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Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 23:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:
The game Didn't work. The game simply Didn't work.
Fixed to represent the viewpoint of someone sitting in a system far from your beloved pew pew
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 00:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Vile rat wrote:
The game Didn't work. The game simply Didn't work.
Fixed to represent the viewpoint of someone sitting in a system far from your beloved pew pew It did work, just not as fast.
OK let me put it to you this way, should enough massive fleet fights occur, ALL of EVE will become a lag fest and no-one will want to pay subs .
Perhaps CCP should have, you know, BOUGHT SOME BETTER ******* INFASTRUCTURE, to run there primary game as it should be rather than pissing all our subs up the wall on 'new projects' and producing some 'share the lag' BS
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 00:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:
OK let me put it to you this way, should enough massive fleet fights occur, ALL of EVE will become a lag fest and no-one will want to pay subs .
Perhaps CCP should have, you know, BOUGHT SOME BETTER ******* INFASTRUCTURE, to run there primary game as it should be rather than pissing all our subs up the wall on 'new projects' and producing some 'share the lag' BS
It is at this stage I point out CCP own the most powerful infastructure in the industry.
Which still isn't good enough for what they try to do with it basically 
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 00:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Which still isn't good enough for what they try to do with it basically  The very fact the fight happened at all is evidence that it does indeed work. TiDi is a technical marval and I for one love that CCP has returned to pushing gaming technology forwards.
Yes infecting 100's of other people with lag so you can have your lulz, very selfish defention of the way forward IMO
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 00:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:
Yes infecting 100's of other people with lag so you can have your lulz, very selfish defention of the way forward IMO
Please point out these hundreds and which systems they were in.
OH I don't know divide number online/number of nodes most likely =100's if not 1000's
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 00:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:I think the hundreds were busy "having their lulz" -- it was a fight of, what, 1400 people?
I think favoring the 1400 over a few random people scattered around the various nodes is preferable here....
As I said what would be prefrable is if CCP would have invested in good enough infastructure to run the game as advertised, if we see a proliferation of blob wars because of this it may threaten a lot of CCP's income if people refuse to pay for a lag fest.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 00:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:
OH I don't know divide number online/number of nodes most likely =100's if not 1000's
You have no idea about how TiDi or nodes work or even what they are do you...
I don't know how many actual nodes are run no, but if there are 1400 people in a fight I would reckon it's fair to assume at least 10% of that (non involved parties) could be affected if they share the node (or nodes ?) with combatents
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Or as I say CCP could have improved there infastructure, or you know even come up with a solution that DOESN'T impact other players.
But NO being the 'lets try this and hope for the best' kinda outfit they are they didn't.
Also would be interested to know your source for your node assignemt assertion
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
As for better stuff, do you have any idea how expensive a supercomputer is to buy and run?
Is this a joke like , how much does it cost for CCP to develop proper software solutions to there problems???
Too much ! 
/edit
Or how about
How much does it cost to bring TQ up to spec ?
About 2 pieces of vaporware 
Thank you very much I'll be here all night
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:Feels like a troll infiltrated this thread.
Yes looks like you slipped in just after me and Baltec where disscusing our diffrent viewpoints of the matter 
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:Feels like a troll infiltrated this thread. Yes looks like you slipped in just after me and Baltec where disscusing our diffrent viewpoints of the matter  Because the best solution to everything is just throwing more money at it right ? 
If it's supposed to be a major feature of your game and it doesn't work properly then that might be a good idea yes 
/edit and is that one of them famous strawmen arguements I hear these troll types like to use
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:As it seems, it does work...
But has detremantal effects to other players, so not really an ideal solution
/edit also I meant it didn't work BEFORE they implemented there shody solution
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:As it seems, it does work... But has detremantal effects to other players, so not really an ideal solution Compromises have to be made sometimes, it's not like there is over 1000 ships battles all the time everywhere.
Well we'll agree to disagree then, as far as I'm concerned getting things 'right' while developing is all important, small problems now may become greater problems down the line. The devil is in the detail
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 01:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Trunt Lyon wrote:Zag'mar Jurkar wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:[quote=Zag'mar Jurkar]As it seems, it does work... But has detremantal effects to other players, so not really an ideal solution u so stooopiiiiiiid
Thanks for bringing something interesting to the disscusion 
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
I didn't say there wasn't a problem before, or that this hasn't improved. What I said was it isn't a very good solution to said problem if it STILL causes others problems.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO. Curious how you would address the problem of increasing scale. Let's say your answer is more nodes to achieve less systems per node: Without TiDi the nodes crash anyway under the same load, making TiDi a necessary component of this method of fix. Let's say your answer is 64 bit server codebase: OK we bring 6.8k people to a future fight and without TiDi the node crashes anyway. Let's say your answer is to disincentivize the formation of coalitions: OK now more fleet fights happen more often, making TiDi a necessity as it becomes probable that there will be saturation on multiple nodes instead of just one (or in extreme cases two). So I'm still wondering how TiDi is not a component of any valid fix you may come up with. I am, along with computer scientists everywhere, on pins and needles awaiting your response to the dilemmas created by increasing scale.
