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Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.03.23 01:40:00 -
[1]
People claim that high-sec mining without risk is making it so people can get a battleship in two months.
SO ******* WHAT?!?!
I can get a battleship in ONE ******* DAY out in 0.0 space.
Is 2 months too short a time to get a battleship without risk? Or do you want it to take them 6 months?
Why are you guys complaining about risk-free mining? It already earns 25 times less than "risky" (albiet not really as I never see a single rat or PC pirate) out in 0.0 space.
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Trooble
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Posted - 2004.03.23 01:45:00 -
[2]
Err..
Shlaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaags!
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Raudka
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Posted - 2004.03.23 01:49:00 -
[3]
Because the warbears can't handle having to use a war slot to be able to kill people who don't feel like going into 0.4 or lower.
FPS mentality
--
Champion of user friendlieness and proper information distribution
Defender of newbies
EVE knowledgeBase |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.03.23 02:31:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
Because the warbears can't handle having to use a war slot to be able to kill people who don't feel like going into 0.4 or lower.
FPS mentality
And your mentality is exactly what one please? Beside of being a troll who dislikes FPS games?
--
Stories: #1
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.03.23 04:31:00 -
[5]
Quote:
Quote:
Because the warbears can't handle having to use a war slot to be able to kill people who don't feel like going into 0.4 or lower.
FPS mentality
And your mentality is exactly what one please? Beside of being a troll who dislikes FPS games?
Hey! I usually loathe most FPS.
I have severe problems when I shoot at someone with a rocket launcher and
1) I actually hit them
2) The impact is hard enough to cause detonation
3) They're still there instead of a pair of smoking boots and gore.
The Rainbow 6 series has always been more my style (yes, I was usually the guy with the Steyr Aug capping people from on top of the PC Gamer building) 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Robotek Hybrid
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Posted - 2004.03.23 04:58:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Because the warbears can't handle having to use a war slot to be able to kill people who don't feel like going into 0.4 or lower.
FPS mentality
And your mentality is exactly what one please? Beside of being a troll who dislikes FPS games?
Hey! I usually loathe most FPS.
I have severe problems when I shoot at someone with a rocket launcher and
1) I actually hit them
2) The impact is hard enough to cause detonation
3) They're still there instead of a pair of smoking boots and gore.
The Rainbow 6 series has always been more my style (yes, I was usually the guy with the Steyr Aug capping people from on top of the PC Gamer building)
that may as well be a direct assault on ut2k4 
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.03.23 06:09:00 -
[7]
*yawn*
Noone is removing mining from high sec, but i see someone has hit the Carebear Panic button. Take a chill pill and calm down.
Thx.
-
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Daedrius
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Posted - 2004.03.23 06:51:00 -
[8]
Hey..if they are willing to sit on their duff for 2 months and do nothing but mine I say more power to them 
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.03.23 07:29:00 -
[9]
Quote:
*yawn*
Noone is removing mining from high sec, but i see someone has hit the Carebear Panic button. Take a chill pill and calm down.
Thx.
There¦s a button 
__________
Capacitor research |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.23 07:43:00 -
[10]
You know with all the new people starting out in EVE lately it would be nice if like, they had some ore to mine in high security so they could progress in the game as a newbie.
But I guess since all the "uber" battleship miners have come and stripped high security space of any kind of ore, these new players won't be playing past their free trials, if that long.
Oh well, I guess EVE doesn't need new players. Right?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
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Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.03.23 07:53:00 -
[11]
Quote:
You know with all the new people starting out in EVE lately it would be nice if like, they had some ore to mine in high security so they could progress in the game as a newbie.
But I guess since all the "uber" battleship miners have come and stripped high security space of any kind of ore, these new players won't be playing past their free trials, if that long.
Oh well, I guess EVE doesn't need new players. Right?
There are plenty of 0.8 systems with ore. You just gotta look.
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Fikia
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Posted - 2004.03.23 07:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Fikia on 23/03/2004 07:57:32
I don''t agree with battleship mining in high sec space... but Jim is right, it would be nice to have people stay to play :)
Only way right now is to have corps recruit them and show them the ropes (in terms of figuring out how the game work by having them join in mining ops, npc hunts, pc hunts, etc.)
Got to look in the 0.8 systems.. true, but some new players might not be able to handle the spawns and mine at the same time! They could team up with other new players I suppose :b
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.23 07:58:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Quote:
You know with all the new people starting out in EVE lately it would be nice if like, they had some ore to mine in high security so they could progress in the game as a newbie.
