RCU + faction PDU + 2 beta CPRs. Either way the MWD is gonna jack your capacitor all to hell and back. Its also mostly unnecessary in small gang combat. Anyway, this is the best competitor to the Basi that I am aware of (4 reps vs 5 reps, no cloak, slightly faster). Its strong against EM damage, but quite weak against Kin and Thm. IMO it tanks worse than the Basi for almost all practical fights. [Scimitar, 4 Rep] Dark Blood Power Diagnostic System Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II 10MN Afterburner II Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II For blob warfare, you probably shouldn't be flying an expensive active tanked logi. Or an active tanked anything at all. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 289	Posted - 2012.02.10 20:25:00 - [23] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it. Yeah, Basi pretty bad since 70% of DPS is from lasers or EMP firing projectiles. You can work the Basi into having a comparable tank vs. Scorch/EMP (2x LSEs, em+invuln, DC2) but you're giving up ECCM to do it. That's a pretty bad idea given that most major sov alliances use swarms of ECM drones against logis.
Onictus Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities 96	Posted - 2012.02.10 21:11:00 - [24] - Quote Torothin wrote: Scimmy is also more mobile and ideal for sheild buffed nano roams. Vaga's Cyn's, Drams, Nano Canes/harbi's and so on. Scimmy's are also ideal for LRH gangs. Overall in PvP the Scimmy is the more sought after logistic for shield gangs. Its also sought after for major fleet engagements. No needing a cap chains is a SERIOUS bonus when you aren't babysitting an amarr BS fleet.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 774	Posted - 2012.02.10 21:43:00 - [25] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it. Yeah, Basi pretty bad since 70% of DPS is from lasers or EMP firing projectiles. You can work the Basi into having a comparable tank vs. Scorch/EMP (2x LSEs, em+invuln, DC2) but you're giving up ECCM to do it. That's a pretty bad idea given that most major sov alliances use swarms of ECM drones against logis. People also say that 70% of the damage in low sec is EM damage - and I happen to know for fact that metric is total bullshit. But, 0.0 has all those alpha -cat fleets so it might be more true in the blobfests there. For what its worth, I took the liberty of looking at your last ~100 kills or so and most of those died to Kin/Thm/Exp and were dealing Kin/Thm/Exp. In fact, most of the Minnie ships you've killed weren't even carrying EMP (!!). Not that I doubt you are totally right and all damage in 0.0 is EM damage.... /shrug -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Torothin Paragon. Elite Space Guild 27	Posted - 2012.02.10 22:10:00 - [26] - Quote I know I'm 100% right when I say that the Scimmy is the go to logi in Sheild buffed roams. especially small scale roams. No questions asked.
axxeessee Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.02.10 22:11:00 - [27] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Arrigo Glokta wrote: I kind of think 1 Scimitar OR multiple Basilisks. No experience to back this up - is this about right??? No. Quite the opposite in fact. :) -Liang Stop commenting on areas you have obviously no clue about. Sitting on a gate cloaked baiting bads is not the only thing there is to this game, im sure you are an expert in this domains but there is a lot more thing to do in eve than to stay in the same system. The fact of the matter is there is two big possibilities of (viable) shield fleets Alpha Mael (or rokh) fleets : Basis are usually the way to go, they put out more reps, they can stay with the mael, they got a better tank. Nano fleets : your logi NEEDS to keep up with your fleet (stay behind it), the scimmy is the only ship able to do that in an efficient way. These are the 2 big shield fleet doctrines, and the situations where you use each of the shield logis. Of course you can always bend the rules and go out with a brawling shield gang, but im talking optimal here.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 775	Posted - 2012.02.10 22:23:00 - [28] - Quote axxeessee wrote: Sitting on a gate cloaked baiting bads is not the only thing there is to this game, im sure you are an expert in this domains but there is a lot more thing to do in eve than to stay in the same system. I don't actually fly a Logi in Amamake. It tends to pollute the waters and make people not want to come here and fight us. :) Quote: The fact of the matter is there is two big possibilities of (viable) shield fleets ... These are the 2 big shield fleet doctrines, and the situations where you use each of the shield logis. Of course you can always bend the rules and go out with a brawling shield gang, but im talking optimal here. This is... not quite right. You swapped the word ordering in the second to last sentence: "These are the 2 big shield fleet doctrines..." should read "These are the 2 big fleet shield doctrines..." I know its a subtle difference that you probably don't understand, but there you have it. Also: I try not to talk about areas of the game I don't actually play in. As such, I wouldn't want to say what the best strategy for RRing someone that's getting instapopped is. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 289	Posted - 2012.02.11 04:44:00 - [29] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: People also say that 70% of the damage in low sec is EM damage - and I happen to know for fact that metric is total bullshit. But, 0.0 has all those alpha -cat fleets so it might be more true in the blobfests there. For what its worth, I took the liberty of looking at your last ~100 kills or so and most of those died to Kin/Thm/Exp and were dealing Kin/Thm/Exp. In fact, most of the Minnie ships you've killed weren't even carrying EMP (!!). Not that I doubt you are totally right and all damage in 0.0 is EM damage... Most of the BRs are **** up because the guys we were fighting killed very little beyond dictors. In the fight against IRC, it was basically a mish-mash of ** at first (lol mixed fleet) then they reshipped into Tempests, mostly firing EMP against our logis then our Gilas, then finally our sentries. We had no dics or hics and only two total points in fleet, so they bailed. Against Goons, I dunno what most of their Canes were doing, but their Drakes weren't killing anything except the two ships outside the firewall. The WTF stn fight/carrier kill was strictly them being shy about aggroing, I don't believe they killed anything, especially not firing Kin. That about covers my last 100 medium-gang kills. Meanwhile, the last time we actually flat out welped a Muninn fleet (as in losing a bunch of Scimitars) , it was to -A-'s MPL Oracles skullfucking us on their station. Pretty poor fight all and all, but we didn't lose any logis in the initial kite, it was all when we were sucked to 0 on a POCO right as their dictor landed =/
Ahrieman Heretic Army Heretic Nation 37	Posted - 2012.02.11 05:26:00 - [30] - Quote EM is not the favorite damage type of myself (almost exclusively minnie pilot) or most other minnie pilots I know. PP is the way to go for minnie and has been for awhile. If you want to go back to 2009, I'm sure we can find lots of projectiles firing EMP... I am content with people that keep wanting to adhere to a doctrine that says "Minmatar only shoot EMP and Barrage." You will just be making my work easier for me when we meet. I scam on my main

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