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Remove Learning Skills!

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Tarron Sarek Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.24 12:28:00 - [61] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 24/01/2008 12:28:52 Originally by: Flesh Necrosis a) Make learning skills untrainable by trials. Done. Newbies won't be "wasting" their time in them anymore. b) Give everyone +n to attributes. Fine, no losses there. More is better. c) Remove learning skills and let us redistribute skill points invested in them, to skills of our choice. Fine by me, I'll buy that option. d) Flush the skill points invested in learning skills down the toilet. I guarantee, I will flush my second account down the toilet too. As for my main, I don't think I'll quit EVE but certainly will take a big hit to motivation. e) Make skills gainable through grinding. I'll power grind a while, then get bored and go try WoW. I like that summary :) Pretty much the same here. And two more things. 1. It's not that the 'vets' started with 60m SP. They had to play and pay for a couple of years. If you want to be like them, do as they did. Simple as that. Don't ask for a shortcut. 2. You can be fully PvP ready, competently flying a BC, in about 4 months. I don't think that's an awful long time. Most players don't know how to do it, ot they're simply not that focused. But that's a complete different pair of shoes. It is possible, that's what counts. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:14:00 - [62] signed.. have 30mill + (and high learnings).. learning skills is just stupid as hell I declare war on stupidity
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:01:00 - [63] I support this idea. Just get rid of them. Perhaps only give +5 to all chars to hit a middle ground. So those that spend a lot of time(5/5 in all), lose 5 attributes and newbies gain 5 for free. Then us oldies will still have reaped a rewards for the time we spent. Only those that just finished their last adv learning 5 skill will be truly screwed, but it is impossible to avoid not screwing someone.
Mark Interiis	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:27:00 - [64] We could of course also just take away everyones skillpoints and restart the game, gotta screw someone over.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:51:00 - [65] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I support this idea. Just get rid of them. Perhaps only give +5 to all chars to hit a middle ground. So those that spend a lot of time(5/5 in all), lose 5 attributes and newbies gain 5 for free. Then us oldies will still have reaped a rewards for the time we spent. Only those that just finished their last adv learning 5 skill will be truly screwed, but it is impossible to avoid not screwing someone. If a skill is removed and has been there for a long time, it needs to be refunded, taking stuff away from people for no reason makes them quit. I invested time in learning skills, some people invested 3x more in learning (advanced at 5), this time has to be refunded. As the eve skill system is unable to refund anything, it is impossible to apply any refund, and only possible to screw 90% of the playerbase at once (because learnings are trained early). Removing those skills is more than just removing those skills... I still think that the best would be to make newbies 'advanced learning ready' : take the useless lvl 5 (you know, the lvl 5 in gunnery that won't improve really a character at start, or that drone navigation level 5...) you give them and move those SP in learning skills to have the basic attribute learnings at 4. Then, they see that they should not be able to buy the advanced from start, the advanced learnings could become 'not trainable on trial accounts' as they are expensive, time consuming for people going through the trial. This improves new player experience and forbids the learning skills grinding for trial users. PS : I didn't say they should have more than 800k SP, they will just have one less lvl 5 skill and all the lvl 4 learnings (this is 226275 SP moved, leaves level 3 in the removed level 5 and some SP for more low level starting skills). -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:10:00 - [66] This isnt going to happen. Its very rare for me to hear anyone complain about the fact they need to train learning skills. This is an integeral part of eve and isnt likey to change for a few players that have probably received some bad advice. www.eve-players.com
Arna Padrona Amarr Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:17:00 - [67] As usual, this gets people arguming very heavily. Honestly though: a) Are learning skills a good idea? -No. It's a terrible idea. All it does is frustrate new players, and provide a very unwelcome atmosphere to potential long-term customers. b) Would it be fair to the old players to remove them? -No. Not without some form of SP reinbursement. Does this really matter though? "You have to do it because I did it." is a very juvenile and jealous attitude. Get over it. We all trained the skills, and I for one still want them gone, because they are pointless timesinks. c) CCP changed the advanced learning skill requirement from basic skill 5 to basic skill 4 - cutting the training time to a decent learning-level by about 3-4 weeks. That was their solution, so they wouldn't upset the oldies, and still oblige the newbies. In my opinion, it was a cowardly cop-out, a bandaid on a deep bleeding wound. However: With this change in place, odds are about ZERO, that CCP will do anything more about it in the next ... 5 years. A shame. At times, I wish to make a new character, get a clean start. The one thing that stops me are those dumbass learning skills, even after the change to rank 4 requirements. My opinion: Get rid of the junk, once and for all. Arna
