| Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
KamiCrazy
   |
Posted - 2004.03.26 00:51:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
KamiCrazy that's some nice skills then, mine are using well over half the cap my mwd uses.
ACtually its just crap skills, my blasters fire slowly... hence less cap use ;P
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 00:52:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Shevar on 26/03/2004 01:13:07
Erm great everyone is talking about bs's, sure i partly agree on that discussion (though what i find strange is why people compare ac's on tempests to blasters directly and not blasters on a mega).
What is not said is if autocannons are usefull on either cruisers or frigates. On cruisers totally forget it, autocannons suck so badly that you are smarter to use blasters on a rupture if you wanted short range stuff. And on frigates well, and basicly the only time auto cannons are worth it is when you are flying a stiletto or a vigil both setup for webbing/scrambling and mwding .... As for the rest you just take either arties or blasters, because well, small autocannons do less dmg then spitting at your opponent from a window.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
KamiCrazy
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 00:56:00 -
[33]
Have you given thought that maybe projectiles are designed to be crappier on minmatar frigates and cruisers?
Frigates get the speed bonus to make up for it. Which applies to them no matter which weapon they use. I can't say the same thing for gallente frigates. Hell why don't you complain that light neutron blasters kick the utter crap out of the best laser even on amarr frigates!
From what I can tell, frigates got other more "utility" style bonuses. Cruisers need a bit of a fixing, but ALL cruisers need a fix to their bonuses. It appears that at the battleship level they wanted to give the minmatar dmg or at least something related to help them deal dmg. Hence the ROF/DMG/Optimal bonuses.
|
Tyria Evenstar
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 00:57:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Erm great everyone is talking about bs's, sure i partly agree on that discussion (though what i find strange is why people compare ac's on minmatar ships to blasters directly and not blasters on a mega).
What is not said is if autocannons are usefull on either cruisers or frigates. On cruisers totally forget it, autocannons suck so badly that you are smarter to use blasters on a rupture if you wanted short range stuff. And on frigates well, and basicly the only time auto cannons are worth it is when you are flying a stiletto or a vigil both setup for webbing/scrambling and mwding .... As for the rest you just take either arties or blasters, because well, small autocannons do less dmg then spitting at your opponent from a window.
OMG, thankyou Shevar.
-Tyria.
|
GrendelPrime
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 03:15:00 -
[35]
If I may interject...
Quote:
À Nearly all Minmatar Cruiser pilots don't touch ACs - they all use artillery instead.
Well I must be the odd one out then... personally I have found that I get pretty good results using 3-4 425's on my Rupture. I've used Artys, and the damage can be nice, but the RoF sucks. I know that using AC's on the rupture may not be the most damaging setup there is, and I believe that it takes alot of skillpoints to get the ship to the point where using AC's on it is a viable setup. Still lots of fun can be had using a minnie ship setup this way as most people expect you to have a long range setup kitted.
I guess my point is... its all in how you set your ship up IMO. Personally I don't think there is a need for a bigger badder Autocannon.
"Though you may die, do not give up your honor"
-- Miyamoto Musashi
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 10:21:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Edited by: xeno calligan on 15/02/2004 16:35:52
Thanks for the comments  Just a reminder: the post was based on an old patch, so the graphs are a bit out of date. In particular:
- Hybrid charges got a boost of +4 kinetic damage
- Heavy and siege launchers had their refire time increased from 16sec to 20sec.
- Autocannons got a damage boost of 20-40% and 2km more falloff.
- Blasters got 4km extra falloff.
