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Embrace Death
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:03:00 -
[1]
If any of you have been in alliance sized armies, or large pirate corps, you know that fleet warfare in EVE is mostly a sort of blob warfare where the group with the lesser "number of players in space" blob usually avoids the combat or proceeds with logoff wars. Very rarely do these blobs match up and become an actual battle. Additionally, scouting the owner of the blobs is far too easy.. All you need to do is enter the system and you are given a list in local of who is in the system, including their names, security status, and corp. For the betterment of actual warfare in this game, I think that the galaxy map features "pilots in space/docked", "ships destroyed in last 1/24 hours", and the ability to see everyone in "local" chat be removed or altered so that players may actually "hide" or heaven forbid use "tactics" to outwit eachother. I do not, however, propose that these methods be totally removed. One should in fact be able to enter a system with a special ship or setup to scan and possibly pinpoint people in that system(via scanner modules? who knows what CCP has in mind) I should go on to say this is neither a pro-carebear or pro-miner or pro-pirate proposition.. but I have class in an hour.. maybe later?  |
Zasra
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:07:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
and the ability to see everyone in "local" chat be removed or altered so that players may actually "hide" or heaven forbid use "tactics" to outwit eachother.
.. nope. Too much of a benefit to the pirates. However perhaps a way to hide your local against someone your at war with, for a short time..? Dunno.
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Nepereta
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:13:00 -
[3]
my 2 cents
perhaps we could remove 'pilots in Space' or replace it with 'System Popularity (ie pilots in last 24 hrs or av pilots in the last hour/24 hour)' but keep pod kills/ ship destructs etc.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:26:00 -
[4]
That only depends on who's in the blobs.
If RUS are in the CA blob...
or
If the SA fleet is under COL command...
then there will sure as hell be combat.
Don't remove these features. That would only mean that people travelling would face a VERY BIG risk and people would be mining without taking ANY risk at all.  bad suggestion.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:35:00 -
[5]
I detest blob/fleet wars - it's fine if you're in system and someone is jumping in but I hated it when we had to jump in and you didn't know if you'd even be alive by the time your screen loaded.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:46:00 -
[6]
Quote:
I detest blob/fleet wars - it's fine if you're in system and someone is jumping in but I hated it when we had to jump in and you didn't know if you'd even be alive by the time your screen loaded.
Things have changed alot since back then Joshua...
The 1 minute in cloak gives the fleet jumping in a huge advantage.
Load times ain't that big any longer.
Basicly for the fleet jumping in:
pros:
Cloaking gives a big advantage
cons:
Being scattered while the campers can choose their position
Possibility that the campers use mobile warp disruptors.
But the cons can kinda be avoided by first sending in an alt scout.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Einheriar Ulrich
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Posted - 2004.03.26 17:47:00 -
[7]
Make a fog of war solution, the deeper you go into 0.0 space away from station systems.
Make it so that only systems with stations, have the ability to scan a whole system.
Would ne a nize feature, and woul certainly reduce the mexican stand offs.
So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar.
****Minion Of VOTF****
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Knefru Khamen
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Posted - 2004.03.26 18:20:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Make a fog of war solution, the deeper you go into 0.0 space away from station systems.
Make it so that only systems with stations, have the ability to scan a whole system.
Would ne a nize feature, and woul certainly reduce the mexican stand offs.
Great ideas here. I'd even say that independently-owned stations like Sanshas or Archangels wouldn't share data with empire information networks (so you'd need good NPC pirate faction to have access to their databases).
---
Ad honorem,
Knefru Khamen
Omnia mea mecum porto. |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.03.26 18:25:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Great ideas here. I'd even say that independently-owned stations like Sanshas or Archangels wouldn't share data with empire information networks (so you'd need good NPC pirate faction to have access to their databases).
The "number of pilots in system" would rather come from data collected from the jump-gates, number of pilots that has jumped through...
And all that data would be in the hands of concord...
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Knefru Khamen
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Posted - 2004.03.26 18:57:00 -
[10]
Quote:
The "number of pilots in system" would rather come from data collected from the jump-gates, number of pilots that has jumped through...
And all that data would be in the hands of concord...
Sure, most pilots could be tracked that way. But activating a clone into a station would put a new pilot into a system without using any gates.
---
Ad honorem,
Knefru Khamen
Omnia mea mecum porto. |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:01:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Sure, most pilots could be tracked that way. But activating a clone into a station would put a new pilot into a system without using any gates.
OMG, I thought OC were the only ones using clone-jumping en masse.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Latinum Smith
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:02:00 -
[12]
Simple solution. Have it as a request fee that concord will give out all of the people in local. Also in systems with empire races they can do it too.
Have the prices related to your corp standing. That way pirates can be informed more cheaply in pirate space and do gooders in high sec space.
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Koda
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:39:00 -
[13]
Depending on the mettle of your fleet and that of your opponent, seeing the blob moving toward you has an element of tension that can be exciting.