But I guess since all the "uber" battleship miners have come and stripped high security space of any kind of ore, these new players won't be playing past their free trials, if that long.
Oh well, I guess EVE doesn't need new players. Right?
There are plenty of 0.8 systems with ore. You just gotta look.
They shouldn't have to search for ore, it should be in the 1.0 newbie systems, no ore there creates confusion, confused new players not progressing quit, it's quite simple.
It's like taking all the mobs out of the newbie zones in in Everquest, players need those fire beetles and orc pawns to progress. Now what if high level players sat in the newbie zones killing all the low level mobs and new players had to go "look for other mobs"? Many would quit, now the reason high level players don't do this is because they can not progress on trivial low level mobs, however strip mining in EVE can be very lucrative and has 0 risk.
Telling new players they have to "search" for something that should be there for them to start out is wrong.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.03.23 08:00:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Silverlancer on 23/03/2004 08:01:46
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You know with all the new people starting out in EVE lately it would be nice if like, they had some ore to mine in high security so they could progress in the game as a newbie.
But I guess since all the "uber" battleship miners have come and stripped high security space of any kind of ore, these new players won't be playing past their free trials, if that long.
Oh well, I guess EVE doesn't need new players. Right?
There are plenty of 0.8 systems with ore. You just gotta look.
They shouldn't have to search for ore, it should be in the 1.0 newbie systems, no ore there creates confusion, confused new players not progressing quit, it's quite simple.
It's like taking all the mobs out of the newbie zones in in Everquest, players need those fire beetles and orc pawns to progress. Now what if high level players sat in the newbie zones killing all the low level mobs and new players had to go "look for other mobs"? Many would quit, now the reason high level players don't do this is because they can not progress on trivial low level mobs, however strip mining in EVE can be very lucrative and has 0 risk.
Telling new players they have to "search" for something that should be there for them to start out is wrong.
Of course, lol. There should be plenty of ore in noob systems. IMO you should only be able to mine ore if you're in a frigate in noob systems. Or maybe if you have less than 200k skill points?
But now I hear people talking about banning battleships from empire space.
WTF are the pirates this low now? Trying to get CCP to ban battleships from empire space so that they get to kill them?
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Adriana
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Posted - 2004.03.23 08:56:00 -
[15]
Quote:
WTF are the pirates this low now? Trying to get CCP to ban battleships from empire space so that they get to kill them?
....yes?
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte |
Inconstant Moon
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Posted - 2004.03.23 09:17:00 -
[16]
the most common question in newbie chat... "where are the asteroids?"
increasing the spawn rate would help... yeah, help bring in the stripminers, damn you all.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.23 09:17:00 -
[17]
Edited by: McWatt on 23/03/2004 09:27:09
Quote:
There are plenty of 0.8 systems with ore. You just gotta look.
again. someone who wants to mine in highest sec systems with his battleship is advising the noobs to move to low sec soon.
weird world!
oh and i see, you support highways as well. weren t you working on a strategy guide? will it be named "1.0 for ever"?
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Deadflip2
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Posted - 2004.03.23 09:24:00 -
[18]
exactly, ill add you to my I-wont-KOS-you-unless ur-naughty-and-need-a-spank-becouse-ur-for-keepign-mining-this-way list 
---
"this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me.
I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist
OMG im a pretzel!!! |
Judicator
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Posted - 2004.03.23 09:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Judicator on 23/03/2004 09:32:58
Banning Battleships from Empire seems a like a steep move, but the ore problem needs a solution. I originally saw EVE as a game intended to reward players that took a risk.
An Apocalypse with 8 Miner II's and drones is a very effective ISK machine, far too effecetive compared to the risk of using it in 0.5 -> 1.0. Like Jim, and others mention, most other games prevent veterans from "farming" the noob areas by makeing the reward you get zero or so low it will take you ages to get anywhere. EVE does not have experiance like most other games, instead ISK allows you to do mostly whatever you want.
If you have ISK you can buy the best modules instead of going out to get them yourself. The other games I have played have been based on trading of items, I give you this item and you give me that item. This involved me getting items to trade. EVE I just need enough ISK. ISK I can easily get from raping secure systems from ore if I so choose.
The other day I decided to try some mining, even tough I hate it. I moved to 0.4 and started on Jaspet but the problem was, compared to Omber I was making less cash/hour. Jaspet is simply too high volume compared to Omber and each roid contains much less ore than Omber. Omber is found in "secure" systems while jaspet is only found, AFAIK, in systems where PK's can attack you. See the problem? I get a bigger reward from sitting in a secure system than Id o from sitting in an unsecure system. That is FUBAR.