drunkenmaster wrote:
Quote:
I'd like to see how a tempest w/800's matches up against a mega with neutrons, though :)
Patch 1389 plots for a tempest using autocannons and gallente ships using blasters:
Legend
- Blue - Dual 425mm Autocannon (Tempest)
- Magenta - Dual 650mm repeating artillery (Tempest)
- Red - 800mm repeating artillery (Tempest)
- Green - Dual Heavy Ion Blaster (Gallente ship)
- Green/cyan - Ion Blaster Cannon (Gallente ship)
- Cyan - Neutron Blaster Cannon (Gallente ship)
If you can afford swapping a cap power relay for a counter ballanced mod (seeing as the projectiles use virtually no cap), you can cover most of the ground up to the blasters:
Busko Moonwalker wrote:
Quote:
lol but how do i read the charts 
maybe its cristal clear for everyone else :D but i feel a bit  a bit of help would be nice :D
The DPS graphs show the expected average damage per second (before resistances) as a function of range, under the assumption that the transversal speed is 0m/s (e.g. both your target and your ship have stopped). So using the graphs above, you can read from the graphs that at 10 km range, the Neutron Blaster Cannon (the cyan colored graph) has a damage troughput of roughly 28hp/sec (if you have all relevant skills at lvl 4 and you're not using damage mods). The Ion Blaster cannon has only 21hp/sec, so you can see how the difference in efficiency between the two turrets becomes greater as the range increases.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 10:22:00 -
[37]
I know of at least 3 pilots who use autocannons on their Tempest too - it's a nice surprise when people see them 10km away and think "Ha! Those 1400mm's won't hit much".....and then the autocannons kick in 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 10:40:00 -
[38]
well minmatar have the best long range weapon, why should thy have one of the Best Short range weapon too? Lasers are pretty useless atm and no one complains. 
Wanna fly with me?
|
fras
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 11:04:00 -
[39]
What I don't get is that (on paper) the dual 425 has the same DOT as the 800 and the dual 650 has the least of all(unless my maths is completely wrong).
I think Autocanons are rightly weaker than blasters, but minmatar more than make up for this with much stronger defensive possibilities. A high damage Megathron is hanging right out there with very little defences.
Lasers come way bottom though, afaik there isn't a large laser with anywhere near enough tracking to deal with a close range encounter.
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 11:05:00 -
[40]
Quote:
well minmatar have the best long range weapon, why should thy have one of the Best Short range weapon too? Lasers are pretty useless atm and no one complains.
Indeed, lets give some loving to pulse lasers!
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Laone
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 12:22:00 -
[41]
Wow so that graph is showing us that auto cannons have the same if not better dot than a nuetron blaster? If this is the case something MUST change. The fact that projectiles use no cap is lame enough...
|
Griffin Smith
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 12:31:00 -
[42]
Said this in a different post but here's 1 for u!
iI should be mesured like this DOT/min for each wep and each corosponding(laser or rail or blaster) wep, thats is befor skills adjustment.
my 1400mm fires 3 times in 1 minute how many times does ur rail or laser fire every min?
Then u can complain to me that arty does more damage then anything else.
All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head. |
Griffin Smith
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 12:36:00 -
[43]
Oh and another thing: 1400mm arty carrys 10 rounds and reloading takes 10 seconds how many rounds does ur blaster or rail carry befor u have to reload, and lets not forget that LASERS dont have to be reloaded, so dont complain to me that heavy arty requires to little cap to fire.
All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head. |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 12:46:00 -
[44]
I'm pretty sure reload time is taken into account in those calculations.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 13:36:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Oh and another thing: 1400mm arty carrys 10 rounds and reloading takes 10 seconds how many rounds does ur blaster or rail carry befor u have to reload, and lets not forget that LASERS dont have to be reloaded, so dont complain to me that heavy arty requires to little cap to fire.
well you saw the damage the 425er does on my scorp? normaly under 100, too bad that you cant fit any damage mods on a scorp 
Wanna fly with me?
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 13:38:00 -
[46]
Nafri,
I rarely do under 100 dmg on my 425mm's even without any damage mod - that's what I like about them.
Steady decent damage. Although, curiously enough, I got 4 wrecking shots in about 20 seconds from 76km with AM the other day.
What L hybrid/surgical strike skills do you have?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Estios
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 14:57:00 -
[47]
Tyria, as Sassinak would say, unplug your keyboard...now !!
Not only should you cease from CSM's but you are selfish troll.
No one should use CSM questions to try and get some loving for their own personal gains.
I am an avid fan of Minmatar ships and their weapons and I catergorically say that their is nothing wrong with autocannons as a weapon.
Of course blasters should do more damage because they cost more to fit and use cap. And to say laser users have equivilent close range guns which are better that AC's is plain ignorance.
Seriously I love people to make constructive 'discussions' on balancing but to go to a CSM and demand your choice of weapon is tweaked is f*****g lame.
