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Jasmine Tea
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have a question regarding decryptor use.
I currently invent T2 modules and ships, For Modules I use maximum run BPC and then I get a 10 run t2 BPC from a successfuly invention job. For ships I use single run BPCs. both these BPs seems to have a ME and PE of -4 regardless of the quality of the T1 BP used for the invention job
I was looking at Decrpytors and the cheapest one offers
Probability Multiplier of x0.6 Max Run Modifier of +9 ME Modifier of -2 PE Modifier of +1
So this is where my question lies If I used this decrypter on a ship invention run, my probability of a successful invention would drop but instead of a single run BP of ME -4 and PE -4 I would get a 10 run BP with a ME of -6 and PE or -1
If that was the case I could see why I would want to use one when inventing ships as my probability would drop by almost half but I would end up with a BP with far more runs which would offset the money lost due to more failures.
I am sure it isnt that easy. It never is |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
229
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
far more runs, but far higher material costs.
At Jita prices, a Sabre would be 5 mil more expensive to make at ME -6 than ME -4
Totally destroys the profit margin.
I think, as well, you'd need to throw in a max run bpc, rather than a single run bpc. but don't quote me on that. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
627
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Posted - 2012.02.15 19:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
in order to make a +run decrypter work, you need to use max-run BPC in the invention tries. otherwise, you get the base number (IIRC, I don't bother inventing much ... and the stuff I do, I don't bother with decrypters) |
Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
48
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Posted - 2012.02.15 22:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
You have to be careful with decryptors. One issue is that you would have to run invention jobs on max run bpc's even for ships when the decryptor modifies runs. Those can take a while to create, already increasing your invention costs before you even start clicking. You must also weight the risks and benefits, and do it on paper. ME -6 results in significantly more expensive construction.
If you have any tools that you use to calculate production costs, play with the numbers. Personally, I've found decryptors to not be useful in many cases. There are some items where they do provide significant benefits especially coupled with meta items, in particular when the meta is very cheap considering the production cost. I think that the decryptor type you described isn't very popular at all. Obviously I don't know how most other people manage their T2 production since I can't look over their shoulder, but the market seems to indicate so based on the cost of these decryptors (don't know what the drop ratio is like compared to other types, but from personal exploration ventures they aren't nearly frequent enough drops to account for the market value). This is also my gut feeling based on its stats. Can't think of a case where it would provide significant benefit to merit usage, but don't want to bother crunching numbers right now, sorry.
So, play with numbers, figure out if the drawbacks and the benefits are worth it, etc. Spreadsheets are bad at lying |
Jasmine Tea
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.02.15 23:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback.
Very helpful, I am realising that in this game, if its too good to be true then it probably is |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
231
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Posted - 2012.02.16 00:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jasmine Tea wrote:Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful, I am realising that in this game, if its too good to be true then it is
ftfy FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
138
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Posted - 2012.02.16 13:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jasmine Tea wrote:Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful, I am realising that in this game, if its too good to be true then it probably is
I think you just discovered rule 3.
Rule 1 - Don't fly what you cannot afford to lose
I'll let you keep looking for Rule 2 though
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Salcon Cliff
Aliastra Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.02.16 14:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
It has been a while since I did ship invention and production, but it used to be that one (and only one) of the decryptors became borderline profitable for ships that cost more than ~120 mil. I am sure the numbers have fluctuated since then, but in general, mods should never use decryptors and only expensive ships really benefit from decryptors (jump freighter, as an extreme example). |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
660
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Posted - 2012.02.17 11:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:I'll let you keep looking for Rule 2 though Is rule 2 "there are never enough decryptors on sale when you need them" ?
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
211
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Posted - 2012.02.17 13:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
To the OP, I suggest playing around in eve IPH to see what results you get with different options. Link in my sig. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
692
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Posted - 2012.02.17 13:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
There's also the rule of: "If the margins are good, expect competition to come flocking". |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
233
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Posted - 2012.02.17 13:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:There's also the rule of: "If the margins are good, expect competition to come flocking".
