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Logistics are imbalanced

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Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:12:00 - [1] Amarr and Caldari Logistics are superiour to Gallente and Matar ones. Example Oneiros: high: 4x large solace remote rep med: prototype ECCM magnetometric sensor cluster 4x cap recharger II lows: 800mm rolled tungsten armor explo. hardener II EANM II beta reactor control CAP power relay Guardian: highs: 5x large solace remote rep 1x medium solace remote rep meds: 2x cap recharger II lows: 800mm rolled tungsten 2x EANM II 2x beta reactor control cap power relay both ships use 2 remote repair augmentor I rigs oneiros repairs: 1536/5sec + 240/5sec (5med armor rep drones t1) = 1776/5sec @ 71 km distance guardian repairs: 2112/5sec + 120/5sec (5 small armor rep drones t1) = 2232/5sec @ 71 km distance caldari & matar are similar, with matar beeing worse then the caldari logistic cruiser. before the logistics boost, the oneiros and scimitar compensated their lack in repair / shield boost amount through better range but now all 4 logistics have the same range... Solution: nerf repair range of guardian and basilisk OR boost repair amount of oneiros & scimitar. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:27:00 - [2] you may be right... there are some mistakes... guardian setup needs more skills to be cap stable than the oneiros setup... but with all skills V they are both cap stable. if leaving drones out of comparision we get: Guardian: 1920/5sec @71km + 190/5sec @51 km Oneiros: 1536/5sec @71 km doesnt change the fact that oneiros is still worse... the only advantage i can see is, that oneiros can fit an ECCM... but tbh does this justify 37% less repair amount? i think ccp just forgot to apply the right range bonus for basilisk and guardian and gave 150% to range to every logistics. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:45:00 - [3] you are right... didnt think of the energy transfers. but who fits them anyway? i never saw a logistics fitting energy transfer arrays. i once bought a corpum x-type med energy transfer array for 10m (just for collecting^^) snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:57:00 - [4] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 11/02/2008 22:05:38 learned something new today ^^ i still think the basilisk and guardian are superiour to the other logistics. if you train logistics to V you dont need the energy transfer arrays. you will be cap stable with much less cap rechargers and cap power relays than with logistics at IV. i'am going for amarr cruiser V anyway so i could care less... but still. edit followed your advice and tried guardian with med energy transfer array instead of med remote armor repairer: incase there are 2 guardians the med energy transfer array would add +15 cap/s to both ships each other. this means a guardian needs only ONE cap recharger II to be capstable and could use all 5 lowslots for tanking... while still repairing 1920 / 5sec this is even more imbalanced 2 oneiros doing this would repair 1152 and can use insane amounts of tracking links which are stacking nerfed... wohooo (logistcs V required for this example) snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.13 11:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Siltan Originally by: Frances Ducoir Amarr and Caldari Logistics are superiour to Gallente and Matar ones. Example Solution: nerf repair range of guardian and basilisk OR boost repair amount of oneiros & scimitar. Niether of these would work, boosting the repair amount would make a less skilled pilot better off in a 4 hi slot ship, as they would need les cap recharge to keep up the same / better repping. Range nerfing wouldnt have a significant effect in most situations as you usually only need around 20-30km range anyway. The only real way to balance it would be to take a mid slot + low slot (or 2 low slots) and shift them to the high slots. And probably change all the ship bonuses to be the same as well, energy transfers for all. The extra mid slots have other purposes on the logistics, such as mounting remote ECCM, they are pretty much different ships for diffrent situations and shine in each of thier own ways, its just a shame they have the racial requirement of cruiser level 5 for each of em. If im on my own I prefer the galantee ship, if theres 2 logistics I prefer the guardian. i'am against the unification of all ships, every ship should have a certain niche. i could imagine something like make gallente logistic the one which has the highest repair, but lowest range through drones. (disadvanteges would be you cant switch your target fast). amarr and caldari should stay like they are. i cant judge the minmatar logistics atm, it seems to be good for offensive gangs. maybe it could use another slot to compare with other logistics. as it stands now, guardian and basilisk are used for spider repairing, while the other logistics are next to useless. as said before, tracking links are barely used... it just doesnt pay off fitting those. the odd thing is, that even with energy transfers fitted (and thus higher cap recharge when spider reping), the guardian and basilisk still can repair more than oneiros and the matar logistic. this seems out of balance. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.13 19:59:00 - [6] that are some nice ideas siltan snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 14/02/2008 01:20:21 Originally by: Goumindong ... i would like to see the numbers you base your asumptions on. at logistics V 2 guardians are supperior in every way over 2 oneiros, even in a nano gang because they can "generate cap" for each other and thus do not need to fill their medslot and lows with cap modules. 1 cap power relay is enough. tracking links are stacking nerfed to hell and back, they are, in comparision to the energy transfer a very weak bonus. so we are at the point that oneiros repairs less and has a less useful bonus to tracking links. btw last time i counted oneiros and guardians slots, they both had 13. difference is, that oneiros has far more meds, what makes oneiros more cap stable if you have logistics IV only. but because of the huge gap between logistics IV and V there is a large imbalance at the skill level V... you dont need the slots of the oneiros anymore to make the ship cap stable. it doesnt matter how you spin it, guardian comes out as the winner. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 14/02/2008 20:36:08 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Frances Ducoir you dont need the slots of the oneiros anymore to make the ship cap stable If you dont need the slots to make it more cap stable you get to do other things, like make it cap stable while boosting and perma-running an MWD. Or tanking it. as said above, 2 guardians with only 1 med energy transfer array fitted can sustain enough cap to use ALL but one of their med/lowslots for other mods or tank too at skill lvl V. the amount which guardian and basilisk are able to repair more for their imo very small to none drawbacks are out of balance. Originally by: Goumindong Oneiroses and Scimitars are fine. They work better when there are no other logistics around since they just plain have more slots with which to boost cap so they can keep repairing. Guardians and Basilisks do not. logistics are gangships, most time you will fit an 800mm plate on your logistic ship and resistances and no active repairers. this fact makes you NEED another logistics ship in the gang, for the case logistic ship #1 is beeing attacked. if you take a single logistics to battle, you will loose it very fast, if you take two, they can keep themselves alive. thatswhy i always would bring them in doublepacks or tripplepacks to the battlefield but never alone - they are gang ships. the solo part may work for the scimitar, but using an oneiros solo without a second one or a guardian is high risk. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:37:00 - [9] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/02/2008 18:45:02 Originally by: Goumindong With a scimitar and logistics 5, you can perma run 3 large shield reps, a mwd, sensor booster, ECCM while nanoing the ship fast enough to avoid most damage. You can do the same on an Oneiros, but go a bit slower. You cant on a guardian or basilisk. You must circle-tank the guardian or basilisk to be valuable and you do not for a Scimitar or Oneiros. The basilisk cannot tank well and use ECCM/Sensor boosters making their circle vulnerable to high DPS and neuts. The guardian cannot use either one of ECCM or sensor boosters. Making them vulnerable to Ewar and neuts They all have their advantages and disadvantages, but yes, if you only fly in situations where the disadvantages are minimized and the advantages extended then you wont have a problem. this is so wrong. lets do the numbers for nanoed oneiros and guardian oneiros 4x large solace y-t8 mwd, prototype ECCM, 3x cap recharger II 2x overdive II, 2x nanofiber II remote repair aug 2x 2870 mps, 39 sensor str. effective hp 10k, not cap stable with mwd and all reppers on (1 min 14s), cap stable with 2 reppers and mwd on... but if you would fit tracking links this gets even worse guardian 5 large solace 1 large energy transfer array II y-t8 mwd, prototype ECCM radar 3x overdrive II, 2x nanofiber II rigs: ACR I, remote rep aug I 3500 mps, 37 sensor str., 10,5k effective hp in case there are 2 guardians, they can with large energy transfer keep there mwd & all 5 reppers running permantly if they are within 83 km of each other. in case there are 2 oneiros they can do nothing of the above and they still repair less. guardians are better in every way... the only use of oneiros is tracking links for mission runners & snipers... yay... gallente got the bonus here. i know which i would choose from these both. lets see, gallente command ship bonus = crap, gallente logistics = worse than all other logistics, gallente recons (damper) = crap, gallente close range dps is now obsolete too because everybody and his mother can fill this role with the new raven now in a better way, drones are nerfed to hell and back, ppl whine about ecm drones - will be nerfed soon too... whats left? snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:39:00 - [10] Originally by: PCaBoo Another EFT Warrior? The ships are fine. Why does everyone cry about how every ship isn't identical?! if you would have bothered to read the whole thread you would have stumbled upon my statement, that i dont want all ships to be the same... (but what can you exspect from a smash^^) snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch

Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:12:00 - [11] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/02/2008 20:13:37 Originally by: Goumindong Protip: Large Cap battery which fit very well on our nanoed oneiros with 4 large solace + mwd... would have to drop another remote rep... well... this makes the oneiros even more crap Originally by: Goumindong Another Protip: The Oneiros doesn't need a second Oneiros to fly with it in order to be effective yes because they dont gain anything from each other... a guardian is solo still better than any oneiros at logistics V... it repairs more and can do all the same like the oneiros. Originally by: Goumindong A third Protip: Remote Repair Augs are not as valuable as CCC's/SMC's are not as valuable as CPR's. Trade the nano's for CPRs and the Repair Augs for polycarbons. done for the oneiros. we get: 3300 mps, while still not beeing able to let all 4 repairs and mwd run permanently (but at least 3 - wohoo ^^). fit some tracking links and your oneiros will fail misserably at running repairers and mwd. some points for you: logistics can: a) remote repair/shield boost b) transfer energy remotely c) use tracking links now which bonus is the one which is the main purpose of those ships? seems like a)... fine so lets continue. which of the 3 bonus above is useful for remote repairing: energy transfer or tracking links? you will figure out which one, i'am sure. this leaves us with 2 ships which do a better job then the other 2. while the scimitar still fills a niche in offensive nano gangs, the oneiros fails at everything. the oneiros cant do anything which the other logistics couldnt do better. another problem is the huge gap between logistics skill lvl IV and V. while the oneiros is a bit more cap stable (because it just can use 4 repairers) at logistics IV, the guardian is superiour in every way at logistics V. if you calculate in the use of energy transfer arrays and the use of multiple guardians / oneiros simultanely its getting even worse for the oneiros. Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Frances Ducoir in case there are 2 guardians, they can with large energy transfer keep there mwd & all 5 reppers running permantly if they are within 83 km of each other. No, they cannot. See if you can figure out why. care to elaborate? the fitting given above would need 66 cap/s and generate 14 cap/s. a large energy transfer array will give each guardian 57 cap/s which makes them easily cope the 66 cap/s needs. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2008 22:46:26 Originally by: Frances Ducoir yes because they dont gain anything from each other... a guardian is solo still better than any oneiros at logistics V... it repairs more and can do all the same like the oneiros. No, it cannot. It has the same cap regen profile and is missing two med/low slots. None of them can use more than 4 LRARs without friendly boosting[Oneiros due to fitting, Guardian due to cap] while fitting any kind of defense. But the Oneiros can keep itself alive better while boosting friendlies. Quote: done for the oneiros. we get: 3300 mps, while still not beeing able to let all 4 repairs and mwd run permanently (but at least 3 - wohoo ^^). fit some tracking links and your oneiros will fail misserably at running repairers and mwd. What in the world do tracking links have to do with remote repairing? The Oneiros is better when alone because the two extra med/low slots allow the ship to produce a better repair job while still defending itself from both DPS and electronic warfare when alone. The Guardian is better with another because the extra high slots and bonus allow it to circle-jerk cap and armor, letting it fit other modules in its med/low slots. Quote: care to elaborate? the