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Rollotamasi	Posted - 2008.01.27 14:27:00 - [31] First things first. Great idea Lithia. I wish the first PvP corp I joined did something like this. Secondly. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the people telling you how worthless t1 fitted cruisers are are probably vets. I say this because they seem to be a bit disillusioned about the effectiveness a t1 cruiser can have because they have been flying around in their totally t2 fit uber ships for so long. To help back up my point I suggest everyone that thinks Lithia's idea is bad watch this. http://eve-search.com/thread/592524/page/1 Then come back and tell me a t1 fitted cruiser is a worthless idea.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.27 14:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Wrong. There are two nice alternatives: 1) T1 frigates. They're still not all that helpful, but at least they're far cheaper. 2) T1 cruisers with good-named fittings. This is FAR better, there is absolutely no reason to refuse to fit at least mid-range named equipment. It's still dirt cheap, making the ship both more effective period AND more cost-effective. I literally just showed you how no t1 frigate, even tech 2 fit, can come close do doing what a t1 fit cruiser can do. Why is best named going to be any different? Really, show me a more effective fit. Get me a frigate with more DPS, ewar, and EHP. And do it cheaper than a frigate! Quote: Ok, fundamental problem here: why is a corporation of newbies who can't even fly properly fitted cruisers trying to claim space? A T1 cruiser with a mix of T2 and good-named equipment is hardly a major investment, in ISK or in skillpoints. Nobody's saying you have to have full T2 fittings with max skills before you try getting into PvP. But that doesn't excuse going all the way down to basic T1. 1. They do not have to be holding space in order to want to defend themselves 2. They do not have to be entirely made up of newbies in order to gain value from cheap cruiser fittings for their low sp/cash pilots to use. Quote: Then fit those T1 cruisers properly. Second-best named launchers, etc. Cost goes up slightly, but effectiveness goes up far more. The only reason I said T1 frigates is because the focus here is on getting the cost as low as possible... if you're too cheap to fit your cruisers properly, you might as well drop down to T1 frigates and save even more money. No, cost goes up immensly. Named launchers you have to haul in large quantities, because you cant produce named launchers. Second best named launchers are so much more expensive than tech 1 that the cost of your ship is going to tripple on them alone. These ships are nearly free. As in, the total costs of ship and mod is going to be about under 100k isk after insurance. Quote: If the gang is already complete without the OTAL ships, why bother bringing ships that you expect to die without contributing? Just drop all the way to T1 frigates and let the newbies watch the fight without risking even a T1 cruiser. Because Gang of ships + nothing < gang of ships + tech 1 fitted caracal < Gang of ships + 10 tech 1 fitted caracals.
cytomatrix Caldari Cosmic Ev0lution	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Rollotamasi First things first. Great idea Lithia. I wish the first PvP corp I joined did something like this. Secondly. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the people telling you how worthless t1 fitted cruisers are are probably vets. I say this because they seem to be a bit disillusioned about the effectiveness a t1 cruiser can have because they have been flying around in their totally t2 fit uber ships for so long. To help back up my point I suggest everyone that thinks Lithia's idea is bad watch this. http://eve-search.com/thread/592524/page/1 Then come back and tell me a t1 fitted cruiser is a worthless idea. Are you blind? That ship is tech2 fitted. Tech2 drones, tech2 eanm and tech2 small armor rep. I say it again. T1 fitted cruisers are rubbish(meta 0 modules). Watch the damn video properly before opening your mouth like this. ______________________________________________________________
Rollotamasi	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:53:00 - [34] Originally by: cytomatrix Originally by: Rollotamasi First things first. Great idea Lithia. I wish the first PvP corp I joined did something like this. Secondly. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the people telling you how worthless t1 fitted cruisers are are probably vets. I say this because they seem to be a bit disillusioned about the effectiveness a t1 cruiser can have because they have been flying around in their totally t2 fit uber ships for so long. To help back up my point I suggest everyone that thinks Lithia's idea is bad watch this. http://eve-search.com/thread/592524/page/1 Then come back and tell me a t1 fitted cruiser is a worthless idea. Are you blind? That ship is tech2 fitted. Tech2 drones, tech2 eanm and tech2 small armor rep. I say it again. T1 fitted cruisers are rubbish(meta 0 modules). Watch the damn video properly before opening your mouth like this. I will give you that they are tech 2 drones. However the video does not show tech II EANMS and the guns are tech 1. A totally t1 fitted vexor is a NASTY SHIP. More then capable of adding something to a gang. I am sorry that hurts your 50mil SP tech 2 fitted I AM UBER principles but not all of us have the SP's or isk to roll like that. I swear, EVE players are the most elitist *******s I have ever encountered in a MMO before. You like a guy that goes to a little league game and screams at all the kids for not "Playing right". You just can't deal with the fact that some people can play the game and have fun without your millions of SP's and fancy T2 mods. Are these people going to go take on BoB and win? Probably not. Are they having fun with what they have? Yep. Just because you can't have fun in a t1 fitted cruiser doesn't mean someone else can't. Get over yourself.