Tarron Sarek Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:22:00 - [68] Arna Padrona, you're accusing other players of being jealous, while being kinda selfish yourself. I wonder whether that's a good basis for discussion. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:24:00 - [69] I had to train all my basic learning skills to level 5 before i was allowed to train my adv. learning skills at all. Now they've lowered the requirements to lvl 4. that's 1 disadvantage. The adv. training skills were not available for a very long time in eve, that's another disadvantage. The +4 and +5 implants weren't available and the +3 implants were a lot more expensive back in the day. That's another disadvantage. I started with 13k skillpoints, now ppl start with 800-900k skillpoints, another disadvantage. I fully understand that it's still a btich to train them. I feel for anyone who is facing the task. But if you make it easier for the newer players, we older folks should get something for having gone thru the torture of training the skills. I selfishly hope they don't change it anymore than they already have. I don't like that we've gotten crap while the newer players are getting a free ride. It's realistic though. Just like real life. Like when minimum wage goes up, the ppl who have worked to get raises above minimum wage don't get **** and they're effectively back at minimum wage. bah. o well. they'll do what they want. and we'll keep playing and paying. but at least they let me rant about it. -- No love for the Matari
Arna Padrona Amarr Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:59:00 - [70] Edited by: Arna Padrona on 25/01/2008 12:02:00 The point I was trying to make is that the only arguments I ever heard FOR learning skills are just that "I did it. You have to as well." or "It adds realism". (That last one always strikes me as odd. What's real about any of eve, and that part in particular?) I'm merely suggesting that with all the drawback of learning skills, it would be best for everyone in the long run to have them removed, even if it DOES hurt our own egos to see that new players don't have to go through the **** we did when we started. Just for the sake of argument, here are some advantages of removing them: 1) Old players can create an alt, or start over, without devoting all that time on learning.... essentially nothing. Not everyone can afford to get a second account, so they can train learning without playing - and then delete the old account after as month when the boring bit is complete. While this DOES provide some income for CCP, it doesn't provide lasting long-term income to leech on old users this way. 2) Race and Breed will matter. No matter what race you pick, with most players using +3 implants and +7 learning at the very least, the racial stats pretty much makes no difference at all, due to the way the skill-training equations are designed. 16 perception or 20 perception... makes little to no difference. 4 or 8 perception on the other hand - makes a WORLD of difference! Wouldn't it be cool, if your choice of stats had THAT much of an impact on your future training? You could create a char that trained combat at lightning speed, but couldn't learn to use a mining laser to save his own life - and vice versa. Dedicated industrialists, CEOs and traders - specialising in small craft, because anything else takes too damned long. It would offer diversity, a great way to specialise! Now... everyone are the same run-of-the-mill jacks of all trades. Boring. 3) What do you think is most attractive to new players? A game you can jump right into and start improving your combat worthiness, or a game where you "must" spend weeks early in the game on learning skills when you desperately need REAL skills? 4) Making the game attractive to new players IS important. An influx of new players makes EVE grow. As eve grows, CCP gets more money. More money means more development, better servers, and in the end - SURVIVAL of the game. To me, these sound like very good reasons. Unless anyone can offer some really good reasons for keeping the learning skills ( preferably some that attract new players and in the end may mean EVE will live longer, and CCP make more money ) I'm very interested in hearing those reasons. Arna
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:56:00 - [71] You have a point. We all did the learning skills and here we are still playing the game. Yes you have a good point. www.eve-players.com
