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Zanquis	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:17:00 - [1] Well I just wanted to touch on some core racial strengths and weakness' which are in the Caldari design, how that works out in the PvP world, and how things can be changed, if at all in order to make Caldari a well rounded PvP race too. First off lets examine racial strengths design of Caldari... -Rely on Shields -Weapon of Choice is missiles -Geared towards long ranged fights (Most every ship has a missle velocity bonus or if its a gun boat it has single or double 10%/level optimal range. Furthermore the targeting range on Caldari boats are generally long) -ECM Jamming is prefered warefare type Then the racial weakness design of Caldari.. -Slow moving ships -Not very agile -Weak armor -lack of choice (You can't armor tank, speed tank, and you have at best sub par gun boats leaving you with ECM and Missiles) Then lets take this all in perspective now... Shield Tanking and Utility This is a very strong tank which suffers lots of problems in PvP making them undesirable. The largest problem with shield tanking is that it uses mid slots as opposed to low slots and thus that has a very negative effect on utility. While this does leave opportunity to equip more damage modifiers such as BCU's and MFS's due to the low base damage of weapons Caldari ships are suited for this becomes more a matter of necessity in order to gain average to sub par damage rather then to gain high damage. The result is that a most Caldari designs end up with average dps, a decent tank, and no utility, or a weak tank and limited utility. Thus Caldari ships generally are fairly weak compared to other races in PvP since they often lack the basic utility required in PvP and can almost never fly alone as very few choose to weaken their tank to add utility because almost nobody support shield tanking leaving Caldari ships to survive alone without remote support. Furthermore this tends to leave Caldari ships without a role in a PvP group since the only thing they tend to bring to a fight is reliable damage since missiles do not track and while their damage is not that great, it is consistent thought range and is not effected as badly by speed as turrets. Shield tanking and Support Tanking using shields has one major weakness, it is unpopular. Combined with the fact that CPU heavy shield transfer modules are hard to fit that generally means that in any given fight a Caldari ship is left alone to tank it out. I often find that Caldari targets get called prime early because of this. This doesn't mean shield tanking is weak because an active shield tank is able to take more damage then an active armor tank most especially with the aid of shield booster amplifiers which can increase the effectiveness of a booster over 30% at the expense of a mid slot and a bucket of CPU. However active shield tanks are extremely inefficient in terms of capacitor use (a duel rep setup allows you the ability to turn off reps which are not required and stretch your cap out) which generally means using another mid slot for a cap booster further reducing utility. In large fleet battles passive tanks are the only way to go and shields can't passive nearly as good as armor can, but well enough. Additionally the skill requirements to shield tank are fairly hefty compared to armor tanking as you require 5 skills for basic tanking skills... Tactical Shield Manipulation (required IV) allows your shields to actually tank damage preventing bleed through to armor, also used for shield hardeners Shield Operation allows you to use shield boosters and reduces shield regeneration time 5%/level Shield Upgrades allows you to use shield extenders, resistance amps, and rechargers. Also reduces power grid cost which is important since Caldari ships are designed with less grid Shield Management allows you to use shield booster amplifiers and effects your shield max HP Shield Compensation reduces your capacitor use for each boost cycle. Only required or active shield tanking
Zanquis	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:18:00 - [2] There are most posts coming. This one will be edited with part 2 soon
Zanquis	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:49:00 - [3] So now that all the cards are on the table, whats my point? Well I would like to see more flexability in Caldari pvp and I would like to see their racial strengths and weakness adjusted to be more practical. One of the key strengths of Caldari is eliminated several times over by its weaknesses. Long range is today's pvp is just not a practical strength since your chances of setting up a sniper fight is very limited at best. With the abundance of Nano ships the need and use for snipers is also diminished since its far more effective for a Vegabond to travel at 7KM/s to that Rook which is jamming somebody and take him out of the fight and quickly return. This is further aggrivated by the fact that Caldari are naturally slow and not very agile which when combined with their lack of low slots makes it impossible to nano fit them and thus its not possible to gain or keep range on a target to make sniping a viable option for Caldari gun boats. So as a result Caldari gun boats end up with almost all their targets within their comfortable range and they end up hitting weakly since their boats generally have no damage bonus for gunnery. The largest problem with Caldari is that they are forced into Shield tanking and thus have no utility. I am at a loss with how to balance this because you would need some way to limit the kind of tank a caldari ship can make and also their utility separately. You can't just add mid slots because then your giving Caldari boats the option of fitting a ******** tank. This is just a balance issue which needs to be looked at closely, but changed. As far as shield tank support this is also a EXTREME issue which needs to be addressed and I can only say to fix this by making shield transporters easier to fit and balanced against remote armor rep. I would also recommend increasing the amount of shield tanks in other races once you find a way to fix the shield tank vs utility conflict.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:23:00 - [4] I don't see any easy way to make caldari better at solo pvp except by removing/changing all their racial specialties. Shield tanking is bad for solo pvp. Trying to use long range doesn't work in solo pvp. Being slow is bad in solo pvp. Having no drones is bad in solo PvP. Etc. However, caldari do make decent gang members, if for ECM, if nothing else. The change to torpedos helped make the raven a viable small gang/pvp battleship, which is nice. If only the caldari missile boats had the grid to fit hams, you'd see more of them too, I imagine.