Lithia Tsanov	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:13:00 - [35] There seems to be some confusion over the use of Meta fitted modules on OTAL ships. I believe that this was covered in my main post, but I'll reiterate. 1: Meta 1/2 items are sometimes substituted if they are "free" and sitting in the corp loot/donations hangar. Unfortunately, rat fittings are regional. My last stint in Paragon Soul had sansha, so Amarr OTALs got most of the good fittings. 2: The "pilot" is encouraged to put on better fittings.... If he has them, if he can afford them, or if they are available to him on the market. If the pilot sees that his uber fittings are 14 jumps away, he can still undock and be useful. How useful? 33% of his T2 counterpart useful. Better fittings are the responsibility of the PILOT. I'm the industrialist that's trying to get better "free" ships out the door than Tristan's. I produce the completely stock no-frills chasis, and the pilot can rig/rice it out as he/she sees fit. Frigs can be OTAL'd as well, but they seem to limit the fun a bit. On the "Other OTAL ships".... I'm working on it. Feel free to start you own threads and link them here. I only do these threads when I'm carebear'ing, so you're gonna have to be patient till I get to your favorite ship. OTAL has forced me to re-think a lot of the ships that I commonly fly. One of the threads that surprised me a lot was the Caracal thread. I had never thought of ECM/speed tanking a Caracal. The Caracal config there is now versitile and doubles as an Ewar, rather than being a long range shooter/short range tackler, with s sub-par tank. I'll try to clean up the original posts a bit. LT What is an OTAL?
Josh Causto Gallente Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:20:00 - [36] Originally by: AnKahn The biggest problem with EvE right now is all the tech 2 ships running around NOT engaging for fear of uninsured losses. If I could get Raven hulls for cost I would fly them anywhere, any time. Not, hold on let me go get my Condor and I'll be able to put a point on! Let's face it, we all know when we are on a suicide op. At least we might be able to have fun doing one in more serious ships. Oh god forbid there is risk in pvp. Get over it or go play wow or guildwars or something. Originally by: Speed Devil Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Everytime you fit anything other than a laser on our ships, babies die. and when ya fit lasers on your ships nothing dies
cytomatrix Caldari Cosmic Ev0lution	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:41:00 - [37] Edited by: cytomatrix on 27/01/2008 16:41:57 Originally by: Rollotamasi Originally by: cytomatrix Are you blind? That ship is tech2 fitted. Tech2 drones, tech2 eanm and tech2 small armor rep. I say it again. T1 fitted cruisers are rubbish(meta 0 modules). Watch the damn video properly before opening your mouth like this. I will give you that they are tech 2 drones. However the video does not show tech II EANMS and the guns are tech 1. A totally t1 fitted vexor is a NASTY SHIP. More then capable of adding something to a gang. I am sorry that hurts your 50mil SP tech 2 fitted I AM UBER principles but not all of us have the SP's or isk to roll like that. I swear, EVE players are the most elitist *****s I have ever encountered in a MMO before. You like a guy that goes to a little league game and screams at all the kids for not "Playing right". You just can't deal with the fact that some people can play the game and have fun without your millions of SP's and fancy T2 mods. Are these people going to go take on BoB and win? Probably not. Are they having fun with what they have? Yep. Just because you can't have fun in a t1 fitted cruiser doesn't mean someone else can't. Get over yourself. http://eve-search.com/thread/592524/page/1#11 Check that post, he is using tech2 eanms and named** light blasters. Limited Ions to be precise. I dont think i am uber and i dont have 50mil sp. I have nothing against people flying tech1 fitted ships. At least use named modules. Most of the named modules are not that expensive. If you can afford a cruiser with insurance, you can afford to fit it properly. I am just trying help here. If you wanna fly tech1 fitted cruiser junk and get owned by a tech2 fitted tech1 frigate or cruiser with named mods, be my guest. But dont make new players believe that they can killed battlecruisers and battleships in a tech1(no named mods) fitted cruisers. And those victims in that videos were not that skilled either. Most of them were using tech1 stuffs like hammerhead Is. I have solo-ed a caracal in a manticore. It doesnt mean manticore is a great solo ship. Just my two cents. ______________________________________________________________
