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Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:26:00 - [1] Not intending to start any kind of debate here, but I found this video on youtube that is very interesting to me (both as someone interested in AI and a software engineer). Using genetic algorithms, the evolution of a clock from several basic parts (spring, hand, gear) is simulated. You can find it here: Video ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Shalia Ripper Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:37:00 - [2] That's awesome. I hate straw man arguments and this definitely blows the watch one out of the water.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:40:00 - [3] Originally by: Shalia Ripper That's awesome. I hate straw man arguments and this definitely blows the watch one out of the water. I've been wanting to design a similar program for quite some time actually. I had an idea to "evolve" several walking creatures that used a very simple (simulated) system of air pressure and air bladders for movement - very similar to the "creatures" in this video. But I could never settle on a defined set of components and rules for connecting said components. I really want to try it out now... ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Andrest Disch Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:43:00 - [4] He coulda made the writing abit slower, I struggled to read most of it in time. =s
Blind Man1 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:46:00 - [5] good for a laugh I guess..
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Blind Man1 good for a laugh I guess.. Stop trolling. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:52:00 - [7] woah Originally by: Avaricia look a goon lol
Kayamas	Posted - 2008.02.11 22:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Blind Man1 good for a laugh I guess.. And in his(?)infinite wisdom God created Blind Man1
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.11 22:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Kayamas Originally by: Blind Man1 good for a laugh I guess.. And in his(?)infinite wisdom God created Blind Man1 And then thus did Blind Man1 steal the forum signature of the real blind man. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.11 22:16:00 - [10] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 11/02/2008 22:16:22 Now since we all love to see creationists get totally owned (And Blind man1 )... I give you Kent Hovind vs Molecular Geneticist Originally by: Avaricia look a goon lol
Daelorn State War Academy	Posted - 2008.02.11 22:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Andrest Disch He coulda made the writing abit slower, I struggled to read most of it in time. =s There IS a pause button you know...
The Crushah Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.02.11 22:58:00 - [12] Genetic Algorithms are truly awesome. They have been used to evolve improved analog electronic circuits as well. you can read about some of the work here: http://www.genetic-programming.org/
Havok Dryke	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:05:00 - [13] /me wants a downloadable version... Spore: Clock Edition Very nice video, well thought out and well programmed.
Joseph 9 Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:06:00 - [14] Old tbh, I think even for this forum. But deeply deeply cool. I love the fact that 4 armed clocks die out when they emerge.
MalVortex	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:43:00 - [15] Really aw some Tarminic. I thought "oh crap, its a religious thread on EVE-O", then I saw you posted it, and knew it would be worth clicking
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.12 02:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Tarminic I've been wanting to design a similar program for quite some time actually. I had an idea to "evolve" several walking creatures that used a very simple (simulated) system of air pressure and air bladders for movement - very similar to the "creatures" in this video. But I could never settle on a defined set of components and rules for connecting said components. I really want to try it out now... Check this video out. Seems closer to what you were after.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.12 02:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Havok Dryke /me wants a downloadable version... Spore: Clock Edition Very nice video, well thought out and well programmed. He has a link to his program in the writeup. This is it copied here: http://www.mediafire.com/?1umdtnwayyp
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.12 04:18:00 - [18] Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 12/02/2008 04:20:00 There are many ways of disproving evolution, and very few silly one that support it, I in the other hand support one thing. If in doupt, burn it out. Untill there is no serious proof about evolution, without any ommited parts as there is now, than i will to believe in it, and even teach it. Until than, there is plenty of real knowledge in the world to learn.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.12 05:07:00 - [19] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/02/2008 05:07:31 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 12/02/2008 04:20:00 There are many ways of disproving evolution, and very few silly one that support it, I in the other hand support one thing. If in doupt, burn it out. Untill there is no serious proof about evolution, without any ommited parts as there is now, than i will to believe in it, and even teach it. Until than, there is plenty of real knowledge in the world to learn. By that thinking the theory of gravity is still incomplete. That does not mean jumping off a building is a good idea. You will fall due to gravity. If you actually bothered to read up on it you would find that the theory of evolution is supported by loads of evidence. Very compelling evidence including genetic analysis these days. The gaps in the theory are more refinements than game breaking holes. Like having a car that is missing a radio knob and a window. You still know it is a car even if there are a few pieces missing.