Why on earth do we need a better AC ? the 800mm is a beast compared to its fitting reqs.
If you think blasters are so uber then just fit them aleady.
Totally OT but Minmatar and Gallente weapons and ship bonuses seem fine to me. Caldari ship bonuses and missles need looking at and Tachyons need a little loving IMHO.
AC's are fine
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 15:21:00 -
[48]
First off those dps calculations for bs's are before tracking is applied, if you put them into them blasters on a mega will totally pwn autocannons on a tempest (note im not saying this is wrong, just that some people are now even implying autocannons on a tempest do more dmg then a mega with blasters).
To the guy using a rupture with 425's try to use medium blasters instead for once (assuming you got some decent medium hybrid skills) and you will see your damage output go up big time while cap usuage wont be to troublesome. (note this is basicly because cruisers only got 1 bonus type, there are no uber bonusses to make autocannons usefull).
And on frigates well, the light ion has somewhat comparable fitting reqs as the 200 mm ac but greatly outdamages it...
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Siddy
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 16:48:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Wow so that graph is showing us that auto cannons have the same if not better dot than a nuetron blaster? If this is the case something MUST change. The fact that projectiles use no cap is lame enough...
u are reading it wrong
they got averange 10dmg/second worse than Blasters
-------------------------------------------
|
Laone
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 17:08:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Quote:
Wow so that graph is showing us that auto cannons have the same if not better dot than a nuetron blaster? If this is the case something MUST change. The fact that projectiles use no cap is lame enough...
u are reading it wrong
they got averange 10dmg/second worse than Blasters
thanks very much for setting me strait
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 17:47:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Nafri,
I rarely do under 100 dmg on my 425mm's even without any damage mod - that's what I like about them.
Steady decent damage. Although, curiously enough, I got 4 wrecking shots in about 20 seconds from 76km with AM the other day.
What L hybrid/surgical strike skills do you have?
Well i talk about "hard" targets, BS with Wards, against unwarded i da maximal 160. I think i have both skills on lvl3, dont use the turrets much 
Wanna fly with me?
|
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 18:48:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Ruffles on 26/03/2004 19:04:01
Sorry, I agreed with the comments made in the CSM. The DoT on autocannons is too low, especially the small derivatives.
A rifter with blasters and even only level 4 in small hybrid is far more productive then an autocannon configured rifter, which requires the bonus from small projectiles AND the ship bonus to even get to the damage it does.
Sorry, if they were more useful, I would use them on my rifters, etc. They aren't and they have the massive range penalty of blasters. To be honest, when I don't fit blasters I still fit railguns, as they still outdamage even the howitzers over time. Not per hit, but they sure do more over time. And this is with 2 bonuses on the projectile guns? Surely thats not right. A fair few other mins I spoke to do the same on their rifter.
Yes they have silly fitting requirements, and I agree with that. But I would rather have slightly higher requirements and better output from them then the current derivatives.
Anyway, just my opinion
* Bored with battleship only discussions of a weapon. Look at ALL platforms for the weapon when comparing the weapon, THEN look at the difference with the ship boni to see if the problem isn't apparent in other vessels.
Quote:
AC's are fine
Sorry Estios, but you seem very nieve to me. Discussing what is already considered a moot point because the boni from the battleship negative the flaw in the weapon. Discussing this point OVER AND OVER again about 800mm autocannons is NOT the issue.
Try using howitzers and autocannons on a rifter. Then try using blasters and 150mm railguns on same said rifter. Try a simliar setup on the cruisers. Let me know your results, because I have done these tests myself and I won't touch autocannons, and even the howies on frigates.
Even with 2 boni to projectiles, they are still way inferior. I don't, and still won't use them on rifters for that very reason.
Get out of your tempests and try it in a rifter, then post here.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 19:17:00 -
[53]
You will not ever get guns that do as much damage as blasters but don't use any cap, get over it, if you want to do more damage with short range guns, train for gallente ships and learn just how high the price is that blaster boats pay for that damage.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 19:28:00 -
[54]
Garius go try 425's on cruisers or the 200mm on frigates, and the say that again...
Really im not asking for something that does as much dmg as a blaster just something that is actually usefull instead of just filling your highslots...