Rollotamasi	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:06:00 - [38] Originally by: cytomatrix Edited by: cytomatrix on 27/01/2008 16:41:57 Originally by: Rollotamasi Originally by: cytomatrix Are you blind? That ship is tech2 fitted. Tech2 drones, tech2 eanm and tech2 small armor rep. I say it again. T1 fitted cruisers are rubbish(meta 0 modules). Watch the damn video properly before opening your mouth like this. I will give you that they are tech 2 drones. However the video does not show tech II EANMS and the guns are tech 1. A totally t1 fitted vexor is a NASTY SHIP. More then capable of adding something to a gang. I am sorry that hurts your 50mil SP tech 2 fitted I AM UBER principles but not all of us have the SP's or isk to roll like that. I swear, EVE players are the most elitist *******s I have ever encountered in a MMO before. You like a guy that goes to a little league game and screams at all the kids for not "Playing right". You just can't deal with the fact that some people can play the game and have fun without your millions of SP's and fancy T2 mods. Are these people going to go take on BoB and win? Probably not. Are they having fun with what they have? Yep. Just because you can't have fun in a t1 fitted cruiser doesn't mean someone else can't. Get over yourself. http://eve-search.com/thread/592524/page/1#11 But dont make new players believe that they can killed battlecruisers and battleships in a tech1(no named mods) fitted cruisers. And those victims in that videos were not that skilled either. Most of them were using tech1 stuffs like hammerhead Is. My PvP training corp has dropped BS's in 7 t1 fitted non named frigates so I have to assume that 7 t1 fitted cruisers could do the same and do it a lot faster. Were they the most skilled BS pilots or the best fitted? Probably not but that not really the point. The point is that if you spend your entire eve career not engaging anyone that may be more skilled or better fitted then yourself then your going to spend all your time sitting in a station with your thumb up your arse.
Lithia Tsanov	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:11:00 - [39] We still seem to be discussing T2 and named fittings. Perhaps I missed the crux of your argument. Can you please restate your argument in a single, well formed sentence? Lemme try.... A T2 fitted frig is often more powerful than a Meta 0 fitted cruiser. Is that it? Cause if that's the point, I totally concede. The problems that I face with providing T2 fitted frigs to my corp mates are as follows. 1: I'd have to invent "all" of the BPs, and have limited slots on my AML, limited specialized invention skills. 2: In many instances, they cost more. I would not be able to provide "free" ships without a heavy subsidy. This is not something I am willing to entertain. 3: I have no guarantee that a pilot would be able to use every T2 fitting. 4: Since the pilot will likely change out a number of components on a OTAL ship, the point is mute. An OTAL can be fully T2 fitted in under 60 seconds by the pilot. 5: Meta lvl >0 items are difficult to get (even when cheap) in sufficient quantities to support the OTAL program. I'm building free PvP ships by taking advantage of the insurance payout. You want non-free PvP ships. There's a facility for that called "the market" that the pilot is free and encouraged to use. OTAL is not a replacement for the market, it is a courtesy extended by the corp for members to take advantage of when/if they choose. Thank you, LT What is an OTAL?
