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Assault frigs, Are they for me?

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Rollotamasi	Posted - 2008.01.23 13:24:00 - [1] I am still a fairly new player (Around 4.5 mil SP's). For the most part I have been PvPing in cruisers and a BC on occasion. The only skill I would need to train AF's is frig 5 (12 days). My question is this - Will I feel like I wasted 12 days when I'm done? The ishkur costs a bit more then a Thorax and a Vexor (Both of which I am trying out in PvP). I'm sure the Ishkur costs a bit less to fit out but in the end they seem like they are about equal in price. Both my cruisers have double to triple the DPS of a AF and more armor. The AF wins on the resist side and also has better maneuverability. Over all it seems to me that the cruiser is a better combat ship but seeing as I am still new and learning the ins and outs of PvP I don't really know. Does the AF's have a role that they excel at such as heavy tackling or are they just more of a fun type ship? Thanks for any info and advice you can give!
Processor Failbox	Posted - 2008.01.23 13:39:00 - [2] Originally by: Rollotamasi I am still a fairly new player (Around 4.5 mil SP's). For the most part I have been PvPing in cruisers and a BC on occasion. The only skill I would need to train AF's is frig 5 (12 days). My question is this - Will I feel like I wasted 12 days when I'm done? The ishkur costs a bit more then a Thorax and a Vexor (Both of which I am trying out in PvP). I'm sure the Ishkur costs a bit less to fit out but in the end they seem like they are about equal in price. Both my cruisers have double to triple the DPS of a AF and more armor. The AF wins on the resist side and also has better maneuverability. Over all it seems to me that the cruiser is a better combat ship but seeing as I am still new and learning the ins and outs of PvP I don't really know. Does the AF's have a role that they excel at such as heavy tackling or are they just more of a fun type ship? Thanks for any info and advice you can give! AF pros: - longer to lock - high resists - "ok" speed.....ishkur goes 1.4km with my skills (jag/wolf = win tho) - high damage for such a small frig dps with electron blasters tech 2 + hobs tech 2 + maxed skills for them = 220 dps (not bad for a frig) However, a thorax with a cheap fit does about 467 dps if you have tech 1 named guns (with maxed out medium guns/drone skills) 553 with tech 2 AF cons: - not worth insuring (1-2 mil pay off....lame) - Repair slow as all hell (80 armor every 4-5 seconds) - Slowler than most cruiser's (for some reason their mass just kills their speeds) Personally i've only heard good things about the ishkur/enyo/wolf/jaguar
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.23 13:45:00 - [3] Tbh i would advise you to stay with the cruisers/BCs. AFs sound fun on paper but usually they die pretty fast in pvp and they are a bit more expensiv than cruisers too. If you want to spec in small ships you might want to take a look at the Electronic Attack Ships, especially the Kitsune (caldari) is a nasty little ECM frig thats really fun to fly in small gangs.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.23 13:48:00 - [4] From what I gather the general consensus is that AF's are pretty useless for the most part, maybe not always. But Frig 5 isn't wasted, you need that for inties and covops too, not to mention it improves the T1 frig performance.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.23 13:55:00 - [5] I think the first replier meant quicker lock as a pro for the AF (if you're reasonably aligned you can pop pods under sentry fire for a few seconds - good for a giggle). My opinion is they're fun to fly, and good for tech 2 frigate gangs. Their excessive mass hurts them in agility and top speed. I'd say go for it just in case you want to fly heavy assault ships down the road. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.01.23 14:08:00 - [6] AF frigs = cosmos/complex runners.