fitting given above would need 66 cap/s and generate 14 cap/s. a large energy transfer array will give each guardian 57 cap/s which makes them easily cope the 66 cap/s needs. If you don't know why it isn't possible I am not going to help you on this one until you get into said ship and try it out. But ill give you a hint. EFT will show you why you cannot do what you claimed. dude you are talking big sh.. guardian can very well keep more than 4 repairers running without external cap injection. at logistics V it will be able to run 5 large solace and 1 med solace and has 4 spare lowslots for tank. how do you come up with your strange asumptions? what do tracking links have to do with this? a lot.2 guardians gain a lot from their secondary bonus (energy transfer), while 2 oneiros dont gain anything at all from its secondary bonus (tracking links). this makes the guardian superiour in the primary role as remote repairer. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:41:00 - [13] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 16/02/2008 04:41:28 Originally by: MotherMoon someone isn't a logistics pilot. thank you for your worthful input... snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:08:00 - [14] i dont know about what we are arguing here, these 2 ships are so much imbalanced, it should be obvious for everybody. fit some remote repair augmentors, set all skills to V and try again ^^ you simply neglect the fact that logistics V is NEEDED for a logistics pilot to use his ship really effectivly. at logistics V the guardian is superiour in every way: examples: guardian + oneiros both fitted for solo use and max repair. guardian repairs more, has a bit less hp, clear winner guardian fitted for gang use with one other guardian note: the large energy transfer array II generates + 56,5 cap for both guardians, thatswhy they are capstable if they are within range of each other (83km). guardian in this configuration can still repair more than oneiros and has a way better tank and one spare midslot (sensor booster fitted here). guardian = winner. guardian and oneiros nanoed... both fitted as the only logistic ship in the gang as you can see guardian can only run 4 large repairers capstable, has a bit (300mps) less speed but 2 spare highslots. both ships can be nanoed equally good, although this doesnt make much sense because most offensive nano gangs are shield tanks and will use the scimitar^^ oneiros and guardian nanoed, guardian in team with another one the large enery transfer array creates enough cap for the guardians to fit this spectacular setup. i think i dont need to say anything more to this ^^ all in all we have a clear winner: the guardian is solo & nanoed as good as the oneiros, in teams way better. it is fitted for max rep and fitted for team rep better. the oneiros has no single niche at which it does something better than the other logistics. another useless ship. (btw eos is imbalanced because it has a useless bonus to ew ganglinks, which noone uses, all other gang links are way better and benefit the gang boosting command ships themselves). snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:31:00 - [15] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 17/02/2008 02:32:06 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2008 02:19:29 Notice how all of your assumptions rely on having two logistics and one of them being a guardian? 2 examples for solo use, 2 for gang use Originally by: Goumindong And the one that doesnt require two guardians has the Oneiros as better than the Guardian... the guardian is able to repair way more capstable than the oneiros. i wouldnt say that the oneiros is better then ^^ Originally by: Goumindong edit: Solo use has a propulsion module, ECCM, and sensor booster. The guardian does not have this. The Oneiros can. Without the ECCM and sensor booster its just waiting to be made irrelevent with some ewar. you could only fit ABs, what do you want with an ab? if an mwding ship closes in, you are in problems with & without ab. the oneiros for solo use couldnt even fit a 10mn ab because of powergrid issues, you would have to drop another large solace for a med solace. you were able to see that all setups had ECCM fitted? you can add the sensor booster to all setups by droping one cap recharger II and remove a lowslot (tank) module for a CPR II. this would weaken the tanks of both ships and applies to both ships equaly. exception: nano setups. but thats irrelavant because RSD arent usefull anymore except for fleet fights. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.08 11:48:00 - [16] alliance tournament: Logistics Cruisers fielded: 87 Total. Scimitar:1 Guardian: 41 Onieros: 7 Basilisk: 38 snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch

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