cytomatrix Caldari Cosmic Ev0lution	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Rollotamasi My PvP training corp has dropped BS's in 7 t1 fitted non named frigates so I have to assume that 7 t1 fitted cruisers could do the same and do it a lot faster. Were they the most skilled BS pilots or the best fitted? Probably not but that not really the point. The point is that if you spend your entire eve career not engaging anyone that may be more skilled or better fitted then yourself then your going to spend all your time sitting in a station with your thumb up your arse. Were those battleships mining or afk? If not, I would love to see the killmail. My point is, saying cruisers fitted with tech 1 non-named modules would perform like a ship in that video you linked is stupid. I am not asking anyone to stay inside the station until they have all skills lvl5. I have fun with minmatar cruiser even tho medium projectile turret skill lvl is 1. I dont really expect you to understand, not after reading your posts with lots of personal attacks. And Lithia Tsanov, I personally think its a great idea. Giving/selling fully fitted tech1 cruiser to corp member even though its complete rubbish for pvp(except some ship setups). Its great to have some modules on the ship when you travel around to buy modules for the new ship. ______________________________________________________________
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Rollotamasi My PvP training corp has dropped BS's in 7 t1 fitted non named frigates so I have to assume that 7 t1 fitted cruisers could do the same and do it a lot faster. This isn't necessarily true, because things don't scale that way in Eve. The cruisers would have been slower and had a bigger sig radius, and thus would be far easier for the battleship guns to track. Remember, in Eve, bigger is not always better. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Lithia Tsanov A T2 fitted frig is often more powerful than a Meta 0 fitted cruiser. I think that part of the argument is also that there are tactical situations where a frigate (even T1, M0) is better than a similarly fit cruiser. Quote: 5: Meta lvl >0 items are difficult to get (even when cheap) in sufficient quantities to support the OTAL program. I know that you addressed this earlier, but you can reasonably expect to see Meta > 0 items dropping from missions and/or ratting. Those items should definitely be used for this project. Quote: I'm building free PvP ships by taking advantage of the insurance payout. You want non-free PvP ships. There's a facility for that called "the market" that the pilot is free and encouraged to use. OTAL is not a replacement for the market, it is a courtesy extended by the corp for members to take advantage of when/if they choose. It's a great idea, to be honest. However, I encourage you to do this, but I also encourage you to encourage your pilots to dress for success when fitting and flying their ships. Also, don't forget to teach your pilots to be weapons themselves. A good PVP'er is dangerous in just about any ship they're in. A good FC can lead a gang of total noobs to complete world domination. For example, 3 Vagabonds vs 10 OTAL caracals with a competent FC will either mean a dead Vaga or two, or Vagas running away with their tails between their legs. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Rollotamasi	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Rollotamasi My PvP training corp has dropped BS's in 7 t1 fitted non named frigates so I have to assume that 7 t1 fitted cruisers could do the same and do it a lot faster. This isn't necessarily true, because things don't scale that way in Eve. The cruisers would have been slower and had a bigger sig radius, and thus would be far easier for the battleship guns to track. Remember, in Eve, bigger is not always better. -Liang Ok, you are probably correct. The point I was trying to make though was that teams of "crappy" fitted ships aren't necessarily "rubbish". Working together they can be quite effective and the fact that if they get blown up makes them great training tools for new players. Players get to have fun and get PvP experience while not breaking the bank.
Rollotamasi	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:38:00 - [44] Also, don't forget to teach your pilots to be weapons themselves. A good PVP'er is dangerous in just about any ship they're in. A good FC can lead a gang of total noobs to complete world domination. For example, 3 Vagabonds vs 10 OTAL caracals with a competent FC will either mean a dead Vaga or two, or Vagas running away with their tails between their legs. -Liang That was really the point I was trying to make.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Goumindong ...No, cost goes up immensly. Named launchers you have to haul in large quantities, because you cant produce named launchers. Second best named launchers are so much more expensive than tech 1 that the cost of your ship is going to tripple on them alone. These ships are nearly free. As in, the total costs of ship and mod is going to be about under 100k isk after insurance... Bingo. You cannot produce T1 meta modules, thus fitting them on a setup that is going to be built entirely on an outpost/POS/etc. needs to be T1 fitted(T2 with invention?), or you need to import said named modules in bulk. As a corp giving T1 fitted T1 cruisers to newer members is a good thing, it encourages participation and builds teamwork. As for effectiveness, a T1 fitted ewar cruiser can do a lot to an opposing gang(my favorite is the TD arbitrator, because it was the ship that caused me to train amarr cruiser 5). With reasonable skill, a T1 fitted missile spammer can add to your gang's dps, it can destroy incoming tacklers that have slowed to web/scramble, they are more dps that are on the primary( unless you're going to say that another ~200 dps is nothing?), be that EW, or a high dps ship, and at little cost to the pilot, if he were to lose it! Many newer players won't pvp because of the risk involved, and the concept of cheap and readymade ships solves this nicely. Not every corp/alliance is able to give ~5m sp characters zealot hulls for free, afterall. As for the T1 frigate vs cruiser argument, a tackler frigate or three is great in a gang, but do you need 10? 