I am aware that the reward for crokite/bist etc is high enough to justify the risk/reward, at least that is what I am told.
EVE has a steep learning curve and IMO new players shoudl not have to go looking for ore. If they can't find ore so they can start their life in EVE they will quit. Not beeing able to progress is a game ruining experiance and nobody is gonna pay for that.
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csebal
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Posted - 2004.03.23 10:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: csebal on 23/03/2004 10:19:07
Quote:
Edited by: Judicator on 23/03/2004 09:32:58
Banning Battleships from Empire seems a like a steep move, but the ore problem needs a solution. I originally saw EVE as a game intended to reward players that took a risk.
An Apocalypse with 8 Miner II's and drones is a very effective ISK machine, far too effecetive compared to the risk of using it in 0.5 -> 1.0. Like Jim, and others mention, most other games prevent veterans from "farming" the noob areas by makeing the reward you get zero or so low it will take you ages to get anywhere. EVE does not have experiance like most other games, instead ISK allows you to do mostly whatever you want.
If you have ISK you can buy the best modules instead of going out to get them yourself. The other games I have played have been based on trading of items, I give you this item and you give me that item. This involved me getting items to trade. EVE I just need enough ISK. ISK I can easily get from raping secure systems from ore if I so choose.
The other day I decided to try some mining, even tough I hate it. I moved to 0.4 and started on Jaspet but the problem was, compared to Omber I was making less cash/hour. Jaspet is simply too high volume compared to Omber and each roid contains much less ore than Omber. Omber is found in "secure" systems while jaspet is only found, AFAIK, in systems where PK's can attack you. See the problem? I get a bigger reward from sitting in a secure system than Id o from sitting in an unsecure system. That is FUBAR.
I am aware that the reward for crokite/bist etc is high enough to justify the risk/reward, at least that is what I am told.
EVE has a steep learning curve and IMO new players shoudl not have to go looking for ore. If they can't find ore so they can start their life in EVE they will quit. Not beeing able to progress is a game ruining experiance and nobody is gonna pay for that.
First of all, an apoc mining arkanor with the same setup makes abt 30 times the money it does in 1.0 mining scordite. I think thats a penalty enough for farmin a noob area.
When mining scordite in 0.0, it still takes a good month (well, a week and a half if you are a fanatic with the right skills) to get money for a battleship. Mining in 0.0 it only takes 2-3 hours.
Additionally, as the people reflecting to the ideas of Jash you were referring to mentioned, those other games do not have hardcore PvPers waiting at the door leading from secure space, those games do not have veterans monopolizing access to the big monsters / enemies experienced players are excepted to kill.
Its pointless to compare EVE to those games, as it has quite some unique aspects that prevents solutions like what Jash suggested to work.
Edit:
Abt the problem with Jaspet. Its one of the exceptions among roids, as it worths less / m3 than kernite does. Its s simple bug i think, but CCP simply forgot to fix it (i reported it back then in beta, if i remember correctly).
Bottomline:
Newbie starter systems should be there for newbies, and people mining there should be chased down by CCP. Only newbs should be allowed to mine there. Problem solved.
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This post is nothing more than my personal opinion. It does not represent the official standpoint of Fountain Alliance, or the HUN Corporation in any way.
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Ryoji Tanakama
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Posted - 2004.03.23 11:18:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Edited by: Silverlancer on 23/03/2004 08:01:46
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You know with all the new people starting out in EVE lately it would be nice if like, they had some ore to mine in high security so they could progress in the game as a newbie.
But I guess since all the "uber" battleship miners have come and stripped high security space of any kind of ore, these new players won't be playing past their free trials, if that long.
Oh well, I guess EVE doesn't need new players. Right?
There are plenty of 0.8 systems with ore. You just gotta look.
They shouldn't have to search for ore, it should be in the 1.0 newbie systems, no ore there creates confusion, confused new players not progressing quit, it's quite simple.
It's like taking all the mobs out of the newbie zones in in Everquest, players need those fire beetles and orc pawns to progress. Now what if high level players sat in the newbie zones killing all the low level mobs and new players had to go "look for other mobs"? Many would quit, now the reason high level players don't do this is because they can not progress on trivial low level mobs, however strip mining in EVE can be very lucrative and has 0 risk.
Telling new players they have to "search" for something that should be there for them to start out is wrong.
Of course, lol. There should be plenty of ore in noob systems. IMO you should only be able to mine ore if you're in a frigate in noob systems. Or maybe if you have less than 200k skill points?
