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ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:09:00 - [1] I liked being able to go into 0.0 and not see anyone all day, when every target that I found wasn't nanoed up, or bait for a blob. I remember actually finding people mining or ratting belts in lowsec, and not everybody being at a gate, and when i did find a target being able to kill him before his blob could arrive, after wtz and some hp buffs this is no longer possible. His gang now gets to him faster and his tank lasts longer, which just makes more blobs, they will blob to save him of course, but then you are compelled to blob yourself just so you can pop that target before his blob arrives. And now the hp buffer makes it so that pvp has been moved to the gates, rather than the belts because more ships can tank the gate guns, which no longer serve as even a deterrent to anything but frigates, as i have even seen t1 cruisers tank gate guns. Eve now feels small and cramped, restricted even, it used to feel big and empty and free -as space should feel. And I long for the day that eve returns to the game that I played when I was a noob. instead of the small blobby uinverse that we have today. Edit: I think that as a counter for wtz the size of all systems should be increased by 50%, or the warp speed of all ships should be reduced by 50%. - This would make eve feel alot larger, and could also have a positive impact on blobbing and the enormous size of current 0.0 alliances. Also we would have less blob fight as less people could get to the fight as travel time would be alot higher. I think that the upcoming amarr boost will have a positive effect and be a small counter to the hp buffs. The only problem i still see are lowsec gate/station guns, I dont think that gatecamps should happen in lowsec like they do in 0.0. The guns should pose a threat to any ship. I think that with the upcoming factional warfare the factions need to see the importance of lowsec, and make more of an effort to protect theier assets there. Because of this additional guns have been placed at all gate and stations. Guns in .4 systems should be the most effective with .1 systems having about the same amount of defence as they do today. Here how i tink it should go .1 systems - remain the same .2 systems - 25% damage increase .3 systems - 2 additional guns, 25% damage increase .4 systems - 2 additional guns. 50% damage increase This would make it so that any ship would have a hard time ganking you in a .4, mosr guns means that even carriers/ms will have problems due to more guns being able to pop more drones A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Sophal	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:13:00 - [2] Translation: "I can't kill people anymore because I cannot adapt to change" QQ
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:18:00 - [3] Wait a second. Low sec camps were FAR more common in RmR than they are today. If anything, sentry guns need their damage reduced (but not unless CCP also adds more incentive for non-pirates to be in low sec, which is a separate issue.)
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:20:00 - [4] Originally by: Sophal Translation: "I can't kill people anymore because I cannot adapt to change" QQ I dont believe that CCP intended their changes to make blobbing common, and eve seem smaller. CCP just provides the game mechanics, the players decide how to use them, and will usually use them in the most effective manner. The current game mechanics make it that the blob is the most effective means of combat. The difference between the eve of then and the eve of now is that the current game mechanics make blobbing the most effective means, I dont think anyone likes the blob, but everyone will agree that the current game mechanics make it essential A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:23:00 - [5] But every ship has had their HPs increased. Just because fights take longer doesn't mean that those same two ships couldn't have had a tactically identical encounter before the HP change. I really don't think a difference in HPs is what causes blobbing. Besides its not like nobody ever flew with a gang before the blob fad.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Wait a second. Low sec camps were FAR more common in RmR than they are today. If anything, sentry guns need their damage reduced (but not unless CCP also adds more incentive for non-pirates to be in low sec, which is a separate issue.) Wile this is true the tools we had back then to actually stop people were less effective. Back then you chould fit ships that could actually run camps. The hictor has turned the lowsec gatecamp into a what a 0.0 gatecamp once was. Rather than nerf the hictor, you can make it less effective to camp a gate. This would also bring more players (aka targets) and trade into lowsec. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Dirk Magnum But every ship has had their HPs increased. Just because fights take longer doesn't mean that those same two ships couldn't have had a tactically identical encounter before the HP change. I really don't think a difference in HPs is what causes blobbing. Besides its not like nobody ever flew with a gang before the blob fad. The hp buffer with wtz is what increased the amount of blobs you see, the wtz made it so that a gang could get to its destination fater, and so that more people could get in the gang faster. The hp buffer made it so that the fight lasted longer, but also so that the enemy gang had more time to get there. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:29:00 - [8] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 03/02/2008 19:31:14 Originally by: Dirk Magnum But every ship has had their HPs increased. Just because fights take longer doesn't mean that those same two ships couldn't have had a tactically identical encounter before the HP change. Just pointing out here that both ship's hp being buffed does not result in a tactically identical encounter, the fight will last longer. Personally I think the gate guns are fine. The issue is that low sec has had a shockingly low amount of attention recently when it's a glaringly weak area in terms of content. _
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:32:00 - [9] I actually like that you have to work together to accomplish something. Maybe you should find a friend before you attack someone? ---
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:32:00 - [10] Migration out of low sec preceded the introduction of Hictors though. Low sec materials and rats need to be closer to 0.0 resources for Low sec to be a draw again I think. An introduction of a sort of sovereignty to Low sec not identical to 0.0, but at least having some of its features, might help draw more cohesive corps out to those areas (maybe make it impossible to claim Low sec sov if you also have 0.0 sov too, just to be on the safe side and prevent the major alliances from monopolizing areas closer to Empire core space.) I think a Low sec sov program could be part-and-parcel to faction war, since Low sec systems are still Empire-owned. Those empires could be leasing the space to some alliance as a protectorate area or something. It's a complex issue unfortunately, and I don't think CCP has released any information about any planned improvement lately.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Mark Lucius I actually like that you have to work together to accomplish something. Maybe you should find a friend before you attack someone? Small gangs are fine, but there is a gap between small gang and blob. A small gang is around 6 people. A blob is a gang of 20 or more. The problem isnt someone having a group of people com to assist them, actually those fights can be fun because reinforcements can come form both sides. The problem is you attack someone and a 20+ battleships roll in. Before all you could muster in time was a small gang, but with the wtz changes small gang encounters are less common, it increased mobility and made larger gangs of larger ships able to get to the same situation as fast as a small gang used to be able to. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:52:00 - [12] Originally by: ghosttr Small gangs are fine, but there is a gap between small gang and blob. A small gang is around 6 people. A blob is a gang of 20 or more. This depends on who you ask. If you are used to seeing 50+ fleets, 20 is not big. Originally by: ghosttr The problem isnt someone having a group of people com to assist them, actually those fights can be fun because reinforcements can come form both sides. The problem is you attack someone and a 20+ battleships roll in. Before all you could muster in time was a small gang, but with the wtz changes small gang encounters are less common, it increased mobility and made larger gangs of larger ships able to get to the same situation as fast as a small gang used to be able to. I am around long enough to have seen 20+ gangs move around with wtz before it became a feature. They were fast back then too. And don't forget that those 20+ battleships are all looking for a scrap too. You just offered it by attacking one of them. It's a logical situation that you can avoid. I am sorry, but it sounds like a 'I got ganked by big meanies'-whine. ---
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.03 19:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Mark Lucius I actually like that you have to work together to accomplish something. Maybe you should find a friend before you attack someone? Yeah,its great however now its just a my gang is bigger so sit in the station,i think the op's idea is great,the bigger space will make people think in a more tactical manner then before in order to be able to accomplish the"blob" This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Mark Lucius Originally by: ghosttr Small gangs are fine, but there is a gap between small gang and blob. A small gang is around 6 people. A blob is a gang of 20 or more. This depends on who you ask. If you are used to seeing 50+ fleets, 20 is not big. Originally by: ghosttr The problem isnt someone having a group of people com to assist them, actually those fights can be fun because reinforcements can come form both sides. The problem is you attack someone and a 20+ battleships roll in. Before all you could muster in time was a small gang, but with the wtz changes small gang encounters are less common, it increased mobility and made larger gangs of larger ships able to get to the same situation as fast as a small gang used to be able to. I am around long enough to have seen 20+ gangs move around with wtz before it became a feature. They were fast back then too. And don't forget that those 20+ battleships are all looking for a scrap too. You just offered it by attacking one of them. It's a logical situation that you can avoid. I am sorry, but it sounds like a 'I got ganked by big meanies'-whine. A battleship isnt supposed to be as mobile as it is, todays battleship can deploy as fast as yesterdays cruiser. And like i said before, the faster people can form up and move the more ships there will be. And no, i didnt get ganked or anything. Actually i was talking to some friends about eve. and decided to bring it to the forums. Eve has lost some of its charm from when I started playing. It has become more serious, like a second job almost, than a game. Eve has become smaller and more crowded. I just want eve to feel big and open again. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:14:00 - [15] Originally by: ghosttr I just want eve to feel big and open again. Sorry if I came across rude, there was no intention in that. I agree with you in this statement. I like your idea of making the difference in (warp) speed between bigger and smaller ships more pronounced. ---
Crax McGee Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:22:00 - [16] Ghosttr has it nailed, its a shame that the newer players cannot apreciate the old eve we used to play. 0.0 is rubbish now, jump bridges have made it a whole lot worse and it will only keep geettin worse as cov-op cyno's become more common aswell as titan jumps.. the days of going about 0.0 solo in a battleship are gone, i tryed it recently in foutian as an experiment to c if i could make it past the mega blob systems. i failed. those who say adapt are fair enought we will adapt. we have adpated. but the new eve is just not as good as the old eve.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Mark Lucius Originally by: ghosttr I just want eve to feel big and open again. Sorry if I came across rude, there was no intention in that. I agree with you in this statement. I like your idea of making the difference in (warp) speed between bigger and smaller ships more pronounced. Well lowsec also needs to be looked at, the hictor has made it so that movement can be restricted alot in lowsec. I think the hictor has done in job in nerfing the invulnerable lowsec ms, which was needed b/c it deterred people from coming to lowsec. The hictor is an even greater deterrent, and it has made it so that you can no longer stab up a ship and run it through lowsec, and has utterly nerfed blockade runners. I know that they can be countered, but alot of people in eve avoid combat, anf the majority of these people are your traders, manufacturers, etc. I dont think that nerfing the hictors abilities are the awnser to the problem, the improvements to the gate guns is the only way to open up traffic in lowsec. I think that if movement in lowsec is opened up where the average joe doent have to be have any experience in pvp that more people will come. Lowsec needs to be the place where new players can move out to and learn to pvp, but moving out is the hard part, the movement doesn't need to be restricted, but the opportunities do. People need time to ease into the pvp mindframe, and not just be thrown to the sharks. Opening up lowsec will also have the added benfit of making lowsec markets have more items, and of course adding more targets. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:43:00 - [18] Reducing opportunities in low sec even further won't help PvP any. PvP itself cannot be the main attraction to Low sec for the average player. PvP needs to be a symptom of low sec travel, not the sole purpose.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:46:00 - [19] Originally by: Sophal Translation: "I can't kill people anymore because I cannot adapt to change" QQ Kill a jump frieghter that cyno's to a pos and warps to the highsec entry gate
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:53:00 - [20] Edited by: ghosttr on 03/02/2008 20:55:04 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Reducing opportunities in low sec even further won't help PvP any. PvP itself cannot be the main attraction to Low sec for the average player. PvP needs to be a symptom of low sec travel, not the sole purpose. Well lowsec needs more content, more plexes, better belt rats (maybe a single cheapo bs here and there) more agents, and have bigger differences between sec, with .1 being alot better than .4. .4 really needs the defensive bonus ever since CCP made deploying starbases there require standings and charters. If im going to put a pos in .4 and pay the faction for it, they damn well be able to do something to protect thier renter. AS you go lower in sec the safty level decreases, but with increased opportunity. YOu need to get them in .4, where its relatively safe, and let them operate in relatively safety there, but with more danger than hi-sec. With the most dangerous part being people trying to access the resources they came to lowsec for. Then the lower secs should make people want to move there, but with increased risk. People should be able to slowly learn and as they learn they can go deeper into lowsec, and eventually to 0.0. But first they need an opportunity to move and travel there. It not about reducing oppurtunity for pvp, its about moving more people to lowsec. More people should mean more pvp, this type of pvp is belt pvp, not gatecamp pvp. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