You are ???
How about monotiring your nodes properly and reassigning to more robust structures under stress
or a slolution to our local problem , reassigning non involved systems away from the critical node?
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 02:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO. Curious how you would address the problem of increasing scale. Let's say your answer is more nodes to achieve less systems per node: Without TiDi the nodes crash anyway under the same load, making TiDi a necessary component of this method of fix. Let's say your answer is 64 bit server codebase: OK we bring 6.8k people to a future fight and without TiDi the node crashes anyway. Let's say your answer is to disincentivize the formation of coalitions: OK now more fleet fights happen more often, making TiDi a necessity as it becomes probable that there will be saturation on multiple nodes instead of just one (or in extreme cases two). So I'm still wondering how TiDi is not a component of any valid fix you may come up with. I am, along with computer scientists everywhere, on pins and needles awaiting your response to the dilemmas created by increasing scale. You are ??? How about monotiring your nodes properly and reassigning to more robust structures under stress You mean like they already do? Seriously, reinforced nodes (and the software to use them) have been a reality for years. The simple fact is this: Without TiDi even a reinforced node is in serious trouble when module queues exceed the threshold at which the server can process them. Meaning that no matter how robust a node is, that node has a breaking point. It's therefore only a matter of time before it is achieved by players. TiDi drastically changes that threshold in favor of the server. It's necessary in any solution. It had to happen. HTFU.
Nodes only fail because they do not have enough hardware assigned to them as far as I understand it
/edit or your attempting to do too much with your hardware. Also this doesn't change the arguement why should CCP not reassign uninvloved sytems from dilating nodes?
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Berke Negri wrote:don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag
Sloppy development is sloppy development as I see it, as stated earlier creating 'quick fix' and 'that'll do it, sort of..' programming usually comes round to bite your ass in the long run.
I've no objection's to you having your lolz, it's just one of my personal bug bears , CCP's slapdash approach to development while heavily investing in other projects that may never make $1.
Imagine what they could do if they didn't waste all there time and effort on projects that may never get of the ground and actually invested in solving the problems with EVE and developing new and exciting things for us to do.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I'm sure transitioning an entire system's worth of data across nodes, basically system-wide simultaneous session changes, would be a great solution during instances of extreme server lag!  Well maybe you could try session changing before you have maxed out your node, and one slight glitch in another system would be better than however long dilatedTiDi is necessary for any future combat against fleet fight lag. No TiDi -> Cascade failure.
Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 03:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Professor Alphane wrote: Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
beliefs don't have to be based on facts, as you've amply shown 'professor'.
Please quote what I have said that isn't factual
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
234
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 04:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote:I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry
If you are reffering to that statement you are in fact wrong I do believe that .... FACT
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
235
|
Posted - 2012.02.12 08:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:
Thank you very much I'll be here all night
I see you have no idea that EVE runs on a supercomputer...
Tranquility according to Evelopedia is a server cluster
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 14:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
Complaining about an interim solution because it is not yet the final solution is pointless.
Essentially I was complaining that if they hadn't invested so much in 'gambling' on new products this interim solution would be a final complete and fully workable solution already.
Also not entirely sure the assertion, we would still need Tidi is entirely true but I don't think anyone but the devs really have the data to asses that problem in it's entirety.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 14:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Other projects are not a factor in this equation...
Oh you say a massive rewrite of the fundamental code would be required , how massive is that , probably less than writing 2 new games from scratch I'd imagine.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 15:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: By your logic it makes sense to put all expansions on hold for a few years so that EVE can be rewritten from the ground up. .
You seem to have followed my logic incorrectly, IMO it makes no sense to heavily invest in other projects that might never make $1 in favour of your 'cash cow' , feel free to continue to be obtuse and try and put words in my mouth though 
Also
Quote:as well as expanding their portfolio to remain financially solvent.
Recent staff cutbacks seem to indicate that this is whats threatening there solvency, but thats an entirely diffrent disscusion
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 19:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: It's a matter of geometry.
Scales increase, therefore we need TiDi. You don't necessarily have to believe it, just try to understand that if you make a box twice as big, it can still be filled. If you make it twice as big again, it can still be filled, and so on.
In this analogy, the box is the maximum threshold at which the server stops receiving all the module queues and they start to accrue. The substance filling the box is the modules queuing. What TiDi does is stretch the box's dimensions on the fly. That's the genius of it: They are monitoring the node and balancing it.
