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Paddyman
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Posted - 2004.03.25 22:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Paddyman on 25/03/2004 22:13:48
For tachyons, the problem with them is although they have a little extra DOT vs Megabeams there extra fitting requirements + majour cap increase taken for this is not worth it, as you can fit 6 megabeams for less then the fitting of 5 tachyons, and the 6 megabeams will do both more dmg and use less cap. They also have the same range+fall-off.
If you look at the step up from a 1200 to a 1400, although it takes more fitting here it is well worth it, there is a distinct difference between the guns, it has more DOT,range,falloff and less cap(its a higher dmg,slower rof weapon). But with the tachyon it isn't like that,it has the same range,fall-off as the lower classed megabeam with a small increase in DOT which is completely useless due the the reason stated in the 1st paragraph that " you can fit 6 megabeams for less then the fitting of 5 tachyons, and the 6 megabeams will do both more dmg and use less cap".
It needs to be modified for it to be a useful gun with An increase in DOT, range,fall-off with noticable cap decrease similar to the 1200-->1400mm.
ATM there is no use for this gun at all.
Also on a general note i feel laser should have an across the board reduction in their cap needs of a noticable figure of maybe 10-15%.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.03.25 22:43:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 25/03/2004 22:44:26
*Just* an idea...
Seems to me that laser users suffer most from lack of any other damage type besides EM and Thermal (pretty sure about that...I never use lasers...never have). Against an unhardened ship lasers are brutal but most people equip EM and thermal hardeners seriously hampering laser's effectiveness. With no other damage choice they are stuck.
What might be interesting is to make Tachs do Thermal and Kinetic damage. Leave the stats the same otherwise. This would encourage their use as at least part of a ship setup and give Amarr ships more flexibility in battle.
I suppose this might mean their own crystal types but the idea still stands.
Anyway...just a thought.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.25 22:48:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
Edited by: Mon Palae on 25/03/2004 22:44:26
*Just* an idea...
Seems to me that laser users suffer most from lack of any other damage type besides EM and Thermal (pretty sure about that...I never use lasers...never have). Against an unhardened ship lasers are brutal but most people equip EM and thermal hardeners seriously hampering laser's effectiveness. With no other damage choice they are stuck.
What might be interesting is to make Tachs do Thermal and Kinetic damage. Leave the stats the same otherwise. This would encourage their use as at least part of a ship setup and give Amarr ships more flexibility in battle.
I suppose this might mean their own crystal types but the idea still stands.
Anyway...just a thought.
Hybrids are just as inflexible, I run usually a em, a thermal, and kinetic hardener, so hybrids do even less damage to my shields than lasers do. Projectiles usually do EM or Thermal damage, as EMP and Phased Plasma are the most popular ammunition types for projectiles.
Obviously people who do not increase the resistances of their shields, lose them quickly, to almost any weapon.
So really all this fuss over lasers do poor damage is silly.
Tachyon might need it's ranged increased a bit, and its cap lowered a little, but other than that I think it's an okay turret..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.03.25 23:07:00 -
[4]
Good points Jim but still...seems like it would be nice for Amarr to have a choice and make those that come at them wonder a bit more about what they might get.
I know if we spot a pirate raiding in our system and haev spotted him in, say, an Apoc everyone tosses the Kinetic hardener and doubles-up on EM and Thermal.
If you threw Kinetic into the Amarr mix then the pilots have more options in deciding their kit and those facing them have to wonder a bit more about what they will get. Granted the standard shield tank setup covers the bases anyway (EM, Therm and Kinetic hardeners) and won't change but nonetheless thie might add some variety.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.25 23:12:00 -
[5]
Quote:
Good points Jim but still...seems like it would be nice for Amarr to have a choice and make those that come at them wonder a bit more about what they might get.
I'm sure Gallante/Hybrid users say the same thing.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.03.25 23:38:00 -
[6]
There is the issue here of not being able to slap an array of heatsinks on your laser setup. If cap is your ammo then ROF is your cap's enemy, especially if you have to sacrifice the much needed lowslot for it.
I think its fair to say that the other weapon types allow for a less extreme cap recharge rate, which in turn means more room for other modules like damage modifiers.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.03.26 00:17:00 -
[7]
Just looking at the stats for the tachy.
It's way to similair to the megabeam, only diff is the damage mod/cap use. They need to either reduce cap, or extend the range.
I would prefer the extension in rangee, it would make a big diff in why people use it then.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.03.26 00:26:00 -
[8]
High Fitting Req. = Long Range = More DMG = Best Gank Gun!
so why not "override" this default rule made by ccp and give megabeams higher range, but tachyons more dmg? 