If that means that fitting reqs need to go up a notch then so be it, but as it stands i just cant see any reason to use short range autocannons while even 250's do more dmg at close range...
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 19:29:00 -
[55]
Projectiles dont use cap.
Projectiles dont use cap.
Projectiles dont use cap.
Projectiles dont use cap.
Projectiles dont use cap.
Therefore, they should not do as much damage as lasers/hybrids
While, this certainly isn't true with 1400mm vs tachyon vs 425mm at least it's the case with autocannons/repeating artillery.
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Punto
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 20:04:00 -
[56]
To present this change at the CSM meeting is complete and utter stupidity. Obviously this was a selfish ignorant request as your requesting better weapons for arguably the best PVP ship in the game.
If you were truly a voice of the people (as your supposed to be in these meetings) how about addressing the fact that Lasers SUCK? Hell, the pulse laser can't even be compared to these weapons that your wanting to be increased! Or how about missiles? Those should be priority right now.
You say lasers don't need ammo. Yeah right! I have to carry about 32 crystals with me on my apoc when i go fighting. Sure...I can use them forever...now get out a pen and paper and figure out how much those 32 crystals cost me! All that for guns that suck in PVP.
Also, I have tested a blaster setup on a mega against an AC setup on a tempest. Surprisingly the tempest was able to hold its own! Thats just wrong to me as this ship is supposed to be a long range support ship! Its able to deal all that damage without using cap. Yeah, talk about needing major balance here...
|
Tyria Evenstar
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 22:57:00 -
[57]
Anyone who argues about 800mm or has a go at me for trying to get some balance for autocannons - this is the only reply your going to get.
I've already stated numerous times, that the damage output of 800mm on battleships is not indicative of atuocannons on Minmatar frigates or cruisers. They may be good on a Tempest, but they are shat on anything else.
And anyone who just has a go at me for bringing it up in the CSM first, I've already apologised, so drop it. Okay?
Now, continue with the debate. There have been mostly offence free contributions from most of the people here, and I hope to see more.
-Tyria.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 23:17:00 -
[58]
They are balanced that's the bit you're not getting, you do 25% less damage for a decrease in CPU fitting requirements and NO cap usage. You want a more damaging short range gun you fit blasters, where's the problem? If I want no cap usage I fit autocannons, or deal with the cap usage through modules and skill training. Like you can deal with the lower damage with modules and skill training.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Tyria Evenstar
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 23:27:00 -
[59]
Quote:
They are balanced that's the bit you're not getting, you do 25% less damage for a decrease in CPU fitting requirements and NO cap usage. You want a more damaging short range gun you fit blasters, where's the problem? If I want no cap usage I fit autocannons, or deal with the cap usage through modules and skill training. Like you can deal with the lower damage with modules and skill training.
Funny, you say I am wrong, when what you are mentioning is not what I'm saying. I want higher fitting requirement autocannons, so I have to pay with my precious ship's power and cpu for more damaging close-range projectile weapons. I want to have an autocannon on a frigate or cruiser, that with bonuses, that does as much damage as at least the worst blaster.
I'm not asking for anything that will disbalance balsters from being the best close range weapons - autocannons will not replace blasters with my ideas. Don't you get that?
-Tyria.
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.03.26 23:36:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Gariuys on 26/03/2004 23:39:26
And you do not understand that if autocannons would have a more damaging variant, that is exactly what would happen. Cause the worst blaster does only only 10% less damage then the most damaging blaster and the most damaging blaster is a unusable weapon, much more so then your worst autocannon. The difference between blasters is not their damage output it's their range. If you fail too grasp that 10% damage is way too small a difference for the a gun that does not use cap...
And no fitting requirements are not all that's to it, a blaster thorax needs most of it's lows with cap modules to be able to keep it's offence going, take that away and I got a lot of lows that can be used to up my ships specs to the point I would be able too equip 5 of your improved autocannons.
Fit as many lows with damage mods as I fill with cap modules and then compare damage output, I'm 100% sure that would show that autocannons are already overpowered as is. The only problem is that most minmatar pilots don't have the balls to run short range setups.
Edit: and just in case you think I don't know how to fly a blaster rax, I've been flying one for well over 4 months now, think I know what my ship can and cannot do.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |