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Investment Opportunity - 10-30% reliable weekly turnover

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Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 06:59:00 - [1] To put it simply my clan and I are offering the opportunity to assist in a computer-assisted margin trading operation. Investors will receive weekly returns of between 10% and 30% (depending on the specifics of the investment). Although we have yet to test abilities of our operation with more than 200m ISK in capital, we have seen successful weekly returns of well over 50% a week thus far and expect the rate of return to only increase over time. I won't go bother going into specifics on the forums simply because the character count limits me from properly explaining things. We have uploaded a simple PDF file to our site though that contains specifics on who we are, how we are generating these returns, how your investment will be used, and the exact formula we use for weekly returns. If you're interested you can view the PDF document at this link. The PDF states this same information, but just for the sake of repetition, if you have any questions please feel free to direct them to either myself in-game, or you can email our clan leaders directly at troy dot graves at yahoo dot com and gtg765q at mail dot gatech dot edu. Serious inquiries only please.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:13:00 - [2] You do realize you just admitted breaking the EULA, do you ? If your program would just process manually created market data dumps, and would signal you what's best to buy/sell, it would have been ok. But you claim it to automatically parse the market, automatically place or modify orders, etc. So, what you are doing is technically in breach of the EULA. Also, even assuming what you say is true (your program actually exists and works as described) and you would modify it so it would no longer be in breach of the EULA (a lot more actual work for you, the players using it), it still doesn't answer the question of "why would anybody invest in YOU guys". 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:19:00 - [3] I was actually worried about this being in breach of the EULA myself and so I specifically asked CCP folks about. From our discussion it was decided that our program was not in specific breach of the EULA because it did not directly intercept or modify any packet information. It's still close, but that only puts it into a sort of gray area. I made sure to get the assurance that, at the very least, we would be contacted first if it was eventually decided that we should shut down our operation. As for investing in us, I'd imagine the reason would be obvious: Making money is nice.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:30:00 - [4] Originally by: Clara Klein I was actually worried about this being in breach of the EULA myself and so I specifically asked CCP folks about. From our discussion it was decided that our program was not in specific breach of the EULA because it did not directly intercept or modify any packet information. It's still close, but that only puts it into a sort of gray area. I have trouble believing what you just said, for two completely separate reasons. First, the less serious one, the fact that talking to one light-headed GM hardly constitutes assurance of anything, and another GM could simply come in and ban you directly even if the first told you it's ok. Second, and this is the kicker, by your reasoning, macro-mining programs would ALSO be a "grey area", since, well, they don't do anything "illegal", nothing a player couldn't do. Quote: As for investing in us, I'd imagine the reason would be obvious: Making money is nice. And giving money to somebody, never getting anything back... or installing some program that actually does nothing but harvests your passwords... not so nice. Not that you guys would do anything like that, but you never know. You certainly don't quite inspire trust, if you know what I mean... outrageous claims of obvious EULA breaches being condoned by CCP, site "under construction" (and as such, no verifiable links) and so on and so forth. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Miss CJB Gallente In White Suits	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:32:00 - [5] macroing & account shairing, you need hitting with the ban stick.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:38:00 - [6] Ignoring EULA issues and viability of the investment, I don't suppose you have some credentials such as a main with a reputation or someone that can vouch for you? 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:40:00 - [7] The difference between most macro-mining or standard bot operations is that they do break the EULA in a very clear-cut way. They intercept and modify packets from client to server. This is actually the easiest way to design a bot, hence why it's normally done this way. It's much easier to read a packet telling you your cargo hold is full and then sending another packet out to start warping to stargate x than it is to do what we've done, and harvest the information directly through the client, which is technically legal. To further clarify, we are not account sharing either. All the members of the clan are just given a copy of the program which they run when they aren't using their account.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:41:00 - [8] reported,, --
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Ignoring EULA issues and viability of the investment, I don't suppose you have some credentials such as a main with a reputation or someone that can vouch for you? As I've noted, no EULA issues were ignored. They were specifically addressed in the design of the program, and in direct contact with CCP. We are unfortunately too new to have much of a reputation as a clan in Eve, but I can certainly provide credentials from other games where we are better known (Shadowbane, for instance) and I'd be happy to have some non-clan friends who helped with the initial seed funds vouch for me.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:45:00 - [10] Reported this to a GM. I hope you get bansticked
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Clara Klein Originally by: Kwint Sommer Ignoring EULA issues and viability of the investment, I don't suppose you have some credentials such as a main with a reputation or someone that can vouch for you? As I've noted, no EULA issues were ignored. They were specifically addressed in the design of the program, and in direct contact with CCP. We are unfortunately too new to have much of a reputation as a clan in Eve, but I can certainly provide credentials from other games where we are better known (Shadowbane, for instance) and I'd be happy to have some non-clan friends who helped with the initial seed funds vouch for me. Unless you can prove that you have had any communication with CCP, im gonna call bull****. CCP would by no means allow such things as you describe.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Clara Klein reputation as a clan in Eve There are no clans in Eve, I suggest in the future if you wish to scam and/or violate the EULA in a game, do a bit of research first. --
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:57:00 - [13] Either you're lying about talking to the GM or the GM didn't understand what you meant. It's probably ok to automate data extraction from the client, and that's what the GM may have thought you meant. Reading your document I'm pretty sure your tool (assuming this isn't just a scam, which honestly is more likely) actually makes buy and sell orders automatically, which most assuredly is against the TOS without any question.
