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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
1183
   |
Posted - 2012.02.21 05:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:I dont see anybody crying over the battlecruiser/battleship blobbing issue.
Thats because a BC/BS blob can be countered fairly easy with proper fleet comp. For instance, T3 gangs are a handy counter to alphafleet. The only countercomp to beat the super blob is more of the same. This has been explained so many time only the willfully ignorant can still fail to understand it. Helcion One wrote:Mid-long term, supercaps should be reconfigured to roles other than direct combat to dis-incentivise supercap blobbing and one-dimensional arms races. Ahuh. So when are you not so ignorant gentlemen going to realize the only way to do that is to expand the range of capital ships to allow this? I'm all for bringing in more super cap hulls that would be earmarked as anti-super cap dps only, but that is just compounding the problem by allowing us a wider selection of super cap hulls to counter super caps with. A better solution would be to expand the capital base with t2 items and a wider variety of t1 hulls that could be used effectively in groups of 2-3 to neutralize a single SC/Titan (As opposed to the current mechanics of requiring 100s of sub caps and a gang of caps to take down the supers. Anti-super-cap hulls will still be vulnerable to sub caps as most caps are now since they will be based on their hulls and attributes. So a solution like that will not force alliances to double the amount of sub caps they bring to a fight, preventing more sub cap blobbing. It will encourage more capital blobs that will even out the playing field and counter the super blob. Demanding that sub caps be able to counter the supers without allowing supers to wtfown sub caps is one way pvp, and not very sandboxy or rock paper scissors at all for people who are demanding "proper fleet comp mechanics" Lemme guess, best way to deal with a mouse problem is to turn a bunch of snakes loose in your house? The answer to imbalanced supercaps is not more supercaps.
You guessed wrong.
And poor analogy (runs of fantasizing about ships bigger than titans)
Adding more super caps will just add variety to your problem. I say your problem, because I have no problem adding more supers to Eve. But I digress.
What we need is anti-supercap t2 capitals. So it would be like releasing mutant elephant eating jaguars with laser beams attached to their heads.
Beats the crap out of releasing a swarm of termites (more sub caps) to do a jaguars hob. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core
Fatal Ascension
400
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 06:09:00 -
[62] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:You guessed wrong.
And poor analogy (runs of fantasizing about ships bigger than titans)
Adding more super caps will just add variety to your problem. I say your problem, because I have no problem adding more supers to Eve. But I digress.
What we need is anti-supercap t2 capitals. So it would be like releasing mutant elephant eating jaguars with laser beams attached to their heads.
Beats the crap out of releasing a swarm of termites (more sub caps) to do a jaguars hob.
Wow. Just wow.
You changing than animals doesn't make my point less valid. This isn't wow, there should not be 'end game gear' and I am sorry for those pilots who think that eve works that way, but it doesn't.
One of the things that keeps people from starting this is the belief they will never catch up to vets. This is true, til you start adding more and more capships. Those create a gap that alters the fundamental aspects of eve. One of the selling points is that a noobie in a rifter can change the course of any battle, except that supercaps are completely invulnerable to them. At least a carrier or dread that noob rifter can tackle and hold for his friends to catch up to. A titan or Super will laugh and jump out.
Eve is not supposed to work this way, and you want to make it WORSE?
Why, because vets are entitled to being brokenly OP? Does your ego need that much pampering?
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
161
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Posted - 2012.02.21 07:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:What we need is anti-supercap t2 capitals.
No, what we need is balance across the ship classes as a whole, not a "bring capitals or don't bother showing up" attitude.
Pre-Dominion we more or less had that, because supercaps were generally not suitable for front line direct combat roles, so there was a place in the game for combined operations where subcaps and regular caps to carry out particular important roles alongside each other. Carriers killed BSs, Dreads killed carriers, and BSs killed dreads. The only fly in the ointment was the AoE doomsday marginalising any subcap which didn't have 70,000 ehp. Post Dominion, the idea of combined ops became more marginalised because the solution to all available problems became 'throw all your supercaps at it", leading to a one-dimensional arms race to acquire more of them than your opponents. That's where we are today.
Take away the direct combat abilities of supercaps, get them off the front lines and into supporting roles, and you'll see a much healthier game. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
43
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Posted - 2012.02.21 08:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:I dont see anybody crying over the battlecruiser/battleship blobbing issue.
Do you know what is the Rock-Paper-Scissors game ?
You can fights against bc//bs fleets with nice tactics. Ahac,bc fleet,t3 fleet,SB fleet, other BS fleet etc can kill BS fleets or vica-versa. Every fleet has chances against the other one with good setup and tactics and at least 10 tactics working against them.
But trying to fight against 500 supercaps with subcaps or common capitals. You have no chance against them and the most important things, all other ship is unuseable too. I have no problem with supercaps , thats part of the game, but their numbers is ridiculous high.
So many pilots have over 100m SP just like me. But no matter if the pilots can fly with 250 ships because all useless against supercap blobs if they cant fly with supercap blobs too. Wasting SPs if enemy just blobing with supercaps.