OConner	Posted - 2008.01.23 15:41:00 - [7] AF's are fun ships but they require experience and skills. Ishkur is good but I perfer the Vengence (Great tank ) or Wolf (Great Dps ). You can destoy manys ships with an af espically if the person your fighting is a complete idoit. For example I killed a thorax the yesterday in my Vengence with easy cause he had rails on and all i had to was orbit at close range . Basically if you use a AF you have to think of what to do instead of locking and press F1, F2,...and so on. But I would suggest you stick with crusiers and such till your skills build up cause you need weapons upgrade and all those skills cause they are tight fit ships.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/01/2008 16:52:21 Originally by: OConner You can destoy manys ships with an af espically if the person your fighting is a complete idoit. For example I killed a thorax the yesterday in my Vengence with easy cause he had rails on and all i had to was orbit at close range . I did the same thing a number of times in my Rifter. If the target turns out to be PvP fit, the Rifter explodes and you lose 2.3M roughly (the way I fit it, which is a very quality fit). Meet a PvP fit Thorax, and your Vengeance explodes, losing you about 15M. See the issue? Furthermore, I know I can roam through low-sec w/out a worry except someone bringing AFs/inties to a camp (since I'm flashing red, they can do this), while a AF can be locked much much more easily with their horrible agility. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
OConner	Posted - 2008.01.23 17:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/01/2008 16:52:21 Originally by: OConner You can destoy manys ships with an af espically if the person your fighting is a complete idoit. For example I killed a thorax the yesterday in my Vengence with easy cause he had rails on and all i had to was orbit at close range . I did the same thing a number of times in my Rifter. If the target turns out to be PvP fit, the Rifter explodes and you lose 2.3M roughly (the way I fit it, which is a very quality fit). Meet a PvP fit Thorax, and your Vengeance explodes, losing you about 15M. See the issue? Furthermore, I know I can roam through low-sec w/out a worry except someone bringing AFs/inties to a camp (since I'm flashing red, they can do this), while a AF can be locked much much more easily with their horrible agility. Dunno about that one but ok . Thing about the Vengence is that it uses rockets instead of guns so you can get right at 0m to the ship and not worry about being hit while hitting for full damage and if you are webbed you can just obrit at close range and the med blasters can't really hit you all (but it all deals with circumstances you are in). A vengence can perma run a AB, Web, Scram, and SAR. Only thing which the af has to worry about is light t2 drones really, or being ganked by 3 or more ships. It was fun tanking a drake for the longest time till his buddies showed up in ishtars with light 2 hobgolbins. Af's also adds a challenge to this game as well which is why I fly them.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:28:00 - [10] Originally by: OConner Dunno about that one but ok . Thing about the Vengence is that it uses rockets instead of guns so you can get right at 0m to the ship and not worry about being hit while hitting for full damage and if you are webbed you can just obrit at close range and the med blasters can't really hit you all (but it all deals with circumstances you are in). A vengence can perma run a AB, Web, Scram, and SAR. Only thing which the af has to worry about is light t2 drones really, or being ganked by 3 or more ships. It was fun tanking a drake for the longest time till his buddies showed up in ishtars with light 2 hobgolbins. Af's also adds a challenge to this game as well which is why I fly them. You'll get webbed - cruiser pilot then moves straight away from you or toward you since he is dictating range with the cruiser's superior speed. Transversal goes to 0, so does your survivability. I love flying AF - but as much as it pains me to say this about one of my favorite ships - a 1v1 with a T1 cruiser you will lose. The AF mass kills it in this respect. Its hard to stay out of web range vs a cruiser b/c the cruiser with a mwd WILL close on you. That said - in a gang with support (ie high speed tacklers and EWAR) you can take advantage of the AF's smaller sig radius, and higher signal resolution (pretty funny sniping pods). Setup for range and they are effective vs enemy support ships like interceptors/ewar. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.23 18:46:00 - [11] You will enjoy AF's if you enjoy being webbed. With the current webbing mechanics AF's are dead. Even the wolf with full fall off fittings will be in overload range
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:07:00 - [12] AF's aren't so hot right now. They have a missing bonus, too great a mass/not enough agility. They're outperformed by T1 cruisers. They reall bad AF's (Hawk) are outperformed by T1 frigates (Kestrel) Still, Frig V is great; opens up interceptors, cov ops, electronic attack ships. Those are all worth flying.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:40:00 - [13] I would have to concur with most people here - AFrigs are only good ships on paper. Even with MWD installed, you aren't going to outrun a MWD fitted cruiser, and god forbid trying to catch a running frigate. Plus with the MWD cruiser class guns suddenly get a cruiser sized target, and in a pure match of gank/tank Afrigs will lose to weak cruisers almost all of the time. That being said, there are situations where Afrigs can be useful. Attacking people who can't fight back (lowsec Exhumers as an example, industrials as another) can be made significantly easier when your ship has a nice fast lock time. Like any ship or fitting, being successfull in an Afrig means choosing your targets well - but for afrigs, the good target list is very VERY short.
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:49:00 - [14] Stick to cruiser and Battlecruisers until you can fly other t2 frigs, AFs (minmatar ones are "OK") Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:51:00 - [15] The question is not "are AFs for me?", it's "are AFs for anybody?". The answer is of course NO. Assault frigates suck, period. Interceptors are infinitely better at tackling, and T1 cruisers are better at everything else. The single possible exception is the Harpy in the fleet sniper role. The improved tracking of small rails over cruiser rails can be useful in some situations. But I'm not sure that small benefit is worth the tradeoff in damage and range.
Kronos Hopeslayer Blueprint Haus Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:02:00 - [16] Skip the AF, and check out EWAR Frigs, and Stealth Bombers.
Terraform Gallente Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.01.23 21:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The single possible exception is the Harpy in the fleet sniper role. Cormorant outperforms it, and is 1/5 of the price... quite sad really..
Orakkus	Posted - 2008.01.23 21:48:00 - [18] Any word on whether or not any attention is being given to revising, or re-conceiving the AFs? And out of curiousity, how do the AFs fair against fighters?
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.23 21:54:00 - [19] Edited by: Trevor Warps on 23/01/2008 21:54:23 If you dont mind coughing up some xtra isk (especially insurance wise), AFs are fun. If you fit them with long range gun and you meet some fast interceptors, you will see where you money went. If you meet that ceptor with a cruiser ... though luck. They can make good close up dogfighters too, but you cannot take on something too big, even most tier 3 cruisers, with a good pilot, falls in that category.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.23 21:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Trevor Warps on 23/01/2008 21:56:28 Originally by: Orakkus And out of curiousity, how do the AFs fair against fighters? My bet is that they would do good, since they are a bit small for the fighters to track them correctly ... never tried tho
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Terraform Originally by: Merin Ryskin The single possible exception is the Harpy in the fleet sniper role. Cormorant outperforms it, and is 1/5 of the price... quite sad really.. Well, the main issue is the Cormorant is very difficult to fit. You have to drop the guns to 125mm rails, costing you damage and more importantly 30% of your range. So the Harpy is actually better in every way. Originally by: Trevor Warps If you fit them with long range gun and you meet some fast interceptors, you will see where you money went. If you meet that ceptor with a cruiser ... though luck. 1) AF vs inty, the inty wins or draws 95% of the time. AFs are incredibly slow, so the inty can always run out of scramble range and warp off. 2) Cruiser vs. inty, the cruiser wins or draws 95% of the time. A long-range inty can't break the tank on a well-flown cruiser, and a short-range inty gets webbed and insta-popped.
Orakkus	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:58:00 - [22] Hmm.. one other question I have. Lots of folks say that the mass rating is close to that of Cruisers. Doing a comparison of the Wolf and the Jaguar, I see that (according to the Eve Item Database), they have a mass increase of roughly 75% over a Rifter. However, this falls far short of being the mass of a cruiser which, for example the Stabber, is 10x the mass of the Rifter, making the AFs only 1/5th the mass of a cruiser. Now, is the Item Database incorrect or is the Cruiser comparison an oversimplification?