20? At some point it just is more useful to have someone come and give a little more dps/tank or EW.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:00:00 - [46] Originally by: Selia Rain As for the T1 frigate vs cruiser argument, a tackler frigate or three is great in a gang, but do you need 10? 20? At some point it just is more useful to have someone come and give a little more dps/tank or EW. Well, let's look at that (bear in mind that I do like the OTAL idea): I get roughly 130 DPS out of a T1 Meta 0 Stabber. I get roughly 60 DPS out of a T1 Meta 0 Rifter. They both go roughly the same speed (3500 m/sec), but the rifter has a lot higher survivability due to agility, sig radius, and capacitor. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Selia Rain	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:04:00 - [47] Indeed, but the stabber isn't what I was pointing out. Imagine your gang has 5 rifters already, would you want another pilot in say, a merlin/kestrel(both argueably inferior tacklers tot he rifter)? Or would you rather he bring a blackbird instead? Which ship adds more to the gang at that point?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:48:00 - [48] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/01/2008 20:48:46 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Selia Rain As for the T1 frigate vs cruiser argument, a tackler frigate or three is great in a gang, but do you need 10? 20? At some point it just is more useful to have someone come and give a little more dps/tank or EW. Well, let's look at that (bear in mind that I do like the OTAL idea): I get roughly 130 DPS out of a T1 Meta 0 Stabber. I get roughly 60 DPS out of a T1 Meta 0 Rifter. They both go roughly the same speed (3500 m/sec), but the rifter has a lot higher survivability due to agility, sig radius, and capacitor. -Liang ha ha, no. The stabber has a lot higher survivability due to hit points. The stabber also has more dps than listed due to twice the falloff.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Goumindong ha ha, no. The stabber has a lot higher survivability due to hit points. While it's true that the Stabber has more hitpoints, it also has four times the sig radius (and quite alot lower orbit speed). Quote: The stabber also has more dps than listed due to twice the falloff. Well, it will have more DPS than the rifter - not more than "listed". It also has lower tracking, though. If it's imperative to stay outside of web range, though, neither one will be really competent. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Sebroth Coordination Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:07:00 - [50] This is not meant as a flame and I see nothing wrong with posting pure t1 setups but imoà OTAL ships are only good for a few things: * Give a good picture of what t1 mods that the corp need to build for emergency use. Oh **, I donÆt have a t2/named mwd in my hangar and my friends is already waiting for me outside the station * Emergency ships Oh **, I just joined and I have no ship and mods around these parts of eve yet * noob friendly corp tournament. A corp that canÆt help newer players in need of for namned/t2 mods really should start thinking about its recruitment policy. The noobs should start looking for a new corp. (only exceptions would be eve uni and corps like that) If I burn 200-500m or even more in my own ship w/o blinking but then give the poor new player that are about to join my gang a OTAL ship I have to be stupid and/or extremely greedy. A small investment in his ship, 10-20m, might be what saves my ass in the end and even if it donÆt I only lost less then the cost for the low slots on a cheaper t2 fitted ship. He will also most likely get more fun and experience out of the ship. ----- Never knock on Death's door; ring the doorbell and run (he hates that)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren 4 times the sig Irrelevent, the hit points are much more valuable.
Ashina Sito Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Lithia Tsanov Good day, Stuff I just wanted to say thanks for doing this. It provides a good baseline for new players when getting into PvP. I think the people that don't get what your trying to do simply can't see past their high SP/ISK wants. A pilot in a ship with the gang is better then a pilot without a ship sitting at a station. It's all good stuff to start with. I am glad to see the list of OTAL ships in htis post and am looking forward to more of them. Keep up the good work, Ashina Sito
Lithia Tsanov	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:18:00 - [53] Hi there, OTAL is a concept for "free" pre-fit PvP ships that insurance pays for. It can be applied to numerous frigs, destroyers, and "possibly" some tier 1 battle cruisers (I'm trying to see if it can be done for the Brutix Currently). I am totally incapable of making OTAL battleships due to the mineral/material costs of the Meta 0 modules. I don't wanna say "it can't be done" without a heavy subsidy.... but I'm reasonable certain it can't. If someone here can figure out how to OTAL a battleship (and get it to within 5% of the cost of the mins), then I bow to them. You're a greater industrialist than I. I'd also be terrified of their corp, since they're all flying free kamakazi battleships. LT What is an OTAL?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:30:00 - [54] Originally by: Lithia Tsanov I'd also be terrified of their corp, since they're all flying free kamakazi battleships. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:31:00 - [55] Originally by: Goumindong Irrelevent, the hit points are much more valuable. Well, you're right for damage dealing - but I don't think so for actual tackling (especially the capacitor part). -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Consider yourself warned. ^_^
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:33:00 - [56] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Goumindong Irrelevent, the hit points are much more valuable. Well, you're right for damage dealing - but I don't think so for actual tackling (especially the capacitor part). -Liang I dont think they are hurting for tackling though.