The corollary to that rule is: Diversify, diversify, diversify FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Mathis Athins
Paragon. Elite Space Guild
3
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Posted - 2012.02.18 20:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jasmine Tea wrote:Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful, I am realising that in this game, if its too good to be true then it probably is
True with life as well. Always hope, but never believe until you have done your homework thoroughly. |
Pink Leaf
GWA Corp
0
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Posted - 2012.02.18 21:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
I wasted a whole load of time and money on invention, what a let down. I hope that other aspects of Eve are more interesting and rewarding. |
Toshiro GreyHawk
159
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Posted - 2012.02.19 09:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah, I don't remember it all now but when I was first looking into T2 production - I too came to the conclusion that because of their price - decrytors were much more useful for fairly expensive items. Other things just didn't justify the costs.
. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
329
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Posted - 2012.02.19 12:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I think, as well, you'd need to throw in a max run bpc, rather than a single run bpc. but don't quote me on that.
Indeed, to get a Max Run T2 BPC, one must use a FULL RUN T1 BPC.
Use the Decryptors that increase ME, not runs. You will otherwise lose tons of money and waste your time.
Don't bother with Decryptors on Mods, unless they are really expensive mods.
Personally, I gave up months ago. Impossible to compete with both the cost of components made from Moon Goo, and the existence of T2 BPO's which you CANNOT compete with.
5 Mill profit on a 98,000,000 troublesome Crane is just not worth it after awhile............Good Luck. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
698
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Posted - 2012.02.19 12:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:The corollary to that rule is: Diversify, diversify, diversify
Very true.
There are at least 100 different T2 items which can be invented at a profit (probably 200+ in total). All of which can turn a minimum of 30M/wk profit if you dedicate a copy slot + manuf slot to churning them out. Some of them are in the 50-100M ISK/wk profit range, or higher. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
329
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Posted - 2012.02.19 14:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:The corollary to that rule is: Diversify, diversify, diversify Very true. There are at least 100 different T2 items which can be invented at a profit (probably 200+ in total). All of which can turn a minimum of 30M/wk profit if you dedicate a copy slot + manuf slot to churning them out. Some of them are in the 50-100M ISK/wk profit range, or higher.
That's a LOT of work actually and tying up a slot for less than 5 Million a day. And they say MINING is bad ISK/hr ?????
And bad waste of time FINDING these particular items as well. Unless one's idea of a GREAT time is Spreadsheets in Space.
It's just NOT worth it. One big yawn, that is manufacturing for sure. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Zathryon
Amarr General Drilling and Construction
0
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Posted - 2012.02.19 19:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
having run the numbers (and yes sometimes spreadsheets in space can be fun...) this is what ive found
the decrypters which give you an ME of -5 or -6 are rarely if ever profitable.
generally, the decrypter which results in an ME of -1 or -2 is usually best, which one depends on the item. for a zealot, best is an ME of -2 (profit=roughly 6M per unit) ME of -3 = 919k profit ME of -1 = negative profit all others = negative profit
for a paladin, best is an ME of -1 (profit=roughly 55M per unit) ME of -2 = near 0 profit all others = negative profit
(profit will also of course depend on skill and many other factors, all things being equal the comparison between ME levels still stays true. with perfect skills and using a POS the above is true).
generally, if it is a less expensive item, the -2 option will be better, if it is more expensive, the material cost outweighs any invention cost hugely and the -1 option is far better.
keep in mind I have only applied this to ships. module and ammo invention is best left without any decrypters. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.02.20 07:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
So total noob questions here. Let's say I try to invent a T2 ship and use the max run decryptor on it. The T1 BPC needs at least 10 runs on it? Or does it need to be a max runs one?
Also, can the T2 BPC have ME research done on it? (Ignore how long that takes for a bit.) |
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2012.02.20 10:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Quote: Personally, I gave up months ago. Impossible to compete with both the cost of components made from Moon Goo, and the existence of T2 BPO's which you CANNOT compete with.
:)
That argument again.
Zero tech II BPO's here. Making about 100mil/day, requiring about 40 clicks a day and a weekly Red Frog shipment from Jita to where I manufacture. Including everything, I think it takes 4 hours a week to maintain. 700mil divided by 4 hours of gametime required sounds like decent isk/hr to me. Especially since you can half of it remotely while doing something else.
Oh and I';m using Decryptors too.
