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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.11 21:28:00 -
[1]
WARNING LONG POST!!
Ok, after reading numerous threads about all the problems with factory slots and office space, as well as experiencing the shortage in-game I have come up with a solution that I think would actually work pretty well while actually creating a commodity in real-estate.
Anyway here's an idea that popped in my head while reading this thread.
If you look at a RL example like a mall, there are certain things that show up, for instance the sizes of the different stores located there vary from a small kiosk(cell-phone kiosks) to a medium sized store (most other stores) all the way up to one of those huge big-box stores (i.e. Walmart). What I'm basically trying to get at is that not all stores have the same amount of space because not all companies need the same amount of space.
I believe that this kind of concept would work in EVE as well, and here's how (many of these ideas have come from other forum posters, I'm not trying to claim responsibility for these ideas, just for combining them into a workable model):
1. Office space and factory/research slots are not linked in any way currently, I believe this should be changed because generally the place where most corporations open an office is a place where they will also rent factories.
2. There are separate bills issued when a corp rents out offices and factory slots and research slots. This seems to be overcomplicated and unnecessary.
3. The location of office space has no market value in the current system. Besides the fact that a station may or may not have certain services available or to a far lesser extent proximity to a starter system, there is nothing to increase or decrease the market value of office/factory/research slots in EVE.
Okay, now that IÆve pointed out why I think the current system doesnÆt work, here is my suggestion of how I think it would work:
1. Office/Factory/Research slots should all be integrated into one package with different service packages available outlined as follows:
- Office/Hangar space only
- Small business: office/hangar space + either 3 factory slots or 2 factory slots/1 research slot (where valid)
- Medium business: office/hangar space + 6 factory slots or 4 factory slots/2 research slots (where valid)
- Mega-Corp: office/hangar space + 10-14 factory slots or 6-8 factory slots/2-4 research slots (where valid)
- Research only: office/hangar space + 6 research slots for a corp that wants to specialize in research.
2. Combine all of these separate bills into one dynamic one as follows:
- have set base prices for all slot types : hangar/factory/research
- apply a cost modifier based on the location of the station and maybe the average monthly traffic in that system. This would lead to the high-traffic areas having the most expensive rent and the low-traffic areas having either base rent or possibly even lower.
- combine this into a monthly rental fee so the corp or individual is paying 1 price to get all of their services.
I believe this would both eliminate the factory-slot and office space problem as well as create a market for corporations that want to deal in real-estate and station building as their main focus.
These are all ideas at this point and by no means perfect, but I believe this could work. If you have any comments/suggestions add them to this post, we need this fixed right so we donÆt have to do it again.
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Vidamus
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Posted - 2003.06.11 22:57:00 -
[2]
--- quote ---
3. The location of office space has no market value in the current system. Besides the fact that a station may or may not have certain services available or to a far lesser extent proximity to a starter system, there is nothing to increase or decrease the market value of office/factory/research slots in EVE.
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I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. Location plays a big part in the desireability and therefore value (to the players, NPC owners OTOH are dumb) of rental slots at any given station. It may be a little hard to see this at the moment because due to the current crisis people will buy almost anything just to get a slot. As I have said in many other posts if the rent actaully reflected the value of a slot all this would go away.
Although you and I are on a similar track I still believe my suggestion is a more flexible solution. You can read about it here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=6396
I don't like the idea of fixed "packages" of slots. Poeple should be able to rent as much or as little as they need. (provided its vacant)
Pricing should be adjusted according to levels of vacancy in the station, system, constellation and region, not passing traffic.
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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.12 00:47:00 -
[3]
Ok, I re-read your previous thread (actually your floorspace point was one of the things that gave me the idea i had initially), and while it may be more flexible, it would require the system in place now to be totally redesigned. Also I think it would require CEO's to do too much micromanagement to keep things organized.
Heh, I think we have our wires crossed here. What you call levels of vacancy I call traffic. Basically by traffic I meant things like, the average number of pilots in space, jumps per hour over a month, using things like these to essentially calculate your level of vacancy. Then adding this modifier to the base price of the different slot types.
What I had failed to mention in my initial post (and something that uses your floorspace idea) is that all stations should have a set pool of factory and research slots to pull from.
The reason I decided to go with fixed packages is mainly because it fits with current game mechanics and also because it would work for 90% of the people out there.