SirMoric	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:35:00 - [57] Nice thread. Sounds like a good idea and reminder to newer pilots, who hasn't their skills up yet, or older players who wants to try something new..... for a change. Unfortunately the thread seems to be filled with lot of older more "skilled" players who seem afraid they'll loose their precious T2-ships to newbies or only gain useless T1 stuff from their kills Let the new players learn the game PvP-wise. Ships new players don't have to grind missions for are a great idea, at least until they, the new players, decide it's their turn to jump on the T2 bandwagon. And T2-fellows, wouldn't you make a net-loss if you only were up against T1-ships with T1 equipment? rgds
Sebroth Coordination Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.27 21:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Lithia Tsanov If someone here can figure out how to OTAL a battleship (and get it to within 5% of the cost of the mins) drone regions... the mineral market is so great that you can: 1) buy minerals 2) build a BS 3) insure it 4) blow it up 5) profit ----- Never knock on Death's door; ring the doorbell and run (he hates that)
cytomatrix Caldari Cosmic Ev0lution	Posted - 2008.01.27 22:20:00 - [59] Originally by: Lithia Tsanov Hi there, OTAL is a concept for "free" pre-fit PvP ships that insurance pays for. It can be applied to numerous frigs, destroyers, and "possibly" some tier 1 battle cruisers (I'm trying to see if it can be done for the Brutix Currently). I am totally incapable of making OTAL battleships due to the mineral/material costs of the Meta 0 modules. I don't wanna say "it can't be done" without a heavy subsidy.... but I'm reasonable certain it can't. If someone here can figure out how to OTAL a battleship (and get it to within 5% of the cost of the mins), then I bow to them. You're a greater industrialist than I. I'd also be terrified of their corp, since they're all flying free kamakazi battleships. LT I think i have met a couple of them. They all flew ravens. And they had shield boosters, armor reps and hull repairers all tech1. Heavy Missile Launcher Is and Assault Missile Launcher Is with Kinetic damage missiles. But if you find a corp full of such people, please let me know. Please dont post their names here, I dont like to share my targets. Seriously, Would you really fly tech1 fitted battleships if you got the modules for free? ______________________________________________________________
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.01.27 22:21:00 - [60] The only issue I have with the OTAL rules is the "Cap must last 2 minutes"... The OTAL idea as a whole I thoroughly approve of. Back when IAC were trying desperately to fend off Curse Coalition, back in the days when they held only two systems properly, I supported fleets by flying an Incursus tackler. I had no BS skills and cruisers stretched my wallet too much (my ratting ship was a Thorax). Every time I flew an Incursus in a fleet I returned home via the clone vats. When some of the hierarchy started to do something similar to the OTAL program, supplying T1 fitted Blackbirds and Celestis to pilots who needed them, I learned a great deal more. Everytime I took out an Incursus I'd run into BS with precision cruise or T2 drones, I had no time to learn from what happened, I'd see the opposing fleet, see an explosion and then the inside of whatever station my clone was at (in the early days that meant a week of so before I could make the run down to 0.0 again just after DT). The T1 fitted Blackbird was much more effective, both from the POV of the FC and for me. The buffer gave me more time to learn, the EWar allowed me to get onto killmails and boosted my morale and the jams I got in saved our ships and helped to win fights. I brought the first Blackbird back from three fleet battles, lost it to huge numbers of -A- T2 fitted sniper BS when we helped out Axiom. T1 fitted cruisers helped me learn how to get my pod out, they helped me learn the most important lessons in PvP. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.

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