Furthermore no tactics working against supercaps just one, bring more supercaps than your enemies.
We saw what happened with Atlas, they had hundreds and hundreds cap pilots (they used before 400 dreads in fleets), but they could nothing against 500-600 supercap blob and they losing their spaces within 2 weeks.
Over 4000 Supercaps ??? That's really rare ships. LOL
500 titan ? CCP really read their own Eve chronicles from rare titans ?
Need to change this supercap idiotism. Need increasing their value over at least 40-50 billions or more (supercarrier), over 200 billions/titan. The alliance incomes changed dramaticaly in the past years in the game and CCP did not take this into consideration. Thats why their number grew so much.
Need increasing their building times at least 3 months long period, thats slowing down supercaps increasing numbers and give chances to killing them in the CSAA.
Need change rare moon rules. Permanent moons give advantages for big alliances without fights.
And i almost forgot, the other problem is. The supercaps pilots dont want to be lost their ships, because of this they moving to the biggest alliances where is the most supercaps are. Somehow need to change their numbers in a fleet. |
Gevlin
EXPCS Corp
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
104
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Posted - 2012.02.21 11:00:00 -
[65] - Quote
based off of first reply
newer alliance or new players are put at a disadvantage and it becomes a war of the haves and the have nots.
I would rather be please by limiting the number of ships allowed in a system.
Titian not produce an Anti Titan attraction field. Prevents more than 1 titan from being on the field at any one time, or on the same grid or they may both blow up.
This way 1 side as an advantage and but not an overwhelming advantage as 30 titans.
Limiting Super carriers to 3 solar system.
But I like the idea of a Capital tackling ships or a tackling module for super caps.
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace.
In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core
Fatal Ascension
400
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 11:08:00 -
[66] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:
I would rather be please by limiting the number of ships allowed in a system.
If this means what I think it means(not entirely sure, looks like a bad machine translation) then putting a hard cap on pilots in system is a terrible idea. You do that, and we will put that many pilots in the system, and in all the neighboring systems, any time we want to take anything.
You don't seem to understand the numbers that the large coalitions can field.
You have to provide a reason not to do that, and hard caps(ay kind of hard limit, actually) are just begging to be abused.
Edit: You are in the CFC, were you not there when we launched our branch invasion, and had over 2000 people in fleets?
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2012.02.21 15:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Lemme guess, best way to deal with a mouse problem is to turn a bunch of snakes loose in your house?
The answer to imbalanced supercaps is not more supercaps.
The traditional solution is to let cats loose in your house.
MOAR supercaps, and more caps that are bonused to deal with supercaps. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
452
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Posted - 2012.02.21 17:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
delete all super caps from game
problem solved. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
452
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 17:01:00 -
[69] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:I dont see anybody crying over the battlecruiser/battleship blobbing issue.
GUYS THEY BROUGHT A BIGGER FLEET THAN US, DAMN BLOBBERS |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
1089
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 21:02:00 -
[70] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:delete all super caps from game
problem solved.
At this point I would almost entirely agree with this.
EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
205
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Posted - 2012.02.21 23:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:.... stuff ....
Expanding the number of capitals in the game isn't inherently a bad idea, like many are suggesting. However, it's not a magical solution like you're suggesting. EvE works well because it maintains a Rochambeau atmosphere. When you ship up to a bigger ship, you gain many advantages, but you also gain many disadvantages. This forced fleets to operate in diverse fleets.
BC fleets die to BS fleets which die to cruiser fleets which die to BC fleets...
Subcap fleets die to carriers which die to dreads which die to subcap fleets.
With the change to supercaps in dominion, dreads were replaced with supercaps, hence:
Capitals die to supercaps which SHOULD die to subcaps which die to capitals.
However, Supercaps just don't have that vulnerability... They effectively kill both capitals and subcapitals, making them only vulnerable to bigger supercaps... Your suggestion of adding a capital ship to neutralize supercaps seems incredibly uninformed, as supercapitals are designed to obliterate capitals, a role that they are exceptionally good at.
The problem with supercaps is compounded by their huge EHP and enormous number of utility highs on Supercarriers. Essentially, they scale extremely well, such that they are impossible to alpha and their turtle tank becomes extremely overwhelming when in numbers.
There are two big problems with supercaps at the moment:
1.) The turret formula doesn't scale well to the capital level. Essentially, there is no damage modifier when shooting a small target with really big guns, so glancing blows from a titan alpha smaller ships.
2.) Capital RR scales endlessly. With their base EHP alpha'ing capitals is unrealistic without DD's, and their officer-level resists allow them to turtle tank large fleets. Removing the RR bonus on Supercarriers would force them to hurdle, making them much more vulnerable to separation from the fleet.