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:29:00 - [72] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I support this idea. Just get rid of them. Perhaps only give +5 to all chars to hit a middle ground. So those that spend a lot of time(5/5 in all), lose 5 attributes and newbies gain 5 for free. Then us oldies will still have reaped a rewards for the time we spent. Only those that just finished their last adv learning 5 skill will be truly screwed, but it is impossible to avoid not screwing someone. If a skill is removed and has been there for a long time, it needs to be refunded, taking stuff away from people for no reason makes them quit. I invested time in learning skills, some people invested 3x more in learning (advanced at 5), this time has to be refunded. As the eve skill system is unable to refund anything, it is impossible to apply any refund, and only possible to screw 90% of the playerbase at once (because learnings are trained early). Removing those skills is more than just removing those skills... I got allmost all of them at lvl 5, only charisma has been neglected. But I still stand by my idea . Mostly because the time I spent training with an extra 5 in some attributes will have given me an advantage no newbie would ever "catch up" on (i trained BS 5 faster than they ever will). Reward for the old. Quote: I still think that the best would be to make newbies 'advanced learning ready' : take the useless lvl 5 (you know, the lvl 5 in gunnery that won't improve really a character at start, or that drone navigation level 5...) you give them and move those SP in learning skills to have the basic attribute learnings at 4. This is where I don't see the difference. Newbies have to train learning to lvl 5, be it advanced or basic it's still only 5 levels. They are given the basic for free, which we spend a lot of time training. If we reduce our attributes by 5, they newbies still have to train 5 level and save the other 5. In any way, newbies save the time for 5 levels, but by your suggestion, us old guys have "wasted" the time for the first 5 basic. Well, point of view i guess Quote: Then, they see that they should not be able to buy the advanced from start, the advanced learnings could become 'not trainable on trial accounts' as they are expensive, time consuming for people going through the trial. This improves new player experience and forbids the learning skills grinding for trial users. That is a good idea. Quote: PS : I didn't say they should have more than 800k SP, they will just have one less lvl 5 skill and all the lvl 4 learnings (this is 226275 SP moved, leaves level 3 in the removed level 5 and some SP for more low level starting skills).
Flesh Necrosis	Posted - 2008.01.25 14:54:00 - [73] Originally by: ViolenTUK This isnt going to happen. Its very rare for me to hear anyone complain about the fact they need to train learning skills. This is an integeral part of eve and isnt likey to change for a few players that have probably received some bad advice. QFT Learning skill are not a prerequisite for anything but for more learning skills. Next time a newbie asks for advice, do not tell them to train learning skills.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:15:00 - [74] Originally by: Flesh Necrosis Next time a newbie asks for advice, do not tell them to train learning skills. Now, that is a good advice. (no, no sarcasm here).
Zilkin Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:35:00 - [75] I'm all for removing learning skills, giving people the sp¦s invested in them back and giving everyone +10 attributes. Learning skills are completely ******** huge speed bump, no matter when you train them.
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:42:00 - [76] Originally by: Arna Padrona Edited by: Arna Padrona on 25/01/2008 12:02:00 4) Making the game attractive to new players IS important. An influx of new players makes EVE grow. As eve grows, CCP gets more money. More money means more development, better servers, and in the end - SURVIVAL of the game. To me, these sound like very good reasons. Unless anyone can offer some really good reasons for keeping the learning skills ( preferably some that attract new players and in the end may mean EVE will live longer, and CCP make more money ) I'm very interested in hearing those reasons. Arna The problem will be does it make the game more attractive or does it appear to be more attractive. Great learning skills are out of the way and there will still be older players beating up newer players in combat. At which point there will still be the same gap and the same complaints just towards a new skill set/group. The real problem with this discussion and any that include the SP gap is that player experience is often lumped in with SP. Its an aspect that must be looked at in addition to SP and its one that has a dramatic effect on the outcome of any interaction between to players. This time in game experience is more often the determining factor in a fight then SP. Currently the Learning skills give a buffer of time where player must improve their personal skill instead of their SP to increase their combat ability. With out these early time sinks you get people who use their SP as a crutch instead of learning to work with in its boundaries to a greater effectiveness. Is it necessarily the best way to do this probably not but it is effective. The time I spent training my learning skills I spent figuring out better ship setups. Should there be a blanket increase in training time or attributes.... but I don't think its really the best option as it will slowly reduce the individuality of characters as it becomes easier to speciallize in multiple areas.