"We brake for nobody"
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Tovarishch
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Posted - 2004.03.26 01:06:00 -
[9]
While I do agree, to a very small degree, that Tachyons need a small bump in damage to defend their tough fitting requirements... I would like to make a point. I get really, really tired of reading posts like this (I don't often post for this very reason). If everyone had their way, and CCP listened to everyone, every single weapon in the game would be equivalent to each other in fitting requirements, DOT, range, optimal, etc. Tachyons may not be as useful as Megabeams... but in situations such as fleet battles where large doses of damage matter more than the best DOT Tachyons are the better choice. People need to start looking at strategic ship setups instead of complaining about everything (I'm not saying you're complaining, Paddy. You have a point).
Yes, I do think Tachyons need a *slight* boost in damage... but that's it. The rest of their stats seem quite reasonable... assuming that small boost in damage comes along. All weapons are not created equal for a reason. I think CCP has done a damn good job on weapon balance... and giving weapons particular roles in combat.
Now if only Caldari ship bonuses and missiles could get some balancing.
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* Insert inane 'leetspeak' signature here, or some idiotic picture that wastes bandwidth. *
The Tarsis Shriners |
YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.03.26 01:40:00 -
[10]
I think the stats of the tacyhon already make it the most powerful weapon in the games. At least from the anaylysis of Xeno Calligan. Which can be found here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=45337&page=1
Seems like tachyons are created to be the most powerful weapn, but have been made so that only the most skilled amarr pilots can use them without major fitting and cap drain headaches
Maybe their meant to be a reward for pilots that have achieved "laser turret perfection," meaning all cap management skills maximized like:
Energy Systems Operations 5
Energy Management 5
Large Energy Turret 5
Controlled Burst 5
Amarr Battleship 5
And of course the fundamental ship fitting skills: engineering 5 and especially electronics 5 and weapon upgrades 5 to compensate for poor Amarr cpu's
To bad that's something close to 5 months of training
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.26 04:53:00 -
[11]
Quote:
I think the stats of the tacyhon already make it the most powerful weapon in the games. At least from the anaylysis of Xeno Calligan. Which can be found here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=45337&page=1
Seems like tachyons are created to be the most powerful weapn, but have been made so that only the most skilled amarr pilots can use them without major fitting and cap drain headaches
Maybe their meant to be a reward for pilots that have achieved "laser turret perfection," meaning all cap management skills maximized like:
Energy Systems Operations 5
Energy Management 5
Large Energy Turret 5
Controlled Burst 5
Amarr Battleship 5
And of course the fundamental ship fitting skills: engineering 5 and especially electronics 5 and weapon upgrades 5 to compensate for poor Amarr cpu's
To bad that's something close to 5 months of training
Having all those skills makes you just as good with Megabeams too though, it doesn't change the fact tachyons are probably not good enough over megabeams to use them and justify the extra cap.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.03.26 08:12:00 -
[12]
Tho more a discussion between weapon types (laser, hybrid, projectile) the point i made earlier also applies on the whole thacyon / megabeam difference a bit. It would like your views on the matter, folks.
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Kronarty
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Posted - 2004.03.26 09:51:00 -
[13]
Quote:
I think the stats of the tacyhon already make it the most powerful weapon in the games. At least from the anaylysis of Xeno Calligan. Which can be found here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=45337&page=1
Check Xeno's post date. It is OLD data
VERY old.
Lots of changes have happened since he made that detailed and thorough post.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.26 10:04:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Quote:
I think the stats of the tacyhon already make it the most powerful weapon in the games. At least from the anaylysis of Xeno Calligan. Which can be found here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=45337&page=1
Check Xeno's post date. It is OLD data
VERY old.
Lots of changes have happened since he made that detailed and thorough post.
The post might be a few months old, but quite honestly what is outdated about it? Old and outdated are two different things, yanno.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Lucre
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Posted - 2004.03.26 10:26:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Also on a general note i feel laser should have an across the board reduction in their cap needs of a noticable figure of maybe 10-15%.
Agree entirely on the Tachyon - not better enough than the Megabeam to justify the extra cap and grid. And that's *not* because the Megabeam is overpowered, given that a 425 rail does about the same damage/range for less than half the cap and lower grid (albeit higher cpu).
As for cap use, with Amarr BS4 an Apoc has 20% larger cap/recharge and 20% reduced cap usage with lasers. So unless you're assuming all those low slots are filled with cap rechargers (which may be iffy if relays are indeed nerfed as proposed) then for equivalence Megabeam should have approximately 144% of the cap use of a 425 rail. Instead it has IIRC, well over 200% of its cap use...
What I'd rather see them do, however, is not make the weapons equivalent but make them *different*. Leave the cap how it is but significantly increase the laser damage. Make lasers the high damage/high cap option so there really is a clear progression from projectiles through railguns to lasers. Who knows, some of us might then start using them again instead of those nice economical railguns...