But if your opponents are log-monkeys then it is very anti-climactic. 
--------------
Share the love in the SNIGG Forums
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Macumba
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:43:00 -
[14]
Warp to target. Either a module or a skill. That would solve 99% of this.
Remove safespots and you've removed the problem. Everybody uses safespots (myself inculded, I might like a fight but I'm not completely stupid), but they're ruining combat. |
Kashre
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:49:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kashre on 26/03/2004 19:51:14
Quote:
Depending on the mettle of your fleet and that of your opponent, seeing the blob moving toward you has an element of tension that can be exciting.
But if your opponents are log-monkeys then it is very anti-climactic.
If you have even numbers, it is pretty tense. Although Ive noticed that even about 75% of the people Ive faced in Querious are "log monkeys" even when they are only outnumbered by like 10%.
But since the idea of a realistic, fluid warfare situation is to bring maximum force to bear on your enemy while limiting the amount of force he can bring to bear on you, then the idea situation is to outnumber your enemies. But if you DO outnumber your enemeis, they will notice without even sending a scout out and run, which is only logical. No one wants to get stuck in a trap where they have no chance of winning. Ive run away from a big blob too.
But damn I hate it. I say GET RID OF THE PILOTS IN SPACE FILTER. Im sure a zillion non-combat people will complain since its the easiest way to avoid a camped system, but I think that it would be the single greatest way to make frigates useful for combat. Without the PIS filter advanced scouts will be a requierment of any fleet. And skermishers to take out the advanced scouts of your enemy so they dont know your fleet composition will also be needed. Throw in the ability to warp to safespots, and fleet combat in this game will get 10x the depth it has now.
+++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Dan Daro
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:51:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Quote:
Great ideas here. I'd even say that independently-owned stations like Sanshas or Archangels wouldn't share data with empire information networks (so you'd need good NPC pirate faction to have access to their databases).
The "number of pilots in system" would rather come from data collected from the jump-gates, number of pilots that has jumped through...
And all that data would be in the hands of concord...
Even in 0.0 ?. I can't think of any reason why there is any sort of reporting to Concord of any pilot whereabouts in 0.0 space, surely the point is there is no law in 0.0
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.26 19:57:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Remove safespots and you've removed the problem. Everybody uses safespots (myself inculded, I might like a fight but I'm not completely stupid), but they're ruining combat.
I'm going to hold you to that quote 
Black Ops frigates should be brought in immediately - I don't care if the bp is awarded via the lottery or in a bloody event. It needs to be brought in.
Combine that with the removal of insta-bm's................
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Macumba
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Posted - 2004.03.26 20:06:00 -
[18]
I'll be the first to hold my hand up and say I've used safespots. If you're stuck in a system full of enemies without instas in a ship thats rigged for firepower over speed/shield what are you going to do? Sometimes the only option you're left with is to sit and wait, or maybe log off.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.26 20:17:00 -
[19]
I think this discussion boils down to a couple of things:
1) How do you control the number of pilots involved in a fight?
2) If you see a massive blob building up, why are you headed towards it like a moth to a flame?
Using SA/CA as an example, why do SA head towards U-Q when they see a CA blob there?
Can't you head around it (a long way, I know) and hit them elsewhere in small seperate forces? No matter how big CA are, they still have mining ops going on in GW etc, and you may get more effective/efficient kills that way.
Perhaps a little self-restraint should be shown by the pilots concerned.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Draximus Prime
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Posted - 2004.03.26 20:20:00 -
[20]
Every decent PvP player uses safespots.
Those who dont are one of two things : liars or noobs.
______________________
To dare in fields is valor; but how few dare to be throughly valiant to be true? |
Macumba
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Posted - 2004.03.26 20:32:00 -
[21]
You've answered your own question "it's a long way". To be honest there aren't really many blob wars between CA and SA. As crazy as the notion sounds there are fights.
The trouble with the map is it gives you completely the wrong impression. That blob you think could be a fleet gathering on your borders could just be a group of people travelling in both directions when the snapshot is taken. You've spent enough time down there Josh, how many false alarms are there?
The problem isn't the blobs. It's not being able to find the people you want to fight. Anybody can sit at a safespot and gather a force ready to strike, but you're never given the option of warping to that fleet while it's scattered and showing them the door.
Sod Black-Ops frigates, make a skill or a module that allows you to warp to a target, it's so simple. If people are given this option then you'd never see a blob war. It doesn't neccessarily mean that people will get ganked all the time (which is, I suspect, the reason CCP never introduced it in the first place, again they're afraid of upsetting people), it just means that people will have to be on their toes while they sit waiting for their friends to arrive. It's easy enough to chase people around planets, moons etc. but once they're in midspace then 90% of the time you're never going to get them.