Ishan Mons Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Orakkus Hmm.. one other question I have. Lots of folks say that the mass rating is close to that of Cruisers. Doing a comparison of the Wolf and the Jaguar, I see that (according to the Eve Item Database), they have a mass increase of roughly 75% over a Rifter. However, this falls far short of being the mass of a cruiser which, for example the Stabber, is 10x the mass of the Rifter, making the AFs only 1/5th the mass of a cruiser. Now, is the Item Database incorrect or is the Cruiser comparison an oversimplification? they may have the 1/5th the mass of a cruiser but they have the thrust of a frigate so they are slower than cruisers Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:23:00 - [24] There are some serious down-sides for AFs that I hope get partially remedied soon. That being said, I enjoy flying the Wolf and Jag very much. The AFs just can not go 1vs1 against intys and likely the new electronic attack ships (haven't tried enough of these to know) if the other pilot even knows a little about what he should be doing. I was engaged by a Claw the other week at a gate and decided wth and gave it a go. I was getting hammered and couldn't do a thing to hit the Claw so I deaggressed and made my way back to the gate and was just able to jump through at around 25% structure. That's gonna be par for the course in most cases with these ships. The do shine as a solo mission/exploration ship and ninja 0.0 ratting and in gangs they are very good at melting the opposing forces drones and as a somewhat heavy tackle.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:20:00 - [25] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 00:23:54 Originally by: Merin Ryskin The question is not "are AFs for me?", it's "are AFs for anybody?". The answer is of course NO. Assault frigates suck, period. Interceptors are infinitely better at tackling, and T1 cruisers are better at everything else. The single possible exception is the Harpy in the fleet sniper role. The improved tracking of small rails over cruiser rails can be useful in some situations. But I'm not sure that small benefit is worth the tradeoff in damage and range. /Thread Basically, this. Versus pilots who don't know what they're doing, AFs suck. Versus those who don't, you can just use a T1 frig. Originally by: OConner Dunno about that one but ok . Thing about the Vengence is that it uses rockets instead of guns so you can get right at 0m to the ship and not worry about being hit while hitting for full damage and if you are webbed you can just obrit at close range and the med blasters can't really hit you all Problem: AF orbiting you at 500m distance and slowly doing some damage to you. Solution: Turn on MWD, have 3x the speed in mutually webbed situations and drop angular velocity to 0 rad/sec. Push F1-F6, recieve killmail. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cmd Bokonon Gallente Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:04:00 - [26] AF seems to be a good antiinty sniper for me (enyo) and good small gang ship (best tank is not to be a primary :) - you have good locking time + bonused small guns.
Wardeneo Gallente N.E.O NEW EVE ORDER Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:28:00 - [27] AF's make good nija ratters - ive seen people in a retibution go into some1 elses 0.0 space steal there rats adn get out again :) wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
MITSUK0	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:33:00 - [28] AF's just dont match up to other cheaper option in most situations. They are fun to fly every now and then though. People will wade in with "they pwn cruisers!" comments but in reality they only pwn badly fitted cruisers and a rifter can do that for 1/10th the price... If your looking for an effective combat frigate I would point at interceptors, have a much needed role in gangs, can raep other frigates solo, can kill the same badly fitted cruisers that AF's do.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Terraform Originally by: Merin Ryskin The single possible exception is the Harpy in the fleet sniper role. Cormorant outperforms it, and is 1/5 of the price... quite sad really.. Well, the main issue is the Cormorant is very difficult to fit. You have to drop the guns to 125mm rails, costing you damage and more importantly 30% of your range. So the Harpy is actually better in every way. Originally by: Trevor Warps If you fit them with long range gun and you meet some fast interceptors, you will see where you money went. If you meet that ceptor with a cruiser ... though luck. 1) AF vs inty, the inty wins or draws 95% of the time. AFs are incredibly slow, so the inty can always run out of scramble range and warp off. 2) Cruiser vs. inty, the cruiser wins or draws 95% of the time. A long-range inty can't break the tank on a well-flown cruiser, and a short-range inty gets webbed and insta-popped. - Agree 100% on the first point. - Second point - a sniper harpy with a magstab, tracking enhancer and computers, and shield booster with cap charges, will dispatch 90% of interceptors (outright pop them, or drive them off which defeats the purpose of the inty to tackle). Spike for long range - anti-matter for close. The only role which the AF excels in is to snipe enemy t2 frigates - the small guns will track and hit most ships, and have enough DPS to deter or break frigates. If you fit them to tackle - their mass kills them. Larger targets than T2 frigs, sure you can hit the target, but you lack the DPS to compete with sniper cruisers which can also hit the larger target. Anti-inty Anti-Electronic Attack Ship Hawk - as awful as it is, excells at picking apart other assault frigates. Its just as slow - can pick its ammo to fire on your resist hole, and can tank AF damage quite well. Just don't use it solo - or vs anything else (exception for light precisions against most intys). Does a Kestrel do more damage than a Hawk? Sure - but it has a laughable tank with respect to the Hawk. Can a Caracal hit harder than the Hawk? Sure - but its bigger target and locks slower (sig res matters when firing precisions on intys). If you want AF to do anything else, a T1 cruiser will do a superior job for less. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Volir Deep Space HVAC	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:22:00 - [30] Get frigate 5, mechanic 5 and engineering 5 anyway. Those are all great skills to have to 5 (pretty much required later on) and you get to fly AFs as a bonus. You really want it for the HP bonus, the powergrid bonus and the ability to fly other T2 ships.

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