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:57:00 - [14] Originally by: LaVista Vista Unless you can prove that you have had any communication with CCP, im gonna call bull**. CCP would by no means allow such things as you describe. Actually posting chatlogs with CCP folks IS against the EULA though, hah. Tell you what. You've all reported me right? So assuming that this is technically illegal, I will be banned, right? If, however, I am not banned would that then substantiate the fact that this is - in fact - acceptable to CCP under the terms of the EULA? I can't post direct communication with them, of course, but the simple act of not being ban ought to be proof enough that this is acceptable. Originally by:** Treelox There are no clans in Eve, I suggest in the future if you wish to scam and/or violate the EULA in a game, do a bit of research first. At least the other dudes have something reasonable to bust balls about, buddy. This is just nitpicking. I've called them clans ever since I was 12 years old playing Diablo. I kept calling them clans even in Shadowbane when they were called guilds, and I'll probably keep calling them clans here.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 08:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Clara Klein Originally by: Treelox There are no clans in Eve, I suggest in the future if you wish to scam and/or violate the EULA in a game, do a bit of research first. At least the other dudes have something reasonable to bust balls about, buddy. This is just nitpicking. I've called them clans ever since I was 12 years old playing Diablo. I kept calling them clans even in Shadowbane when they were called guilds, and I'll probably keep calling them clans here. Just trying to help you with the knowledge of vets, that according to your .pdf is what your seeking. Trust me while I may be the only one to bring it to your attention, it is most likely annoying most of the others to some degree, if you continue to use the word "clan" instead of "corp". --
Yoko Kringe	Posted - 2008.02.06 08:21:00 - [16] Tell you what, you done a fantastic write up. Probably too detailed if you ask me. Also your screenshots in the PDF aren't correctly sorting your buy/sells so you should fix that up. If this wasn't a blatant EULA violation I would say it's a great business plan. Unfortunately I can't see CCP allowing it now or for long as it's way too close to the grey line. If CCP allow this they open the floodgates to other programs doing similar things. (Ricdic alt)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.06 08:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Clara Klein Actually posting chatlogs with CCP folks IS against the EULA though, hah. Actually, it's just against forum regulations. And the "ban on GM chatlogs" usually aims at protecting individual GMs involved against gratutious accusations of favoritism (or the exact opposite). Paraphrasing GM conversations instead of posting them verbatim, removing the name of the GMs involved, ESPECIALLY when a game mechanics issue is concerned is barely allowed. Personally, in case this is a legit operation, I would petition it again or escalate the previous petition to a higher level to get a conclusive answer... and explain to them BETTER what your program does... namely, AUTOMATICALLY browse and create orders on the market, without any human interaction barring the program's start. I am quite sure the answer will come very fast, as a definite "no, this is not allowed". Quote: Tell you what. You've all reported me right? So assuming that this is technically illegal, I will be banned, right? If, however, I am not banned would that then substantiate the fact that this is - in fact - acceptable to CCP under the terms of the EULA? I can't post direct communication with them, of course, but the simple act of not being ban ought to be proof enough that this is acceptable. Nah, I haven't reported you, but most others would have. But no, you are mistaking, you probably won't instantly get banned. More likely, your post will be locked, and you would be given a forum warning, since this "reporting" is mainly for forum transgressions... a GM MIGHT just contact you telling you it's wrong, if he'd get notified by the one handling the forum reports. Even more likely, absolutely nothing will happend until several months later, when ALL participating accounts would get suddendly banned together. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2008.02.06 08:42:00 - [18] Well isn't this interesting... certainly lots to talk about. Firstly, I've just skimmed both your document and the EULA so I may have missed things, however, I refer you to section 7.A.3 of the EULA: Quote: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. For me, this definition clearly includes what you are doing. Even if it wasn't covered, I consider it to be both morally wrong and against the spirit of the game. If you've got what you say you've got then I would say bravo on your efforts, it would have taken some serious work to put together. However I think you're making the whole thing up. If you had it then you would not need our cash and you wouldn't come here posting about it to the whole world without reading the EULA first. Now, lets assume everything was not against the EULA and you do actually have this program. You really expect people to invest billions in a system that has only proven itself with 200 mil?! I think many of us in MD can return 50%+ per week on 200 mil. Returning 30% per week on multiple billions is an entirely different ball game, even for an automated system. Conclusion: This is either a scam or a terribly thought out idea. Either way steer well clear of this one. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.02.06 08:45:00 - [19] I knew the % rate was too good to be true. Eve Corp Web Design \| Eve Online Addicts
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 08:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Ambo I think many of us in MD can return 50%+ per week on 200 mil. Returning 30% per week on multiple billions is an entirely different ball game, even for an automated system. Its frankly easy to return at least 10%/weekon 10bill capital. 1 bill will be even easier. Leave alone 200mill. And that is just spending about 4-10 minutes per day. If you have a 23/7 operation, which is automated, you should be able to pull waaaaay more than 30%
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 09:05:00 - [21] Since the consensus seems to be that folks would find this offer interesting only if it were vetted by CCP, I'm going to be placing it on hold until such time as I can get a confirmable CCP response. I'm confident that the specifics of the programs have been designed in a manner as to ensure its technical legality, and I'm certain CCP will be able to verify that. Until such time, those interested can register their interest with me in-game or email either of the addresses above, and I'll see to it they're notified once we've received such a response from CCP. Originally by: LaVista Vista Its frankly easy to return at least 10%/weekon 10bill capital. 1 bill will be even easier. Leave alone 200mill. And that is just spending about 4-10 minutes per day. If you have a 23/7 operation, which is automated, you should be able to pull waaaaay more than 30% Yep. I listed 50%+ simply because I would rather not list our specific average weekly profit, and simply wanted to establish the fact that 10-30% returns was well within our capability to guarantee.
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2008.02.06 09:07:00 - [22] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Ambo I think many of us in MD can return 50%+ per week on 200 mil. Returning 30% per week on multiple billions is an entirely different ball game, even for an automated system. Its frankly easy to return at least 10%/weekon 10bill capital. 1 bill will be even easier. Leave alone 200mill. And that is just spending about 4-10 minutes per day. If you have a 23/7 operation, which is automated, you should be able to pull waaaaay more than 30% Possibly. However, reading between the lines, these people are asking for 20bil+ investments from multiple people. Getting 100s of billions into the system that quickly is not easy, particularly if you are reliant on real people for transport. More importantly though - it's not been tested. I NEVER EVER count on an automated not to fail unless it's been rigorously tested and even then I'm very wary. If these guys were capping investment at say 10 bil for now with expansion plans in a few months then it would be more reasonable but I still wouldn't believe a word of it. I've also looked into the backgroud of ASMS a little more. This made me laugh: Quote: Initially establishing itself in Shadowbane, Clan ASMS began to first operate under the simple principle that its route to power would not be through overwhelming numbers or unmatched skill, but by simple economic dominance. By eventually coming to manage several of the largest merchant cities on the Mourning server through various front guilds, Clan ASMS soon found itself rich enough to direct much of the politics of the server from the shadows through the simple supply of gold and equipment. I see so your clan wont show up on any records but you really did control everything... right. I also did some simple googling to find out more about this group that had controlled a Shadowbane server and made imense amounts of money in WOW. The result: A HL clan with 2 members and some scottish dude on xfire who likes to play Jedi Academy. Despite multiple searches I found nothing about a clan with that name even existing in WOW or Shadowbane. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 09:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Ambo More importantly though - it's not been tested. I NEVER EVER count on an automated not to fail unless it's been rigorously tested and even then I'm very wary. If these guys were capping investment at say 10 bil for now with expansion plans in a few months then it would be more reasonable but I still wouldn't believe a word of it. Investments are actually being initially capped at 20b. We simply don't know the market well enough to know if it could actually support more than that volume of trades from an autotrader. Quote: I see so your clan wont show up on any records but you really did control everything... right. If you wish to check you'll be able to find plenty of mentions of us. We played as the Watchful Eye in Shadowbane. We ran the two largest merchant cities on Mourning, Thurin's Forge and Runegate Merchants and Trainers. These two cities were eventually proved to be ours when they were destroyed after we had all but left the game. I can definitely confirm all that. I can also provide confirmation of our presence and economic success in WoW, as vouched for by Kheldin the former leader of the third largest guild in the game. We don't go by Clan ASMS in every game we play, in fact, we haven't gone by that name since we were still in high school. This is sort of just a nostalgic, blast-from-the-past name we agreed on. If you'd really like confirmation on one, or both, of our histories in other MMOs just note what form you'd accept and I'll happily provide it.
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.06 09:28:00 - [24] Can you provide any sort of proof that the market bot you have created exists? There are many who think such things are a myth.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.06 10:25:00 - [25] While the idea is very interesting, you can't get the relevant market data from the API. You'll need a simple 'bot' to retrieve market exports for each item (in the region), but that doesn't give you any indication of how much that item is traded, for that you'll need a bot that OCRs as well (or reads the log files). Everything goes into a central database, and sell buy orders then get distributed to the individual clients. Could be done, if only it where allowed, which I don't believe it is. The API could only retrieve your own/corp sell/buy orders. While I would love it if this was allowed, it would quickly turn into a competition of who has the best bot, and would quickly destroy the market in Eve.
Templer Relleg Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.02.06 10:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Cergorach While the idea is very interesting, you can't get the relevant market data from the API. You'll need a simple 'bot' to retrieve market exports for each item (in the region), but that doesn't give you any indication of how much that item is traded, for that you'll need a bot that OCRs as well (or reads the log files). Everything goes into a central database, and sell buy orders then get distributed to the individual clients. Could be done, if only it where allowed, which I don't believe it is. The API could only retrieve your own/corp sell/buy orders. While I would love it if this was allowed, it would quickly turn into a competition of who has the best bot, and would quickly destroy the market in Eve. You missed the point. It shouldnt be too hard to sniff all packages sent between the client and server, and it shouldnt be hard to read the memory of eve, or use the logging server.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 10:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Templer Relleg You missed the point. It shouldnt be too hard to sniff all packages sent between the client and server, and it shouldnt be hard to read the memory of eve, or use the logging server. Sorry, that was my alt, just so that you dont get confused about who your actually talking to. Stupid alts
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.06 10:55:00 - [28] Originally by: LaVista Vista You missed the point. It shouldnt be too hard to sniff all packages sent between the client and server, and it shouldnt be hard to read the memory of eve, or use the logging server. While it's perfectly possible to 'sniff' the relevant packages, those do need to be requested to be send in the first place. Each market item needs to be requested seperately, the same goes for the market history. You could write a program that does this, but that gets beyond 'iffy'. At the rate the market logd need to be updated, I would expect CCP to notice this, especially if these 'programs' run 23/7. I don't doubt that someone, womewhere is already running such a 'program', but to be actually allowed by CCP... I don't think so! The claims of the OP that they ran similar automated 'schemes' in other MMOs fills me with doubt, because those games also don't allow those 'programs'. Especially WoW would have banned them fairly quickly...
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:21:00 - [29] o/ Ponzi

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:23:00 - [30] Clara, I am locking this thread until such time as you receive a confirmation from a GM regarding the legitimacy of your program and service. Please mail us at [email protected] if you have any queries. Navigator, Community Representative EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang


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