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.12 11:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/02/2008 05:07:31 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 12/02/2008 04:20:00 There are many ways of disproving evolution, and very few silly one that support it, I in the other hand support one thing. If in doupt, burn it out. Untill there is no serious proof about evolution, without any ommited parts as there is now, than i will to believe in it, and even teach it. Until than, there is plenty of real knowledge in the world to learn. By that thinking the theory of gravity is still incomplete. That does not mean jumping off a building is a good idea. You will fall due to gravity. If you actually bothered to read up on it you would find that the theory of evolution is supported by loads of evidence. Very compelling evidence including genetic analysis these days. The gaps in the theory are more refinements than game breaking holes. Like having a car that is missing a radio knob and a window. You still know it is a car even if there are a few pieces missing. Ok, when i say evolution, I am going way efore any life form, i am sure something happened abck there that created earth and all, but the way they say it appened is just a theory, something did happen to bring us and other animals to this state, but there is not enogh proof for that transformation. Gravity does exist, cause i feel it you num nut. There is a 100 reasons that counter many aspects of it, so i just don't think its important to believe it it at all. I just believe that we are not sure a tall. maybe in a 100 years a time machine goes bac k and bring solid proof.
Darwinia Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.12 13:07:00 - [21] Evolution is not something that has happened way back in the past and can't today be observed anymore. It just takes a long time for complex organisms (milions of years vs. the measly hundreds we are observing and have reliable records for), but it's much faster for microscopic organisms. Where do you think all those antibiotic resistant bacteria are coming from? EVOLUTION ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.12 13:10:00 - [22] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/02/2008 13:10:15 Originally by: Roxanna Kell ...but the way they say it appened is just a theory, something did happen to bring us and other animals to this state, but there is not enogh proof for that transformation. Gravity does exist, cause i feel it you num nut. There is a 100 reasons that counter many aspects of it, so i just don't think its important to believe it it at all. I just believe that we are not sure a tall. maybe in a 100 years a time machine goes bac k and bring solid proof. As it happens there is positively loads of data supporting evolution and practically none debunking it. The intelligent design folks will spout off numerous reasons why it is wrong but those challenges to evolution have all been answered in a clear fashion. In fact there was a court case in the United States a few years ago where the intelligent design folk went head-to-head with evolution folk. Both sides trotted out powerful attorneys and made their case before a conservative judge appointed by the Bush administration (so not some liberal judge predisposed against ID). The ID arguments were answered so clearly and decisively that the judge's ruling against ID in schools was unequivocal and unusually strongly worded coming from a judge: Quote: Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the BoardÆs decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. ~Judge John E. Jones III Read for yourself here or watch a PBS documentary on it here. In the documentary you will see the very best arguments against evolution that the ID side can muster delivered by people with many credentials to their name (or at least actor portrayals of those people). You will see the responses to each of their points which conclusively debunk the ID notions. Or remain uneducated and believe what you will. And yes, gravity exists. But it is still a theory because we cannot say exactly what gravity is. No one has seen a graviton and no one can unite the two most successful theories in history (quantum mechanics and relativity) because of issues stemming from gravity. In fact quantum mechanics is the most verified theory in history (down to some crazy number of decimal places) yet it remains a theory. Evolution is the same way...there are some gaps and some refinements to be made but by and large the concept is well established and confirmed over and over and over again.