But now I hear people talking about banning battleships from empire space.
WTF are the pirates this low now? Trying to get CCP to ban battleships from empire space so that they get to kill them?
I think stip mining needs to be stopped in high security systems sure.
But other than the one time you have to mine for a tutorial mission I have never seen a reason to mine in 1.0, and I'm a newbie.
So if people are going to quit because they have to travel for their ore (and it should be obvious that they will need to travel, and we're talking 1 to 3 jumps here) and that reason alone, then perhaps this isn't going to be the game for them anyway. Sure the ore should be there in 1.0 but I dont think any newbie is reliant on it.
Strip mining is something I dont like because it lays waste to ANY system, not just newbie systems. But I guess for the most part its here to stay.
~ Ryoji Tanakama |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.03.23 11:29:00 -
[22]
ok, eough is enough.
Stripmining is ok, in 0.9 or lower.
CCP should just replace all ores in 1.0 with a basic aore that can only be sold at the market, and can not be used ofr producing.
N00bs need isk, not minerals to produce.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Zehnamkae
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Posted - 2004.03.23 12:25:00 -
[23]
i think i'll respond to this thread because its so much nicer and calmer than the one that others have made
high sec strip mining is a bit out of hand, though i dont think that forcing manufacturers/retailers out to 0 sec space is the answer as well, its a bit hard to sell things to players when they have to make 10 jumps into space where they can get killed to boot just so they can buy a ship. though i suppose no one thought of that?
also, the last thing anyone wants to do out in 0 sec space is mine massive amounts of trit just to feed the massive demand for battleship production, i mean really is it worth it to mine veld in 0 sec? how about .4 space? is the risk of dealing with npc's and pc's worth mining that much veld for scord just to supply the massive demand for the lower minerals?? it has been pointed out repeatedly that high level players can make 30 times in 0 sec than they can in 1 sec mining ark and bis. well they will still be making just as much in 0 sec as they would in 1 sec mining veld and scrod, so does moving the manufacturing out that far really do that much good?
its an interesting idea i grant you that but like all idea it does have its faults, the systems that are in this game are a bit more complicated to require such a simple solution. it does make one think. we need people to think of solutions so we can discuss them and review them. personally i dont think that moving manufacturing out into non empire space is the answer, but it helps us address the problem and think about it.
the next thought i have is that 1 sec space has been around for quite a while, its prolly been mined out a long time ago(or atleast should have been), just getting rid of the majority of the roids in 1.0 space is good enough to get everyone out father and farther away from 1.0 space. let newbs mine them(with what ever restrictions to protect the "natural resourses and natural beauty of space") and have the cruisers and bs's move out into lower end empire and non empire space.
using the above logic there should be _lots_ of roids in non empire space though, solely for the fact that few people have been out there.
to quote a great man
"but thats just my opinion, i could be wrong"
~Zehnamkae
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Inconstant Moon
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Posted - 2004.03.23 12:40:00 -
[24]
Quote:
But other than the one time you have to mine for a tutorial mission I have never seen a reason to mine in 1.0, and I'm a newbie.
So if people are going to quit because they have to travel for their ore (and it should be obvious that they will need to travel, and we're talking 1 to 3 jumps here) and that reason alone, then perhaps this isn't going to be the game for them anyway. Sure the ore should be there in 1.0 but I dont think any newbie is reliant on it.
it is only for the tutorial mission that i am concerned. at this point, poor newbie has just about figured out how to warp to an asteroid belt, and is peeing his pants about jumping out of system where all the nasty other players are!
so he gets to the belt, sees nothing, thinks the scanner is broke or his head isn't working, and asks on newbie-corp "hey guys, what's an asteroid look like?". sit in newbie-chat of an evening and listen to it. honestly it's the most common question.
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.03.23 13:27:00 -
[25]
ok how about...having NPCs spawn in any belt with a battleship mining in it, and only going for the battleships. The spawn should equal the one of 0.0..
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Tano
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Posted - 2004.03.23 13:38:00 -
[26]
Quote:
ok how about...having NPCs spawn in any belt with a battleship mining in it, and only going for the battleships. The spawn should equal the one of 0.0..
Damn thats the only thing that would get me back mining in 1.0. Fit that old miner 1 and wait for action.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.03.23 14:00:00 -
[27]
Quote:
ok, eough is enough.
Stripmining is ok, in 0.9 or lower.
CCP should just replace all ores in 1.0 with a basic aore that can only be sold at the market, and can not be used ofr producing.
N00bs need isk, not minerals to produce.