Interesting analogy, surely you are shrinking the substance in the box not stretching the box, to be able to strectch the box on the fly you need dynamic nodes, which is what I am advocanting. Also how big these 'boxes' CAN be is something I dont think we know.
Also to whoever says it's not needed it's just time dilation, IMO giving the nodal system an overhaul is the possible first step of more possible improvemnets to EVE that include balancing player loads, I can think of a few .
/edit Darth to your final dramatic statement I would say you are correct but as ever my point is that expanding resources rather than throtteling input would have been a better solution
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 23:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xolve wrote: If you've never been in a large fleet battle (multiple fleets even) or you've never stepped foot into Null-Sec just shut up now, your opinion is worthless, your argument invalid.
I'm not knocking people for liking the system that allows you to do what the game (CCP) have promised for so long that you should be able to do, and you should.
Most of my disscusion on the subject has been regarding it's quality, why development has suffered because of CCP business diversification stratergy and the technicalities of such undertakings.
At no time have I posted to delibartely inflame annoy or otherwise insult anybody, I don't believe others could say the same.
Farnkly null sec is of no interest to me personally at this time, nor has it ever been, doesn't mean I have no right to have my say.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 01:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tarsus Zateki wrote:I wonder where Prof. was thinking CCP should source this better server hardware that doesn't actually exist in the real world. They already run one of the most powerful server clusters in the world,.
Oh only one of the most powerful server clusters in a world where nothing better actually excists , your logic confounds me, Surely it must be the most powerful then.
/edit check the first port of call for info on tranquiltity (Evelopedia), scroll to the bottom and you will see what capacity TQ could be capable of with this hardware that according to you doesn't even excist was implemented, oh wait it doesn't excist 
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 02:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tarsus Zateki wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Tarsus Zateki wrote:I wonder where Prof. was thinking CCP should source this better server hardware that doesn't actually exist in the real world. They already run one of the most powerful server clusters in the world,. Oh only one of the most powerful server clusters in a world where nothing better actually excists , your logic confounds me, Surely it must be the most powerful then. /edit check the first port of call for info on tranquiltity (Evelopedia), scroll to the bottom and you will see what capacity TQ could be capable of with this hardware that according to you doesn't even excist was implemented, oh wait it doesn't excist  You're becoming less and less coherent as you go. Either you're a brilliant troll or you're drinking.
Sorry you told me that no upgrades to TQ where possible as they ' don't actually excist in the real world', and I was laughing so much I must have found it hard to type a decent retort. 
Finally I'm neither drunk nor as stated earlier a troll (if you believe I am please quote where I have insulted or posted just to deliberataly annoy anyone) but thanks for your concerns 
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 06:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
I know I'm sure they'll arrive Soon(tm)
Also as I've made a little bit of a song and dance about this issue, I thought I'd continue in the same vein and do it again, well a song at least.
So based on this post be CCP Veritas
Quote:there are 75 systems on that node today.
I humbly present
Alphies Ode to Tidi , feel free to sing along you'll know the tune and the words are pretty simple
Ahem
74 systems of lag for you all 74 systems of laaaag 1 fleet fight they go on all night 74 systems of lag for you all
148 systems of lag for you all 148 systems of laaaag 2 fleet fights they go on all night 148 systems of lag for you all
222 systmes of lag for you all 222 systmes of laaaag 3 fleet fights they go on all night 222 systems of lag for you all
296 systmes of lag for you all 296 systmes of laaaag 4 fleet fights they go on all night 296 systems of lag for you all

YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |

Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
238
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 07:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
I understand what your saying ranger, though I feel the 'before you wouldn't have crashed' arguement is a little overrepesented considering people actually rarely engaged in these activities cos EVERYBODY lagged and crashed out.
Now massive fleet fights are possible , if they prolifirate then so will the nasty side effects of TiDi (as represented by my musical efforts) , how much ? we don't know , How many combatents does it take to trigger TiDi ? I'm not sure
What if null sec tactics where to change because of this and as people have more perception and awarness during engaments , the blob effect becomes less popular and enemies start spreading these massive fights over multiple systems at a time, large pockets across half a dozen systems, the lag side effects would be huge on non participants.
No one can see the future.
Another possible/probable side effect of this development decision opens up a whole other can of worms concerning the viability of trying to sync an intentinally out of sync server with another for the purposes of DUST. 
Whole other subject I know (would also be interested how they intend to beta this DUST, what are they going to use as there 'beta' EVE)
The succses of any MMO is never gauranteed, it only take a few bad decisions to bring the whole house of cards crashing down, now I'm not saying it's tinfoil hat time, but with the DUST gamble further complicated and the mid to long term impact of Tidi unknown, it could be a rocky ride for CCP
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
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