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h stuff I read books upon books aboutevolution, the ones that support and the ones that counter it, I don't say that evolution did happen, i say it is likely. I don't say evolution did not happen, as i have no decisive proof, Its like saying to me which religion is the true one, islam or christianity. Each have doupts, so if there is a single doupt in a theory, than i will not say that i back it up. I am aware of the major scientific facts, thats about as much agreement you will get from me. My philosophy is close to that of rene descartes.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Roxanna Kell If in doupt, burn it out. Please give me your ID and or religious texts so as I may incinerate them. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.12 14:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Roxanna Kell If in doupt, burn it out. Please give me your ID and or religious texts so as I may incinerate them. none,. There is too much science out there that is far more relivent. If i believed all aspects of evolution, because i do believe in some, Id still wouldn't use it for anything in perticular other than general knowledge, others might though.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Roxanna Kell Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Roxanna Kell If in doupt, burn it out. Please give me your ID and or religious texts so as I may incinerate them. none,. There is too much science out there that is far more relivent. The speed of evolution is dependant upon the number of generations it cycles through. Take antibiotics for instance, if bacteria evolves faster than human ingenuity then we have an epidemic. Look at the Spanish Flu of the early 20th century, contrast to the possible consequences of us losing control and Bird flu infecting the population. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Roxanna Kell Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Roxanna Kell If in doupt, burn it out. Please give me your ID and or religious texts so as I may incinerate them. none,. There is too much science out there that is far more relivent. The speed of evolution is dependant upon the number of generations it cycles through. Take antibiotics for instance, if bacteria evolves faster than human ingenuity then we have an epidemic. Look at the Spanish Flu of the early 20th century, contrast to the possible consequences of us losing control and Bird flu infecting the population. Tahts fine, but the annoying part of evolution that annoys me, is darwin's mostly that we were apes. if apes evolved how come they are still around, and why isn't it devolution, maybe apes were man once. Also the one about wales used to walk, they said that jsut ebcause a whale has 2 tiny leg looking bones at the back, which are used for holding the womb when the whale female is pregnant. Alos the big bang, thats more of a philosophical question in my book. No one was there, so we have no clue, the way planets spin opposite directions alone puts that theory to shame. I don't think people that believe in all of that stupid, its their choice to believe in almost anything, i choose to be very careful in what i believe in. just a life style philosophy.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Roxanna Kell Stuff I point you to this article about Australopithecus. Around that time the species split, those that stayed in the trees eating berries that became modern Chimps (the ape split was further back). The most modern split in the DNA I beleive is the relativly recent races that we have today. If we were to have the current races isolated they would change drasticly to the enviroments, lower skin pigmintaion for a much lower climate for example. The point is that at the time it was a small divergence that exagerated over millions of years. Those Chimps didnt exist millions of years ago and neither did we. For the whale, take the flatfish for example. At some point in it's past it started moving using Horizontal oscilation as opposed to the normal Vertical. It then had one eye which was pointed into the ground, which migrated to the top of the skull, giving the deformed skull of the fish. Watch this and jump to 3:30 for the lecture lasting around 2 min. Thats just general knowlege on my part, bioligists here feel free to correct me. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:43:00 - [29] Edited by: Tarminic on 12/02/2008 15:43:12 Originally by: Roxanna Kell Tahts fine, but the annoying part of evolution that annoys me, is darwin's mostly that we were apes. if apes evolved how come they are still around, and why isn't it devolution, maybe apes were man once. Apes are still around because evolution happens to entire populations, not individuals. What most likely happened was that one group of apes moved to a different environment (or their current environment changed). Over time that group of apes adapted and changed to better survive in their environment, but the original group they broke off from remained unchanged (since they had no reason to adapt - they still lived in their old environment). As for de-evolution, it's not terribly likely (though not impossible). After all, if creatures were able to survive better by being more intelligent, why would the overall population get dumber over time? Now if that same population were faced with an environment where physical strength or endurance was much more important than intelligence, that could happen. But that's not really de-evolution as the animal is still changing to better suit its environment. Quote: Also the one about wales used to walk, they said that jsut ebcause a whale has 2 tiny leg looking bones at the back, which are used for holding the womb when the whale female is pregnant. I don't know enough about whale biology yo speak either way on this. However, there are many other cases of vestigal organs or muscles. Snakes still have small leg bones from their ancestors (who did have legs). Even some humans are born with a vestigial tail. Quote: Alos the big bang, thats more of a philosophical question in my book. No one was there, so we have no clue, the way planets spin opposite directions alone puts that theory to shame. Be sure to distinguish the three theories of Evolution (how creatures change over time), Biogenesis (how life first came to be on Earth), and the Big Bang Theory (how the universe began). There's different theories, and one doesn't have to support the other. Obviously the theory of Evolution is dependant on there being some kind of life in the first place, but does not (and does not need to) address how it formed in the first place. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3 (NEW VERSION!)
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.12 15:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Roxanna Kell Tahts fine, but the annoying part of evolution that annoys me, is darwin's mostly that we were apes. if apes evolved how come they are still around, and why isn't it devolution, maybe apes were man once. Also the one about wales used to walk, they said that jsut ebcause a whale has 2 tiny leg looking bones at the back, which are used for holding the womb when the whale female is pregnant. Humans did not evolve from apes (or vice versa). We evolved from a common ancestor. As such there is no need for "devolution". Ignoring obvious morphological similarities you do not find it the least bit interesting that we share 95% or more of our genetic code with chimps? As for the whale question this is well established with ample evidence (including transitional fossils). Rather than argue it here I will point you to this site which spells it out quite well.

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