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Zanquis ..and you have at best sub par gun boats leaving you with ECM and Missiles Stopped reading at that point. - Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:42:00 - [6] Originally by: Zanquis ..since its far more effective for a Vegabond to travel at 7KM/s to that Rook which is jamming somebody and take him out of the fight and quickly return. No wait I didn't.. WTF are you talking about? Let me tell you what happens in that situation. The stupid Vaga pilot comes at you and you put one minnie jammer on him, let him orbit you not being able to do anything, since he's being perma jammed while you spam precision missiles at him and laugh. - Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini
Zanquis	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:32:00 - [7] Luna Nilaya You are entitled to your own opinion and its obvious you do not agree. However you have offered nothing constructive to this argument and therefore if you have nothing to contribute you should not post here. Poking fun at what you do not agree with will not give you anything that remotely resembles an argument of substance or even a point.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:44:00 - [8] I fly Caldari solely in pvp and I think everything is fine. My ships work well solo and they work well in gang. They're good in support roles, and also in primary damage dealing. If I ever bother to train some gunnery skills, I'd have even more flexibility.
Athanasios Anastasiou The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Zanquis Luna Nilaya You are entitled to your own opinion and its obvious you do not agree. However you have offered nothing constructive to this argument and therefore if you have nothing to contribute you should not post here. Poking fun at what you do not agree with will not give you anything that remotely resembles an argument of substance or even a point. And you are doing the same thing... Instead of trying to refute his argument, you insult his posting maturity (I can't believe I am defending a goon). I would prefer to be with a falcon/rook to any other recon in the game for small gang pvp. I would even go as far as to say that ECM is overpowered on those recons. Caldari do NOT have subpar gunboats. After the eagle boost, it will be an uber antisupport ship and the rokh is flat out the best t1 sniper. I am strongly against a caldari solo vagabond-esque sort of ship. If every ship gets a solo ship, and a fleet ship, and a close range ship, etc, then we might as well as fly one race. Variety is a good thing.
Minsuki	Posted - 2008.02.06 00:32:00 - [10] Caldari's biggest problem: Tackling. Tanking. Pick one. Second problem: General lack of DPS, barring the kestrel, raven and eagle, and general uselessness of missiles at long range in PVP. Third problem: CCP apparently wants EWAR to stay only on bonused ships. Biggest problem with PVE: Except for ratting sansha's, I think, Caldari are undisputedly better than any other race at PVE, especially the raven, because of the complete freedom of choosing our damage type and range. Now, don't get me wrong. We arguably have the best battleship lineup in the game and hands down our ewar is the best in the game. But there are three things I want for a late christmas: 1. High-slot scrambler than can be fitted on any ship. Trading DPS for tackle wouldn't be so terrible, would it? 2. HAMs adjusted to be more in line with rockets and torpedos, either fitting and/or damage. 3. EWAR as an option, not useless or an I-WIN button. If I'm willing to dedicate 2-3 mids and 1-2 lows on a cruiser to some form of EWAR, can I please get some advantage out of it?