F90OEX	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:53:00 - [21] With lowsec gate guns I think it should be, the bigger the gate camp/blob, more damage gate guns do. Also mining in lowsec is non existent, along with plex's been probed out. The old Eve as you knew it is long gone.. its either adapt or die more then ever.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 20:58:00 - [22] Originally by: F90OEX With lowsec gate guns I think it should be, the bigger the gate camp/blob, more damage gate guns do. Also mining in lowsec is non existent, along with plex's been probed out. The old Eve as you knew it is long gone.. its either adapt or die more then ever. Its only gone if you let it die, If you want something you have to fight for it. EVE more than any other mmo i know listens to its players. But for them to listen we have to say something first A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:12:00 - [23] The old Eve is gone now. The aging of the player base alone is enough to ensure this. Even so, I think we (players and CCP) are too quick to let go of the fun that the old eve provided and say "adapt or die" (it makes them feel all smart I guess) That said, I think its important to look at what the old Eve provided that the new Eve does not. Two things stand out if you read threads like this one. A sense of size and exploration. Small scale PVP. Plenty of solutions have been suggested; so many that I see no reason to go into depth here. Increase the number of solar systems. Increase the value of rats/minerals in many systems. Increase the content in systems - tactical envionments, more deployables, more exploration etc... Fix local - change or get rid of it entirely. I came up with a local solution myself. Right here If you don't like it, come up with your own. Ill be there to /sign it in a second if its good. My point is that there are solutions out there, many of them already on these forums. They just need more attention, more noise in the ears of the Devs. The old Eve is gone but there is no reason the new Eve cant be just as good.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:16:00 - [24] Originally by: ghosttr Edited by: ghosttr on 03/02/2008 20:55:04 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Reducing opportunities in low sec even further won't help PvP any. PvP itself cannot be the main attraction to Low sec for the average player. PvP needs to be a symptom of low sec travel, not the sole purpose. Well lowsec needs more content, more plexes, better belt rats (maybe a single cheapo bs here and there) more agents, and have bigger differences between sec, with .1 being alot better than .4. .4 really needs the defensive bonus ever since CCP made deploying starbases there require standings and charters. If im going to put a pos in .4 and pay the faction for it, they damn well be able to do something to protect thier renter. AS you go lower in sec the safty level decreases, but with increased opportunity. YOu need to get them in .4, where its relatively safe, and let them operate in relatively safety there, but with more danger than hi-sec. With the most dangerous part being people trying to access the resources they came to lowsec for. Then the lower secs should make people want to move there, but with increased risk. People should be able to slowly learn and as they learn they can go deeper into lowsec, and eventually to 0.0. But first they need an opportunity to move and travel there. It not about reducing oppurtunity for pvp, its about moving more people to lowsec. More people should mean more pvp, this type of pvp is belt pvp, not gatecamp pvp. Low sec out to be shoved out the airlock and either made 0.0 or raised to high sec status. There's no point to it at all. The content that would attract PvE players doesn't bring them out because of player pirates, and PvP is a joke because getting involved in it brings down the annoyance of global criminal timers that prevent proper hit and fades to stations or high sec systems. You either have law enforcement or you don't. Lowsec is just a half assed execution of a hybrid that doesn't really work to anyone's benefit in the grander scheme of things. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: ghosttr Edited by: ghosttr on 03/02/2008 20:55:04 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Reducing opportunities in low sec even further won't help PvP any. PvP itself cannot be the main attraction to Low sec for the average player. PvP needs to be a symptom of low sec travel, not the sole purpose. Well lowsec needs more content, more plexes, better belt rats (maybe a single cheapo bs here and there) more agents, and have bigger differences between sec, with .1 being alot better than .4. .4 really needs the defensive bonus ever since CCP made deploying starbases there require standings and charters. If im going to put a pos in .4 and pay the faction for it, they damn well be able to do something to protect thier renter. AS you go lower in sec the safty level decreases, but with increased opportunity. YOu need to get them in .4, where its relatively safe, and let them operate in relatively safety there, but with more danger than hi-sec. With the most dangerous part being people trying to access the resources they came to lowsec for. Then the lower secs should make people want to move there, but with increased risk. People should be