Oh, and can we have a blaster-equivalent laser please? ;-)
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MoLeH
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Posted - 2004.03.26 10:46:00 -
[16]
why do duel heavies allways get left out of laser disscussions ? i can run 8 duel heavies with no problem on CPU or powergrid, and i can fit 2 heatsink 2's on the low slots and 5 power relays and then at 15-20km theyll rip thru sheild with 800-1200 dmg evry 4 seconds, they r kinda like lasers blaster but with just higher range than blasters :S
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Do you see people in real life whining that their enjoyment was ruined by a shark when they went swimming in dangerous waters? - Viceroy |
snotty
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Posted - 2004.03.26 12:34:00 -
[17]
duals are left out cause there range is 28k, it is a different "class" gun.
The problem with the tachyon is that it has the same range/falloff as the mega and only a slight damage mod. increase for a huge powegrid and activation cost.
The problem is that 4 tachs is equal to 5 mega's but the megas win in dot, a 1.525 modifier per second against a 1.36 modifier per second for the tachs. Only the upfront damage of the tachs is better (after 2 volly's the mega wins).
So why would i ever need/equip a tachyon beam?
I can do more damage, have the same range use the same cap/sec, use slightly more cpu, use less powergrid with the mega's.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.03.26 13:20:00 -
[18]
A point to consider is drones and missiles. Both can be used to inflict other damage types.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Lurk
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Posted - 2004.03.26 13:39:00 -
[19]
The fact that almost every ship besides caldari (which mainly use missiles) and amarr (except the geddon) has a DoT bonus.
Compare a Tempest (BS5) with an Apocalyse (BS5). The Tempest does 66% more DoT than the Apoc (using projectiles).
So the tempest does more damage, has better range and uses almost no cap.
Pretty much unbalanced if you ask me. So as long as Tachyons don't do 66% more damage than a 1400mm, or the ship bonus stats get a rework, the Tempest will be far superior to the apoc (considering weapons).
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.26 13:48:00 -
[20]
The problem with lasers has been and will always be: They only do 2 types of damage and those types of damage are also the most frequently guarded against with tactical shields.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
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Simen Looswe
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Posted - 2004.03.26 14:01:00 -
[21]
Same problem with Hybrids:
only 2 damage types
One of which most people have hardeners for, the other one has a nice inherent bonus already.
Only real option then would be projectiles as they can vary damage types.
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Lurk
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Posted - 2004.03.26 14:14:00 -
[22]
Standard Shield Resistance: EM 0, TH 20, KI 40, EX 60.
Standard Multifrequency L Damage: 20*1.0 + 24*0.8 = 39.2
Standard Antimatter L Damage: 20*0.8 + 28*0.6 = 32.8
Standard EMP L Damage: 20*1.0 + 8*0.6 + 16*0.4 = 31.2
Standard Phased Plasma L Damage: 32*0.8 + 8*0.6 = 30.4
If you equip a EM hardener: EM 50, TH 20, KI 40, EX 60.
Standard Multifrequency L Damage: 20*0.5 + 24*0.8 = 29.2
Standard Antimatter L Damage: 20*0.8 + 28*0.6 = 32.8
Standard EMP L Damage: 20*0.5 + 8*0.6 + 16*0.4 = 21.2
Standard Phased Plasma L Damage: 32*0.8 + 8*0.6 = 30.4
So with one EM and one TH hardener it's: EM 50, TH 60, KI 40, EX 60.
Standard Multifrequency L Damage: 20*0.5 + 24*0.4 = 19.6
Standard Antimatter L Damage: 20*0.4 + 28*0.6 = 24.8
Standard EMP L Damage: 20*0.5 + 8*0.6 + 16*0.4 = 21.2
Standard Phased Plasma L Damage: 32*0.4 + 8*0.6 = 17.6
And with one EM, one TH and one KI hardener it's: EM 50, TH 60, KI 70, EX 60.
Standard Multifrequency L Damage: 20*0.5 + 24*0.4 = 19.6
Standard Antimatter L Damage: 20*0.4 + 28*0.3 = 16.4
Standard EMP L Damage: 20*0.5 + 8*0.3 + 16*0.4 = 18.8
Standard Phased Plasma L Damage: 32*0.4 + 8*0.3 = 15.2
So you see Laser damage on shields even with hardeners isn't so bad at all, just the EM + TH combination hits the laser significant. Laser outscores all others on unhardenered shields and using EM+TH+KI hardeners (which most shield tanks do).
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.03.26 16:43:00 -
[23]
Quote:
So you see Laser damage on shields even with hardeners isn't so bad at all, just the EM + TH combination hits the laser significant. Laser outscores all others on unhardenered shields and using EM+TH+KI hardeners (which most shield tanks do).
Nice run down on the stats.