Zanquis	Posted - 2008.02.06 01:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/02/2008 23:58:35 Originally by: Zanquis Luna Nilaya You are entitled to your own opinion and its obvious you do not agree. However you have offered nothing constructive to this argument and therefore if you have nothing to contribute you should not post here. Poking fun at what you do not agree with will not give you anything that remotely resembles an argument of substance or even a point. And you are doing the same thing... Instead of trying to refute his argument, you insult his posting maturity (I can't believe I am defending a goon :P). I would prefer to be with a falcon/rook to any other recon in the game for small gang pvp. I would even go as far as to say that ECM is overpowered on those recons. You mention a vaga could chase off a falcon... How is that different from any other recon (bar amarr ofc, but amarr recons don't really have 'gang-oriented' bonuses)? Would a arazu be able to stand ground if a vaga charges at it? At least the falcon as the advantage of range an therefore more time to ECM away. Caldari do NOT have subpar gunboats. After the eagle boost, it will be an uber antisupport ship and the rokh is flat out the best t1 sniper. I am strongly against a caldari solo vagabond-esque sort of ship. If every ship gets a solo ship, and a fleet ship, and a close range ship, etc, then we might as well as fly one race. Variety is a good thing. Think what you will as I did my best to keep my response as politically correct as possible. If you could find offense with that then I guess there really is nothing I can think of which would ask him to quit posting unless he wanted to contribute to the discussion rather then ridicule it. In any case if you read the post, I do not dispute the power of our ECM when I evaluated the strength and weakness of Caldari as a whole. You attempt to attack my point on the vega and end up reinforcing my point that the role of anti support sniper is watered down in today's nano world. Yes any other support ship which is hit by a vega is also in trouble, and yes the falcon likely will fare the best due to the overall strength of ECM. I would like to know how you can say Caldari are not sub par gun boats when the only Caldari gun boat with a damage bonus is the Eagle heavy assault cruiser. While after the changes most Caldari gun boats will be capable, they will be sub par so long as the definitely of par would be the average of what all gun boats of all other races can accomplish. Considering the only race who doesn't get damage bonuses to their turrets all the time is Amarr, and lasers are higher dps then rail guns. One can assume that Caldari damage would fall bellow par if not equal to at best even considering the use of MFSII's. Also I have at no point stated that I wanted a solo Caldari ship. Though I do think Caldari should have all the same options of engagement types that other races have too. If somebody chose to be a solo or duo using Caldari, they should be able to do it just as well as any other race. Right now a Caldari player would have much more difficulty solo then another race, but in a duo situation they would be quite useful so long as somebody else is there who can tackle. My point is Caldari gun boats need to have a more of a role then just anti support sniper which is all their range bonus seems to give them at the moment. That role is limited role to give for a racial strength. To make that a significant advantage worthy enough to replace a damage bonus, one would have to change the way most small to medium scale combat exists today in eve. In large fleet engagements Caldari ships and their bonus' do in fact have a home, most notably the Rokh.
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.06 02:13:00 - [12] Tank, Gank, Tackle. Pick 2 and move along Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:48:00 - [13] Edited by: DuPuy on 06/02/2008 04:52:53 I think the point is Caldari can generally only choose one of those three options... not two... Caldari tank = reduced gank and no (zero) takle... Caldari gank = greatly reduced tank and no/minimal takle... Caldari takle = greatly reduced tank and reduced gank... But, while not great is massive fleet battles or solo pvp, Caldari does shine in mid-sized gangs - an unfortunately rapidly diminishing feature of EVE ATM. But the game goes in cycles. We adapt :)
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.06 06:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 06/02/2008 06:31:50 Dear god, the amount of whining in this thread is pathetic... seriously, I fly Caldari, with one exception: the Heretic, and mostly because I look pretty before I insta-pop. As Caldari, you get (and notice no mention at all of PvE performance, ANY race can run missions): 1) Awesome ECM ships capable of being a real pain in fleets (at least until you die), or just simply dominating small-gang fights. Flying a Falcon, I can usually count on taking the 1-3 most dangerous opponents out of the fight completely, from a nice safe 150km distance. And that's after scouting the fight and setting a warp-in point for my fleet. 2) The best anti-support snipers for fleet battles. The Eagle is just perfect for the role, and getting even better with the next patch. If the Vulture gets a 6th gun slot to keep up, it will join the Eagle as an excellent ship. The Harpy is the only AF that's even remotely worth flying. 3) A solid fleet railboat, one that will only get better if/when CCP gets around to fixing that annoying 250km lock cap. The Rokh does solid damage, can easily fit a DD tank while still hitting sniper ranges, and is trivially easy to fit. 4) Decent up-close blaster ships. You get less dps, but far better tank and some pretty nice range with neutrons and Null ammo. Sure, they're only good in gangs, but you can just swap your rails for blasters when your friends want to go close-range. 5) Solid missile boats. You take a hit in flight time and point-blank damage, but you get the highest long-range damage and tracking-free cap-free damage that easily hits smaller targets. Oh yeah, and I hear the torp-Raven is good or something, if you actually learn what a target painter is. There are only two problems with Caldari: 1) Even with the latest patch, the Vulture and Ferox still lack the full amount of gun slots. 7 each and those two ships are fixed. 2) Caldari ships are way too slow. The entire race is designed around having a range advantage, but they have no real way to keep it. Other than that, Caldari ships are fine. Just remember the fundamental rule: Solo. PvP. Caldari. Pick two. Keep this in mind, and you'll do just fine.