Frex: you're a small, independent manufacturer who's just starting out, the small business package gives you 3 FS (factory slots) or 2 FS and 1 RS (research slots) depending on availability. This is enough to get you started producing wares by yourself from the ore you mine, over time you get bigger and you get the mass production skill trained to max level, you decide you need more factories to keep up with so you upgrade to the medium-sized package, gaining any additional slots this package grants as long as the pool has enough slots remaining. For an individual to go to any higher package than that would require them to possess the corporation management series of skills.
This way they could control the system without imposing a limit on how many slots a person or corporation can rent, as the cost of renting up whole stations without actually manufacturing something there will be prohibitive in and of itself. Also factory griefing would be impossible under this type of model.
As I side note perhaps making the factory slots multiples of the max number of factories/reasearch slots 1 character can control would be a good idea. i.e. Small business package gives you 5 factories and 1 research slot or just 5 factories if no research slots exist. That way players can get as many slots as they can possibly use as an individual, and corps can get enough slots to support thier size of corp.
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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.12 16:20:00 -
[4]
Does no one have ANY comments/suggestions/ideas about what I've proposed.
Even a simple yay or nay that you like or dislike the idea would be good.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.06.12 16:44:00 -
[5]
I heard that they have a solution to the slot shortage that they are going to implent. They are going to make renting slot acording to your skill level. And the ones that currently have lots of labs or factories or offices won't be able rerent then when their lease is up. So now people won't be able to buy 200 slots then sell them to other at high prices.
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Kagutsuchi
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Posted - 2003.06.12 20:11:00 -
[6]
Minsc,
I think your dead on the ball here, I just have reservationbs about whether CCP can be arsed, OR is able to implement this into the game, on top of all the other features that are LONG overdue... I hope this idea is at least considered by the designers, it shows thought and careful consideration, given various scenarios. Good work fella
A freind by your side is like an army at your back. |
Tian Rage
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Posted - 2003.06.13 04:57:00 -
[7]
Minsc ... your Idea is a good one ... another way to implement it is instead of having set pakages that you can buy you can have it so it is custom ... that way you could have just the amount and type of slots you want ... To tell what size package people get would then depend on the number of slots they try to get ... so you could say have:
<3 slots be a tiny package
>3 < 7 slots be a small package
and so on ... also then you just have to have the price be based on the base price for the package size using a modifier for extra slots ... another way to save on slots is for corps to automatically have 2 factories and research, if available, that counts as part of the office then any purchase of a package would add to what they have and obviously the rent ... this would free up some space for low level players due to the fact that the corps would have extra space to begin with and wouldnt need to buy up as much extra ... also a corp could be limited in the number of slots they have based on how many members, say 1 slot per member plus the average number os slots all of the members could use ... Now to accomedate corps that want to be based on relestate have a corp skill for that ... a relestate corp, could say +5 slots per level of the Factory Managers skill level in relestate ... or relestate corps have relestate managers and its based on the number of skills they have ... bigger corps could then have multiple managers and thus up the number of slots they can rent to the public ... prices should also have a general range that they cannot exceed, for relestate corps that is ... so that the corp cant then ask for say more than tripple the average rate ... just some Ideas I had after reading your thread ... Love your idea tho seems really practicle
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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.13 12:20:00 -
[8]
That is a very good idea Tian. Having a user-customizable number of slots is a very good idea, have the renter pick whatever number of slots and calculate rent based on that.
I think having a real-estate skill though may not be necessary. I was thinking more in terms of market for player-built stations than anything.
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Madismaxis
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Posted - 2003.06.13 12:42:00 -
[9]
this would work very well. but it looks like lots of codeing for ccp to set it up.
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Nehama
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Posted - 2003.06.13 13:00:00 -
[10]
I totaly agree with the main idea. You have a contract that includes the office and the amount of services you demand (factories and laboratories). Its cost should be such that a small corp would be able to have two or three offices in total. This way we can play some strategy too. Now the 'rent office' option simply is a senseless race. And everyone has tons of crap scattered by the galaxy.
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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.13 18:19:00 -
[11]
Yes, this is my thinking as well Nehama.
as far as lots of coding goes I don't believe it would be that much, it uses the system that is already in place and just combines it into one unified system.
Anyone else have any additions/suggestions?
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EaglesFire
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Posted - 2003.06.14 00:23:00 -
[12]
I like the current system just fine. It is like real life, if a corp has a ton of money, and wants to keep as many of the factorys and labs to himself, thereby it will increase his profits, by forcing out the compention. NOW, CCP should have made it possible at the same time for someone, with enough money, to go out and build another factory or lab. If station building or moblie factorys or labs where in the game, this whole slot griefing thing would be a moot point.