What happens when you get to armor though? Seems like Amarr are at a disadvantage there. With armor tanking becoming much more viable will that become worse to a laser user than any other race?
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Lurk
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Posted - 2004.03.26 16:53:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lurk on 26/03/2004 16:54:23
Quote:
Quote:
So you see Laser damage on shields even with hardeners isn't so bad at all, just the EM + TH combination hits the laser significant. Laser outscores all others on unhardenered shields and using EM+TH+KI hardeners (which most shield tanks do).
Nice run down on the stats.
What happens when you get to armor though? Seems like Amarr are at a disadvantage there. With armor tanking becoming much more viable will that become worse to a laser user than any other race?
I know that lasers do suck in armor, however damage is getting better compared to the other weapons IF the opponent is using armor hardeners as he will most likely tend to harden kinetic and explosive.
My rundown was only to negate the argument that everyone and their dog using hardeners renders lasers useless.
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Cherok
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Posted - 2004.03.26 18:06:00 -
[25]
You see...people love this argument...but your forgetting one crucial fact.
At say 5-8 volleys of shots, the amarr ship will be = to other tier 2 ships of its class IN DAMAGE. However, the Amarr ship WILL NOT HAVE CAP TO FIGHT OR DEFEND ITSELF.
Whats so hard about this to understand? Of course the damage output from lasers is almost equal to that of others...but you don't have cap to run them. So whats the point?
Its as if CCP were to make the powergrid requirements of 425's 5000 mw. Now all Megathron users would come here and complain about how they can only fit 2 of them on their ship. Then everyone will come here and say dude, look, your guns does just as much damage as ours so shut up.
I just don't get it...The APOC simply doesn't have the CAP to run enough guns to make it even close to other tier 2 battleships in terms of dealing damage over time. So lasers need to use less cap. Yeah...they changed the cap usage on crystals. Great...so in order for me to effectively engage the enemy, I HAVE to be at 30-35km from the enemy to sustain my cap. You can't put MWD on so you can close the distance if you have to, because then again, your nerfing your cap so you can't run lasers.
They either need to bring the cap usage down on lasers or up the damage so Amarr ships can = other ships in sustained damage. Yeah, 1 tach will do a lot more damage than a 425 hybrid, but we won't be able to use as many guns. Personally I think for balance sake, the cap usage could come down considerably.
I think you get 5% cap reduction to large lasers with Amarr BS bonuses...perhaps it should go to 10%? This would fix the problem IMO.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.03.26 18:33:00 -
[26]
Those people that only fit tachyons without reading and comparing the megabeams, hell even without experimenting, well the more ignorant. I have to agree, as paddyman already said you can fit more megas, doing more damage over time albeit possibly slightly less per individual laser.
I would hate to see megas have a range bonus, that would really just throw tachs to the garbage.
I do think that the high end lasers in particular use far too much cap. The balancing moved from too little to to much.
I agree they should have the cap use lowered somewhat. 
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Paddyman
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Posted - 2004.03.26 18:58:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Paddyman on 26/03/2004 19:12:53
For tachyon's incresed range/fall-off is necessary and so is a reduction in cap to make the gun usefull again, but although some oppose i do feel an increase in damage is needed as well, and i doubt many who have tried using tach's for pvp would dis-agree.
Reason is that the apoc does not have any dmg modification bonus's for its weapons but its competitors do. Compare the tachyon to a 425 rail on a megatron. With its bonus's even though the tachyon is ment to be the super gun in eve the lower classed 425 rail gun on megatron outdamge's it, they use alot less cap for this and to top it off they are easier to fit so you can fit 7 425 rails for far far less fitting then even 6 tach's. How is an apoc supposed to compete with that.
This is why an increase in damage on tachyons would be fair especially considering the capacitor usage on them.
Also on a general note laser's should not have such high cpu fitting req, Amarr ships have the lowest cpu of any ship yet have high cpu gun's. This should be looked at, its not right.
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snotty
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Posted - 2004.03.26 20:06:00 -
[28]
and dont forget the 435 has a base 48k range and 20k(?) falloff so you even get a range bonus using 425's.
So yes give the tachs some love and make it worth it to fit such a power hog
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.26 21:28:00 -
[29]
I'm sure someone with more smarts than I will be able to answer this:
If you give a damage bonus to Apocs/Arma's rather than a cap usage reduction, would it affect DoT in a typical setup?
i.e, you may cause a lot of damage quickly but not for more than 9-10 volleys.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
snotty
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Posted - 2004.03.26 22:40:00 -
[30]
prolly not, you wont be able to sustain all 8 hardpoints without the cap bonuses. an other way of looking at it, the bonuses makes it possible to use more cap intensive christals and thus converting cap into dot or range. So i guess that it dont make a difference.
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