Celedris Stimulus	Posted - 2008.02.06 06:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Zanquis Long range is today's pvp is just not a practical strength since your chances of setting up a sniper fight is very limited at best. With the abundance of Nano ships the need and use for snipers is also diminished since its far more effective for a Vegabond to travel at 7KM/s to that Rook which is jamming somebody and take him out of the fight and quickly return. This is further aggrivated by the fact that Caldari are naturally slow and not very agile which when combined with their lack of low slots makes it impossible to nano fit them You have no idea what you are talking about and you have never fought with a competent Caldari recon pilot. Caldari is just fine in general (yes they suck at 1v1 who cares), and I can't even believe you are arguing about ECM. The Falcon is probably the single most threatening ship in the game for small/med gang combat. Oh, Vagabond sensor strength = 14 points (they do NOT fit ECCM ever) My Falcon w/ Matari Racial = 14.1 point sensor strength (i.e. 100% jam chance) Forget about the fact that with rigs a Falcon can hit 198km range (194 optimal) in gang without even fitting a sensor booster; Even if a Vagabond gets to you it has zero chance of ever locking a max-skilled & properly fit Falcon/Rook. It may provide a warp-in point for other ships but it has no chance of ever locking/killing you unless you fail to jam it before he drops his drones at 40-50km and even then you can just warp out. I have had Vagas & Intys circling me like sharks in the water at 150km+ outside a fight and I didn't even bother to warp out or switch sniper points because nothing else was able to warp to them and they were no threat to me by themselves.
Duke nukam	Posted - 2008.02.06 06:55:00 - [16] I agree there are to many short comings when it comes to caldari. number one i feel is the low DPS of all the ships. Lets face it a raven just could never stand up to a mega. really Caldari does not have a good stand up ship. Number two they have no abilty to have a good tank setup. I tried some many setups and none work great even people who think they have a good tank one round with my mega you are toast no way around it. CCP really needs to look at improving Caldri. Oh yes the range thing yes Caldri has good range but missiles are slow i have warped out before a missle has even hit me because they where to far away. the reange thing is just no help what needs to happen is a raven need a shield boast of some kind maybe like the rohk. Really Caldari needs changes in lot of areas.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Duke nukam I agree there are to many short comings when it comes to caldari. number one i feel is the low DPS of all the ships. Lets face it a raven just could never stand up to a mega. really Caldari does not have a good stand up ship. Target painters. Use them. Torps + target painter = dead Megathron. Unless that Megathron starts at point blank range, you have almost as much damage, better range, and better HP (gank Megathron can't active tank). Quote: Number two they have no abilty to have a good tank setup. I tried some many setups and none work great even people who think they have a good tank one round with my mega you are toast no way around it. Skills. Train them. If you actually bother training skills to fly Caldari well, you get better tanks than any other race. Obviously you can kill them with your highly overrated gank Megathron, no sub-capital ship in the game can tank a sustainable 1200 dps. But that's assuming they start at point-blank range, don't use ECM, you don't ever run out of cap yourself, etc. By the way, put a remote cap transfer on my Vulture and I'll tank your Megathron until downtime. You won't even get me below 95% shields. Quote: CCP really needs to look at improving Caldri. Oh yes the range thing yes Caldri has good range but missiles are slow i have warped out before a missle has even hit me because they where to far away. the reange thing is just no help Repeat after me: Caldari ships are not solo ships. You'll find those missiles a lot less amusing when a Crow has you scrambled and that Cerberus 150km away is ripping you apart. Missile flight time is a bit annoying in large fleet blobs due to the insta-pop problem, but it's not that bad in smaller fights. And once those missiles start hitting, you have excellent damage. And by the way, Caldari have more than just missiles. If you don't like flight time, railboats are your friend. Quote: what needs to happen is a raven need a shield boast of some kind maybe like the rohk. Really Caldari needs changes in lot of areas. No, the Raven does NOT need a shield bonus. Both missile velocity and ROF are good bonuses, and dropping one of them would kill the ship. And Caldari ships do NOT need changes in a lot of areas, they need exactly two changes (as stated above) to solve all of their PvP problems.