Safespots make blobwars possible. Take them out and you'll drastically reduce the amount of blobwars. Blobwars between neighbouring systems are now a moot point as you can simply send a scout in (which most people used to do before the changes to jump-ins anyway), it's the blobwars that happen in a system where one force is left scratching their arse while the enemy just sits there laughing. Remove the ability to sit at a safespot indefinitely. It'll cure the problem overnight. |
Atar
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Posted - 2004.03.26 21:17:00 -
[22]
Something as simple as the cloaking device could have massive effects on the so called blob wars. Think about it!
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Embrace Death
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Posted - 2004.03.26 21:59:00 -
[23]
Glad to see this went somewhere and that people in another alliances/big corps agree with my point and are thinking of solutions. My favorite solution so far "remove safe points" which can easily be done by not allowing warps to even happen if you don't have the cap. I'll also back the statement about eliminating the "number of players in space" based on the security status(I'ld reccomend .4 or less).
Ya know the worst part about the "number of players in space" feature is when I activate it.. and look at the universe..
At least 80% of the EVE population is in noobland aka empire.  |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.26 22:00:00 -
[24]
Hey, don't knock Empire.
You get a lot of fights without the blob wars.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Kaiser
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Posted - 2004.03.26 22:16:00 -
[25]
Quote:
If any of you have been in alliance sized armies, or large pirate corps, you know that fleet warfare in EVE is mostly a sort of blob warfare where the group with the lesser "number of players in space" blob usually avoids the combat or proceeds with logoff wars. Very rarely do these blobs match up and become an actual battle. Additionally, scouting the owner of the blobs is far too easy.. All you need to do is enter the system and you are given a list in local of who is in the system, including their names, security status, and corp. For the betterment of actual warfare in this game, I think that the galaxy map features "pilots in space/docked", "ships destroyed in last 1/24 hours", and the ability to see everyone in "local" chat be removed or altered so that players may actually "hide" or heaven forbid use "tactics" to outwit eachother. I do not, however, propose that these methods be totally removed. One should in fact be able to enter a system with a special ship or setup to scan and possibly pinpoint people in that system(via scanner modules? who knows what CCP has in mind) I should go on to say this is neither a pro-carebear or pro-miner or pro-pirate proposition.. but I have class in an hour.. maybe later?
hey m8 :)
the question was already asked to CCP. they promised some black operation frigtes able to find safespots. and they also said they wanted to let ships in space and not disappearing when logging off. But, as usual, it was just a promise.
I am gainst removing people in space cause it's already very hard to find people...go figure if we also have no clue how many people are in an area...you can make 40 jumps to fountain to discover none there.
the solution is what CCP mentioned:
1) Ships which can find safe spots. So you can trap enemy and chase him.
2) Ships which remain in space when you log off (after attempting a warping to safe place).
But we won't see anytime soon. they asked a similar question in last CSM, and CCP answer was "not before shive" which doesn't mean "in shiva"...it means it was the usual bull**** said to keep us quiet.
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Kaiser
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Posted - 2004.03.26 22:24:00 -
[26]
maybe simply removing safespot is the solution.
Miners would still mine and watch local and so on.
you still have the log off problem but at least you would add a lot more fights without safe spots.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.03.26 22:27:00 -
[27]
They just need to make skills and modules specifically geared towards warping to objects on the scanner. Let's say at lvl 1, if you have the skill and the module you can warp to any object within 1 au. And if you train it to lvl 5 you could warp to any object on your scanner that was within 100au or something. But make the skill really tough to train, like rank 5 or higher, and make the requirements for the skill be some nav or electronics 5 skills.
Then make the module fitting requirements hurt your fighting abilities, which would force fleets to have specialized scouts.
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Sally
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Posted - 2004.03.26 22:45:00 -
[28]
PvP in EVE is fun, once someone starts to fight.
Map radar, local chat radar and instant log off with warp to safe spot while having enemies near and all of this in 0.0 including those stupid ping pong stations with no real purpose for small non-industrial parties is the most carebeared PvP I have seen in a MMORPG.
Ultra-consent PvP in the most dangerous areas of the galaxy brought to you by Carebear Controlled Productions.
--
Stories: #1
--
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Embrace Death
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Posted - 2004.03.26 23:20:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Embrace Death on 26/03/2004 23:21:52
So true, pingpong stations is a perfect name for them too lol.
~_~
Index of "How to avoid any risk for Dummies"
Chapter 1: Stay in Empire
Chapter 2: Log off at safespot if threatened
Chapter 3: Watch "players in space" and "local"
Chapter 4: Switch corps if war is declared on yours
Chapter 5: Equip 2 MWD and 5 warp core stableizers
Chapter 6: So you still got destroyed? Things you can do. See chap. 7 "Forum trolling and maintaining your carebear image" |
Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.03.27 00:58:00 -
[30]
-> remove "players in space", the "all-seeing-uber-map" and add med slot items to scan local players up to 4-5 jumps away and skills to use these items. Would be a great pvp boost for the game and work against blopwars.
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