able to slowly learn and as they learn they can go deeper into lowsec, and eventually to 0.0. But first they need an opportunity to move and travel there. It not about reducing oppurtunity for pvp, its about moving more people to lowsec. More people should mean more pvp, this type of pvp is belt pvp, not gatecamp pvp. Low sec out to be shoved out the airlock and either made 0.0 or raised to high sec status. There's no point to it at all. The content that would attract PvE players doesn't bring them out because of player pirates, and PvP is a joke because getting involved in it brings down the annoyance of global criminal timers that prevent proper hit and fades to stations or high sec systems. You either have law enforcement or you don't. Lowsec is just a half assed execution of a hybrid that doesn't really work to anyone's benefit in the grander scheme of things. I fell that it needs to be a place where new players can get into pvp, and the aspects of 0.0, a place for them to learn. But most people dont come to lowsec because of the in-your-face danger. I think you are right about the global timer though, the gate guns should provide more protection. But they should also be owned by the faction who owns the system, so concord wont intervene if you go into hi-sec. And sec status penalties should be lower. A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Terraisa Nichols The old Eve is gone now. The aging of the player base alone is enough to ensure this. Even so, I think we (players and CCP) are too quick to let go of the fun that the old eve provided and say "adapt or die" (it makes them feel all smart I guess) That said, I think its important to look at what the old Eve provided that the new Eve does not. Two things stand out if you read threads like this one. A sense of size and exploration. Small scale PVP. Plenty of solutions have been suggested; so many that I see no reason to go into depth here. Increase the number of solar systems. Increase the value of rats/minerals in many systems. Increase the content in systems - tactical envionments, more deployables, more exploration etc... Fix local - change or get rid of it entirely. I came up with a local solution myself. Right here If you don't like it, come up with your own. Ill be there to /sign it in a second if its good. My point is that there are solutions out there, many of them already on these forums. They just need more attention, more noise in the ears of the Devs. The old Eve is gone but there is no reason the new Eve cant be just as good. We dont need some new gimmick that will twist eve in yet another direction, I feel that making travel time what it once was will accomplish 'making eve bigger again' just fine. The increase can be accomplished by reducing warp speeds, and making the speed differences between classes of ships more pronounced. (aka, bses are slower, frigates are fastest) A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:33:00 - [27] Hmm.. Welp, yes Eve has changed so much you can no longer have fun. You should quit... But give me your stuff first and I will make sure it goes to good use, Im the girl momma warned you about..
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Donna Maria Hmm.. Welp, yes Eve has changed so much you can no longer have fun. You should quit... But give me your stuff first and I will make sure it goes to good use, All you will ever get from me is an ass full of laser A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/02/2008 21:45:41 Originally by: ghosttr Small gangs are fine, but there is a gap between small gang and blob. A small gang is around 6 people. A blob is a gang of 20 or more. It has been over a month since I last saw 20 or more people in a gang in low-sec. In fact, I've only seen it once. 6-7 man squads are typically the top of what I see, with up to 10 people available; most of my time is done either soloing or , on average, 2-3 man groups. Low-sec sentries are not trivial to tank, either. A T2-fit double MAR + 2x EANM II + 1x DC II hurricane, for instance, cannot tank them (even a tri-hardened setup fails slowly). Rigs are required, and using a rigged ship makes it so much much more expensive and less profitable to pirate. Cruisers, of course, have no chance (they can plate and survive it a bit though). That's the reality of sentries. Very organised gangs can lock down a gate very efficently (and could do so even before HICs), and they can still be run in small ships. Upping gate gun damage will do only the following: it'll take more blobbery to camp a gate efficently. Is this the direction we want to go to? As for the risk/reward or camps; solo and very small group campers have plenty of dangers. Just one competent combat cruiser jumping in on a agressed BC will melt it in 99% of cases. That's the reality of small gang gate camping. It's the big camps which are quite safe. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 21:44:00 - [30] I'm not sure how you interpret any of those things as gimmicks. Ive seen very compelling arguments for each. I agree with your suggestion of more firepower at the gate but I rather enjoy being able to quickly get to a fight a few systems over. Increasing the flight time through systems is an easy to implement but some large systems are boring to fly through as is. Fun is what new changes should aim for.

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