Rn Bonnet Free Collective The OSS	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:44:00 - [18] Edited by: Rn Bonnet on 06/02/2008 07:45:16 Thats not actually quite true, a blaster rokh actually will win 1v1 a mega since its tank is so much better. Same with a torp raven. Caldari battleships are acceptable if not good for PvP (not solo, but who cares?). someone I know once said combat is a race to hull 0, in that case the rokh and raven will both win 90% of the time (given equal skills) since they don't have to sacrifice tank to get gank. For example a gank Mega with 7x Neutron II's firing void, 3xMagstabII's, 5x Orge II's with max skills does 1265 dps. A Rokh with 8x Neutron II's firing void, 3x Magstab II's, 5x Hammerhead II's does 1026dps while fitting a buffer tank for over 172,000hp. The megathron on the other hand is looking at a tank between 70,000 and 100,000 for effective hp for buffer, with significantly lower resist towards most damage types. It should be obvious who wins. The problem with Caldari lies with the tech I frigates, cruiserse, and BC's.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2008.02.06 09:06:00 - [19] Mr Bonnet - A Rokh doesn't automaticall win against a Megathron... It's posible (maybe even likely), but definately not guaranteed... Otherwise I agree that caldari doesn't have the most easy pvp fittings, BUT in the last efforts from CCP it has actually become possible. The lack of shield tank as the most obvious problem and also the almost useless gunboats (rokh being the contradiction and now finally getting some extra turrets on the Moa, Eagle and Ferox). I really wouldn't change Caldari too much these days. Maybe dishing out with more medslots for a ship like the Moa, the Ferox, the Nighthawk - but it has to be done with care and I'm not sure about losing lowslots which are actually also nice. - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:43:00 - [20] Edited by: NeoTheo on 06/02/2008 11:46:19 Originally by: Luna Nilaya Originally by: Zanquis ..since its far more effective for a Vegabond to travel at 7KM/s to that Rook which is jamming somebody and take him out of the fight and quickly return. No wait I didn't.. WTF are you talking about? Let me tell you what happens in that situation. The stupid Vaga pilot comes at you and you put one minnie jammer on him, let him orbit you not being able to do anything, since he's being perma jammed while you spam precision missiles at him and laugh. ok seen as he didnt refute your arguement, i will. at this point, the drones from the Vaga (25 bandwidth if i rememmber) auto agress and bbq the paper thin rook in seconds. /Theo. PS i dont agree with the OP anyhow, but your arguement was flawed, rooks are pretty useless in that situation cause of the drone auto agree thing.
Chencherra Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Chencherra on 06/02/2008 12:20:01 if you want hi dps turrets and tackling + a nice tank, why not skill gallente instead of changing caldari ships to gallente-like ships ? ever thought what a vaga could do to an arazu? btw if caldari ships get range bonus to hybrid turrets, maybe they are meant for sniping, not for closerange combat. you know that you dont need tackling gear on a sniper since you will never be in tackling range. you can fit tons of dmg or tracking mods in the spare low slot plus you got a decent tank. again, if you wanna go closerange with blasters, skill gallente. what role should gallente have if caldari get all the closerange tackling blasterboats?
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:33:00 - [22] I think everything would be just fine, if Caldari ships would be a bit faster and more manouverable. The often misleading description of the different races ships bothers me more. Amarr and Gallente are portrayed as having slow, but heavily armored and armed ships. Minmatar description ist ok in my opinion, but Caldari ships are not what i thought they are. ECM works only for specialized ships, and they are even slower as those fat Amarr and Gallenteships, rendering their rangebonus nearly useless. So my uber-hightech ships are unable (unlike the armor tankers) to fit the PvP-must-haves and some survivability.
Chencherra Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Karl Luckner So my uber-hightech ships are unable (unlike the armor tankers) to fit the PvP-must-haves and some survivability. if you want missile spamming armor tankers, go for amarr t2! btw caldari speed / manouverability was boosted with last patch, wasnt it? maybe I didnt get the sarcasm in this thread. why do so many people want same ships for any race ? why not skill the race that already has that uberwtfpwn!!!111oneone solo machine instead of complaining and crying. btw I want 2 more med slots on my deimos and more falloff + tracking for my guns and a lil more speed. Look mom, i built a vagabond ! hey, why dont we give caldari armor tanking ships and take away those pesky missiles? they dont even do instant damage! give'em some blasters and some drones... maybe we should give amarr ships 1 more med slot, take one highslot, lower laser dmg mod and tracking and give them exp, em and kin dmg ? and give them shield tanks, yeh that would be fair. or give any battleship same slot layout, same bonus, same hardpoints and same number of hitpoints, now that would be balanced !!! bah i hate you
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:13:00 - [24] 5% speed buff on all Caldari ships. 'Nuff said.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.06 18:07:00 - [25] In my opinion, the biggest problem with shield tanking battleships is the lack of mid slots. armor tanking bs have 7-8 mid slots. Shield tanking bs max out at 6, same number as some battlecruisers get. Swap a low for a med?