As with everything in Eve, do your homework, watch the market and don't share your secrets. |
Ruziel
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
8
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Posted - 2012.02.20 22:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:So total noob questions here. Let's say I try to invent a T2 ship and use the max run decryptor on it. The T1 BPC needs at least 10 runs on it? Or does it need to be a max runs one?
Also, can the T2 BPC have ME research done on it? (Ignore how long that takes for a bit.)
To get the full additional runs, it needs to be max runs, otherwise you only get the additional runs.
No, you can't research on any BPC, let alone a T2 one. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
240
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Posted - 2012.02.20 22:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ruziel wrote:Mavnas wrote:So total noob questions here. Let's say I try to invent a T2 ship and use the max run decryptor on it. The T1 BPC needs at least 10 runs on it? Or does it need to be a max runs one?
Also, can the T2 BPC have ME research done on it? (Ignore how long that takes for a bit.) To get the full additional runs, it needs to be max runs, otherwise you only get the additional runs. No, you can't research on any BPC, let alone a T2 one.
It's also less important than you might think.
A lot of the materials in T2 production are 'extra materials'. Which aren't affected by ME.
Take a look at photon scattering Field 2s.
Base materials are, at worse (-6 ME) 49K or so. the extra materials are 469K. a 'perfect' blueprint would save 21k of the total.
Where a BPO has the advantage is the lack of invention. Which saves on the order of 200K or so per unit, with moderate science skills (iirc).
Yes, it's beneficial. But not /majorly/. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
500
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Posted - 2012.02.20 23:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Pink Leaf wrote:I wasted a whole load of time and money on invention, what a let down. I hope that other aspects of Eve are more interesting and rewarding. Wild guess: you tried to invent ships just like every other industry rookie?
Try ammo, modules, and rigs.
I earn so much that most of the time I can't be bothered to build more.
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Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.02.21 05:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hmm... so if most of those mats are not reduced my ME, I'm having trouble seeing how some of these ships are profitable at any level of ME?
(Some of the smaller ones seem like they'd be fine.) |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
334
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 11:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Quote: Personally, I gave up months ago. Impossible to compete with both the cost of components made from Moon Goo, and the existence of T2 BPO's which you CANNOT compete with.
:) That argument again. Zero tech II BPO's here. Making about 100mil/day, requiring about 40 clicks a day and a weekly Red Frog shipment from Jita to where I manufacture. Including everything, I think it takes 4 hours a week to maintain. 700mil divided by 4 hours of gametime required sounds like decent isk/hr to me. Especially since you can half of it remotely while doing something else. Oh and I';m using Decryptors too. As with everything in Eve, do your homework, watch the market and don't share your secrets.
Spreadsheets and logs posted please, or its a lie. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
334
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 11:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:Hmm... so if most of those mats are not reduced my ME, I'm having trouble seeing how some of these ships are profitable at any level of ME?
(Some of the smaller ones seem like they'd be fine.)
Welcome to what I discovered a year ago and got me to bail out of the fallacy that Industry is profitable. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2012.02.22 08:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Krixtal wrote: Spreadsheets and logs posted please, or its a lie.
Quote: ....... don't share your secrets.
:D |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.02.22 16:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Mavnas wrote:Hmm... so if most of those mats are not reduced my ME, I'm having trouble seeing how some of these ships are profitable at any level of ME?
(Some of the smaller ones seem like they'd be fine.) Welcome to what I discovered a year ago and got me to bail out of the fallacy that Industry is profitable.
Industry is quite profitable, but I don't understand why some things seem stupidly easy and profitable and some are super hard and also not profitable. And I don't just mean temporary spikes when someone sends the Jita price of something up 75% and then you can cash in if you're fast enough (I'm not usually that good). |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
241
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 17:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Some T2 stuff isn't profitable.
Like the Eos, or Astarte.
For those, maybe it's a T2 BPO. That I could believe, as they're low volume products. A BPO could probably meet the needs of the market. Ships really aren't the place to look for profit. T2 or T1.
Then again, the EOS and Astarte aren't profitable if you're buying all the components,and have an ME 500 BPO.
Pretty much it all comes down to: look at what sells, then run the numbers on it. Either the market will be saturated by manufacturers and the margin will be tiny, or the manufacturers won't be able to keep up and you'll be able to make a profit.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
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