I think introducing a new capital ship weapon mechanics (and probably skills too) so that ALL capital weapons don't work well against moving sub-BS targets is in order. This would include fighters, so they don't hit BC's and smaller very well. I would change the role of a sieged dread to actually be an anti-BS platform when sieged, but pisspoor against subcaps otherwise. Siege dreads should still have poor and very poor performance against BC's and cruisers, respectively. This would leave carriers with its wide array of drones as an ideal anti-subcap platform, and the dread a decent anti-BS/poor-man structure shooting platform. Is this ideal? I don't know, but I'll tell you what I do know:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:I want a goddamn capital-supercap-subcap Rochambeau Game!!!
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Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2140
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 00:04:00 -
[72] - Quote
a long time ago dreads used to kill supercapitals
lol, dominion
yeah no i'm not actually running for csm7
got you lol!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
205
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 00:28:00 -
[73] - Quote
Andski wrote:a long time ago dreads used to kill supercapitals
lol, dominion
With AoE DD's, you didn't need 50 Titans to wipe out a subcap fleet. And before the dominion supercap changes, 400 dreads was considered a signficant military assets, as opposed to the signficant liablity they have become.
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core
Fatal Ascension
403
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 09:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
stagz wrote:once apon a time, hardly anyone had this thing called a battleship.
it was mighty and everyone wanted one.
catch my drift?
allow supercarriers the ability to carry 20 bombers and 20 fighters.
you nerfed their HP and removed sub-cap drone useage.
TO MUCH!
its just ridiculous that "super-carrier" cannot even carry a full load of drones.
vote 1 drone bay expansion.
Giving supers more fighter bay wouldn't be bad, I don't think, as long as they don't get normal drones back.
I do think that fighters should have a 'skirmish' setting where they engage other fighters and fighter bombers without direct commands from the pilot. After all, they are not drones, they supposedly have a person inside flying them.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 09:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
stagz wrote:once apon a time, hardly anyone had this thing called a battleship.
it was mighty and everyone wanted one.
catch my drift?
allow supercarriers the ability to carry 20 bombers and 20 fighters.
you nerfed their HP and removed sub-cap drone useage.
TO MUCH!
its just ridiculous that "super-carrier" cannot even carry a full load of drones.
vote 1 drone bay expansion.
This is a supercaps alliance answer.
No way. Remove their EW immunity. Increase their value to atleast 50 billion.
Siege for fighter bombers etc,etc,etc. Keep nerf them or the supercapital blobs will ruin the whole game to crap. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core
Fatal Ascension
403
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 09:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:stagz wrote:once apon a time, hardly anyone had this thing called a battleship.
it was mighty and everyone wanted one.
catch my drift?
allow supercarriers the ability to carry 20 bombers and 20 fighters.
you nerfed their HP and removed sub-cap drone useage.
TO MUCH!
its just ridiculous that "super-carrier" cannot even carry a full load of drones.
vote 1 drone bay expansion. This is a supercaps alliance answer. No way. Remove their EW immunity. Increase their value to atleast 50 billion. Siege for fighter bombers etc,etc,etc. Keep nerf them or the supercapital blobs will ruin the whole game to crap.
Super carriers were nerfed effectively enough that they no longer pose a significant threat to a subcap fleet. Titans are the problem at this point, since with a group of then one of them almost always has you at 0 traversal, and thats all they need to alpha most subcaps(or at least sub battleships, not sure about BS themselves).
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
Pandorum Invictus
193
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
Just delete the damn things, and give back the SP.
They were a mistake since day one |
Tekashi Kovacs
Golfclap Inc
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:22:00 -
[78] - Quote
Joshua Aivoras wrote:Just delete the damn things, and give back the SP.
They were a mistake since day one
This.
and bring back BS < carrier < dread < BS balance. The simplier the better. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
815
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:59:00 -
[79] - Quote
mxzf wrote:What is the issue that needs to be fixed? How would this fix the issue? And why is this the best possible solution?
The issue comes from several points, Titans and Super caps are mostly in null sec right, so lets see:
Who can afford those and what's their income resource
Who builds those, how many per month and how do they get the materials needed to build those
How are those used and what players complain about
Well I guess we have some questions that clearly need data for serious answers, but everyone living in null for enough time can give some answer.
Now CCP if there's something they should clearly do is not to take thse away from the game but increase by 500% required materials for start then make sort those titans/dreadnaughts can't hit a single battleship MWD's if he's not in his straight line or static. It's ridiculous how those capital ships can one shot cruisers/BC's/BS in full movement.
Just go to Eve-kill and look at the number of Titans/dreads involved in BC/Cruiser kills by applying some dps or the number of those where Titans/dreads are the only dps.
If you're not willing to increase the materials needed to build those, then get rid of their stupid immunity, get rid of the possibility for those to get remote links.
Why a simple T1 frigate should be able to pin T3's and T2 battleships that should be the most electronics sophisticated ships and can't pin a giant dildo that can even one shot them with enough remote bonus?
Super caps, Titans shouldn't be able to hit one battle ship in movement, they should be defenceless to Battleships as Battleships are to Assault frigs, you can get them but it's a very tricky business.
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