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2008.02.06 18:14:00 - [26] - solo PvP is DEAD! - small gang-PvP (<10) is DEAD! => So don't bother!!! ------------- - totally useless in PvP is active shield boosting - passive shield tanking is a very big advantage If you use smaller weapons like heavy assault missile lauchers + precisions on Cruiser/BS size you can fit a bigger passive tank (you are slow anyway - for running away, drop them to cargo and use your MWD) Same on BS like Scorps (heavy precision vs the nasty HAC/recons and smarties vs drones). Only on the Raven I would use torps or cruise, if you have the damage dealer role. Cladari have also nice turret boats, also for close range PvP (maybe except blaster Rokhs, they are weak Megas)
Chencherra Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.02.06 18:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Cedric Diggory 5% speed buff on all Caldari ships. 'Nuff said. plus better agility ! what do you want ? a caldari vagabond ? whats your point in changing caldari to speed tankers?
Zanquis Caldari CSS Ltd. FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:47:00 - [28] For a well written post this has attracted quite the group of people who are just against any possible change to Caldari boats. If you look at just how many people use Caldari in PvP you can see there is a problem. I don't recall asking for solo pwnboats, Vegas, or anything of that sort. People just love to take it to one extreme or the other in order to reinforce their point (if they even have one) and make the other look bad taking them out of context. The words intelligent discussion seem to be dead on arrival here since all I got is a few people who are very adamant that Caldari are fine and choose to act like they are the all knowing kings of PvP in Eve and that everybody who is not them and had their select group of differences happens to be an idot. I am no newbie pilot myself and I can assure you I am a very capable Caldari PvP pilot. These are my observations and yes I do work well within these restraints, however there are way too many restraints. In fact since most arguments I have against this post boil down to taking something out of context then blowing it off the deep end followed by saying that if you want ___________ you should fly another race basically supports my point. Of all the races Caldari is least flexible in terms of options. I support this by pointing out... 1) No choice of tank type (Armor tanking ships can choose between armor tank or speed tank since speed tanking also is low slot heavy) 2) No choice of combat style. (Sniper or nothing right now. Though they have been making changes to closer range higher damage variants of missiles the lack of utility due to shield tanking prevents you from being able to close and tackle your target to prevent them from leaving your range) 3) No utility (The use of mid slots of tank and the fact that most time a shield tank stands alone with no support means that Caldari ships have to choose to live or to have utility. Not both! This restriction on mid slots harms Caldari's flexibility the most) I still really do not see how you can believe that the racial strength "long ranged fighting" goes well with "Slow moving ships" and "Not very agile". Long range fighting is all about staying in your element in any game and even reality. If your all about range, your technology should also support that, not hinder it. This is one of the reasons why when ranged weaponry came into existence speed and mobility became more of a factor then how much armor your wearing. [color=#BF0040]Fleet Commander of CSS Ltd.[/color]
Minsuki	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:11:00 - [29] Caldari are overall the most agile in the game, but slowest, AFAIK. As far as fluff goes, the agility makes sense, but seeing as how we're barely fast as the Amarr, the real armor tankers of the game, something's a little...off. I'm not saying, "OMG, buff Caldari so there's no point to flying any other race." Sure, any race can do both PVE and PVP, but caldari seem to have traded away solo PVP for PVE prowess. I honestly have no idea how to buff other races as far as PVE goes, perhaps a mission runner or ratter could help there. I would just like to see a day when you don't have to choose between caldari, pvp and solo. Also, Gordon Red, there's this thing called lowsec. You should go there someday.
Shamsah Malik Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Minsuki Caldari are overall the most agile in the game, but slowest, AFAIK. While I haven't gone through all the agility modifiers of caldari vs other races. Even if Caldari agility modifiers were better, it doesn't make caldari the most agile. The mass of the ships are so high, that they are still the slowest and least agile ships in the game. Except for the Crow.

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