That's incorrect and incredibly shortsighted.
What you're suggesting is that a new player be restricted to a specific income rate showcasing the least interactive, most repetitive feature in the game for the sake of money.
Nobody mines sandstone or copper ore for the sake of the few coppers it might provide on the market in Horizons. They mine them to either complete their newbie quests or to make better tools/weapons/armor/spells than provide by the game for personal use or to sell to other new players. A bronze pickaxe is a godsend to a newbie level miner.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Raudka
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Posted - 2004.03.23 14:25:00 -
[28]
Oh dear.
First of all Sally, I come from a FPS background (Doom, Quake, TFC, CS, DOD, NS). In fact EVE is the first ever MMO I play. I just don't see how EVE is related to the FPS mentality that is rampant on the boards.
Secondly Raynor, we have posted oodles of suggestions on how to combat the problem (which I have time and time again highlighted) none of which effects anything but the 1.0 systems themselves.
Thirdly it has been advertised as the players choice if they want to advance fast via risky method (0.0) or slowly via more secure methods (empire space). Any RL analogy is silly but we could then point out that the pirates of South China Sea are indeed not richer than Microsoft or other behemoths who operate in secure space (albeit often with shady methods).
So what exactly is the problem with people choosing their own profession?
--
Champion of user friendlieness and proper information distribution
Defender of newbies
EVE knowledgeBase |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.03.23 15:35:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Thirdly it has been advertised as the players choice if they want to advance fast via risky method (0.0) or slowly via more secure methods (empire space). Any RL analogy is silly but we could then point out that the pirates of South China Sea are indeed not richer than Microsoft or other behemoths who operate in secure space (albeit often with shady methods).
So what exactly is the problem with people choosing their own profession?
Hrm...so are you saying with your analogy using pirate vs microsoft that a corporation is maximizing their profits by remaining in secure space?
Because it's also advertised the exact opposite. Which is part of the reason I'm fairly convinced zoning the manfacturers will begin restoring the balance to the game. High end manufacturers maximize their gains in empire space, which is 180 degrees opposite of what was intended. And the resulting negative effects have been rippling through the rest of the game from the start.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Cruachan Argylle
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Posted - 2004.03.23 16:10:00 -
[30]
Just a thought about balancing risk vs reward.
Make a mining speed multiplier based on security level of system. For instance in 0.0 space +30% ore per minute, through to 1.0 space -30% ore per minute. Would certainly move ppl from 1.0 down to 0.6/0.7, without making it mandatory to move to 0.0.
I know this won't help new players, but i don't think it will harm them too much.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.03.23 16:11:00 -
[31]
Its all going to be alright. Read my sig....
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Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.03.23 16:14:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Just a thought about balancing risk vs reward.
Make a mining speed multiplier based on security level of system. For instance in 0.0 space +30% ore per minute, through to 1.0 space -30% ore per minute. Would certainly move ppl from 1.0 down to 0.6/0.7, without making it mandatory to move to 0.0.
I know this won't help new players, but i don't think it will harm them too much.
You generally try to accomodate new players, not hinder them for the sake of the existing players.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Cinc
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Posted - 2004.03.23 16:18:00 -
[33]
This is all in reference to the 0.8+ HSC removal yes? If not I apologize for posting in this thread.
I disagree with ccp's move here. What I'd like to see is some kind of per-corp and/or per-player limit on how many secure containers can be deployed. What the limit would be...? Dunno the right answer other than "less than I see out there now".
Finding swarms of containers from the same corp(s) in countless asteroid belts is somewhat annoying. Restricting them 0.8+ space will just gravitate more containers to 0.5 to 0.7 imho.
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2004.03.23 16:39:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Sun Ra on 23/03/2004 16:43:08
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Because the warbears can't handle having to use a war slot to be able to kill people who don't feel like going into 0.4 or lower.
FPS mentality
And your mentality is exactly what one please? Beside of being a troll who dislikes FPS games?
Hey! I usually loathe most FPS.
I have severe problems when I shoot at someone with a rocket launcher and
1) I actually hit them
2) The impact is hard enough to cause detonation
3) They're still there instead of a pair of smoking boots and gore.
The Rainbow 6 series has always been more my style (yes, I was usually the guy with the Steyr Aug capping people from on top of the PC Gamer building)
Pff u haven't lived til you've bounced someone in the air with a rocket , then hold them in the air with the shaft and maybe then midair gib them with another rocket  quakeworld4ever!!!
As for the mining problem, anyone over a certain skill point level shouldn't be allowed to activate mining lasers in 1.0 and 0.9
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