"Knowledge is power, and the uninformed SHALL be punished!"
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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.14 14:45:00 -
[13]
How is the current situation like real life. I don't know about you but I don't see companies like Toyota buying up all the factory space all over the place and leaving it vacant and unused.
*Edited - took out the Walmart reference as they don't actually manufacture things themselves AFAIK, they just hire companies in 3rd world contries who use child-labour to do it for them.*
Edited by: Minsc on 14/06/2003 19:06:36
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Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.16 15:36:00 -
[14]
Holy Crap 12 responses out of 367 views...does no one else have anything to add??
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The Colonel
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Posted - 2003.06.17 07:45:00 -
[15]
Sounds over complicated to me. The current system wouldve been fine if CCP had implemented limiters such as skill level restrictions and realistic monthly billing, that actually worked.
Forum |
anthonieak
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Posted - 2003.06.17 10:39:00 -
[16]
What do I have too read a book, or can you just say in a few words
Edited by: anthonieak on 17/06/2003 10:40:04
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Missing Lola Gold Since 6-4-2004
Miner Addicted |
Minsc
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Posted - 2003.06.17 17:51:00 -
[17]
The Colonel, I agree that the current system would work fine for solo players renting factory slots but it is just not a good system when it comes to corporations.
anthonieak I know it is a long post, that's why I put the warning at the top. I tried to shorten it up a bit but it still ended up being a long post.
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Vultan
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Posted - 2003.06.17 21:52:00 -
[18]
If they would get the billing working that would be a huge start to fixing factories and such. I read Vidamus's post as well and the 3 of us seem to be on to the same idea. (see my post:http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=7779) The idea in this post of changing, I'm guessing the Mass Production skill, to the combined Office/Factory/Research skill is one I don't like off hand. Combining all of these limits the freedom of the market and this sounds very time consuming from a programming point of view. Not that mine is all that better from a programming pov I would suspect.
Minsc, I'm curious what you see in the game mechanics that lead you to the 'fixed packages' idea. I don't see that my self.
In the end I think they won't choose a "good" solution, as it would take to much time to program, so throw out all our ideas. What Kalhan said will be a working solution. Hopefully it will be enough. |
DeathAndTaxxes
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Posted - 2003.06.18 22:20:00 -
[19]
KISS (Keep it Simple _____ )
I think your idea of packages and groups to be to complicated.
However the problem with the current system is simply IT IS NOT BASED ON SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Everything else about Eve is based on a market simulation except the slots (factory/research/office).
CCP could fix this with a 3 part system
Part 1 (within days)
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# of buyable slot = # of usable slots. With out mass production you CAN'T use 2 or more slots at same time. If you can't use it the system should not let you buy it. For people right now that have 100 slots let em keep it till there billing cycle comes around then they lose the slots they can't use.
For corporations it would be based on some formula involving # of members, mass production skill, maybe some corp skill. I don't know this is just an idea to get started.
Part 2 (next major patch)
===============================================
I agree CCP should implement some methods of determening value and fluctuate the price of a slot based on it's value in it's system. The price should be dynamic. Core world factories may have a price of 100,000 ISK per week. Where an outer rim factory may be grabbed for 2,000 ISK per week. Demand would be determined by # of slots used, traffic in system, and other such factors.
Part 3 (whenever possible)
==============================================
While part 1 & 2 fixes the immediate problem, I think part 3 is a more integrated solution. Basicly make slots work like the rest of market. You open factory slots it shows an open slot with price of 20,000 ISK per week. You can buy now or place a market order you could place an order for 10,000 ISK if the price drops that low you get the slot. Same thing with placing sell orders for slots you have. Also you could use the demand icon to see the prices of slots in system, constellation, and region (just like the market works). Then you could decide do I want this slot here for 100,000 ISK when I can purchase 12 jumps away in a 0.0 system but it does only cost 20,000 ISK and there are 2 available.
Basicly the problem is that the entire rest of eve is a free market system and the slot system is some kind of state controlled closed market system. In the real world such systems have the exact same problems. The simulation is just reflecting the realities of such a system.
Sorry this is so long but I think a 3 part system would work best because we would get some immediate relief and work towards a better system.
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Vultan
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Posted - 2003.06.19 00:21:00 -
[20]
Actually slots are working on a supply and demand based system and in a free market. It's just that the Demand is growing but the supply is not. I'm not saying your fix is wrong or won't work, just the basis for it. |
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