Javis Wral	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:13:00 - [77] eve is a grind based game learning skills are just a bit of the grind. The company makes money be streaching out the grind, and those trial accounts that pop in and out are not the type of player that will like eve they are looking for a flight sim in all likelyhood. I doubt eve would make more money by getting rid of them, and in the end thats what this is about
Darth Jurassic	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:58:00 - [78] Looks like the next is going to be ½Remove all implants+à Training skills are OK. The shipt trained on startup have low rank and are trained fast enough without any learning skills trained. BTW the guides are oftenly full of ideas ½loose 2 months+. Even when I trained my fourth char I started from basic weaponry and spaceship command, and only then I came to learning ant implanting. New players have a good ability to make the game interesting with learning skills.
Renlyn	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:09:00 - [79] I'm pretty new to Eve and I don't really see the problem with the learning skills, sure they take alot of time to train on the higher levels but from what I have read you only really get them to higher levels if you want to plan months ahead in your skill development. Rather than removing them why not just shorten the time it takes to learn the non advanced one?
NightKhaos Gallente Khaos Wielders	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:13:00 - [80] Edited by: NightKhaos on 10/03/2008 10:14:38 I'm fairly new to EvE, and I am not afarid of the big bad vets, nor am I annoyed with the huge learning skills. Or the millions of skills I have to train. or that fact it takes a weak to train Refining V so i can learning Kernite Reprocessing III so I can use the Kernite Mining Crystal, and that it will take another week after that to train Drones V so I can deploy 5 drones to fight the rats when mining, or the fact I have neglected my gunnery skills and I have a cruiser waiting to be outfitted for PvE and PvP. I just get on with it. Specialisation is key in this game, if you don't do it, you lose out. Never train a skill unless you need it. You don't need learning skills up to Tier 2 Level V two months into the game. You do not even need Learning skills up to Level III tier 1 two months into the game. What do you need? Well that is up to you. Do you mine? Do you want to PvP? Look, I understand the argument that Learning Skills are annoying, but to me, a new player, it is a null agrument. Stop complaining, get on with it, and if ya don't like it, tough. Look, EvE is a long term game. Instead of training learning skills so you can train for the BC faster, why don't you just train for that BC? trust me, there will be low points where you can't think of what you should be training, or times when you say "60 days for this skill?!" and when these happen, maybe you SHOULD train those learning skills. But do you need to train them now? No. Just like you don't NEED to train Engineering V or Electronics V. Yes, they are helpful, but that is the definition of all skills in this game. So learn them when ya need them. Reshape EVE for the future! Sell the 0.0 gates to player owned corps, and encourage an open ended universe.
Laila Eldgorn	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:17:00 - [81] Learning skills are pretty dumb. You have to spend BIG time on learnings skills to learn new skills better. That just doesn't make any sense. Practically everyone needs to train learning skills up at some point. Most effective way is to just train few months when you start playing... heh. So yeah, removing them would be pretty good. Just compensate loss of those skills for those who have trained them as free sp or something.
Riame	Posted - 2008.03.13 15:30:00 - [82] vetoed! EvE requires investment and time, what do you propose fills the time instead, free lapdances and ISK handouts? This is not a game dedicated to holding your hand as you cajole into enormous spaceships. Suck it up, and invest in the long haul.

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