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hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 11:37:00 - [1] In short: the 3 rocket launchers on the malediction are near useless. No inty pilot would go under web range or switch to javelin with the speed penalty. Please, either give the malediction a rockets range bonus like the Heretic or accomodate lights.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:01:00 - [2] I think you don't know what you're talking about. pages lyria skydancer --- planetary interaction idea!
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:19:00 - [3] I'm talking about inties, this thread is clearly not for you.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:22:00 - [4] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/02/2008 12:22:57 Originally by: Grimpak I think you don't know what you're talking about. pages lyria skydancer LoL On a more serious note: Seriously malediction is fine, if anything its the crusader that needs a cap buff because malediction can outperform it in many ways. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:36:00 - [5] Edited by: Grimpak on 13/02/2008 12:37:59 Originally by: hipno I'm talking about inties, this thread is clearly not for you. simply don't use the malediction as a damage dealer when tackling. the malediction is basically the best mix of both worlds: it has tank to whitstand punishment, it has range to tackle, speed to escape and firepower that can rival with the taranis. there is one other inty I fear the most when I'm in a taranis and that is a rocket malediction. --- planetary interaction idea!
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:41:00 - [6] I agree, you have no clue... 3x missile launcher T2 and you are fine. (besides I would fit a webber anyway, just in case - and no, I don't like low skiller that need a cap recharger )
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:44:00 - [7] The crusader is fine, you can solo any inty before you run out of cap. It's about ship purpose: Crusader anti small ships, Malediction long time solo tackling bigger ships. The Malediction with maxed skills you get 10km rocket range with T1/faction ammo. With that range the decision to appoach and fire is a lottery, will the target have a webber? Any other inty has an optimal of 15km+ being able to shoot out of an overloaded non-faction webber range from the first second. After using and loving this ship a lot (100+ "kills", many looses too) I've end up using its weapons very few times, not fair compared to the rest of inties.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:48:00 - [8] Originally by: hipno The crusader is fine, you can solo any inty before you run out of cap. It's about ship purpose: Crusader anti small ships, Malediction long time solo tackling bigger ships. The Malediction with maxed skills you get 10km rocket range with T1/faction ammo. With that range the decision to appoach and fire is a lottery, will the target have a webber? Any other inty has an optimal of 15km+ being able to shoot out of an overloaded non-faction webber range from the first second. After using and loving this ship a lot (100+ "kills", many looses too) I've end up using its weapons very few times, not fair compared to the rest of inties. well the weapons on an ares are fairly useless aswell. I've seen corpmates slapping T1 125mm AC's in there. do they complain about the piffle damage? no. they tackle. --- planetary interaction idea!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:01:00 - [9] Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 13:02:26 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 13/02/2008 12:37:59 Originally by: hipno I'm talking about inties, this thread is clearly not for you. simply don't use the malediction as a damage dealer when tackling. the malediction is basically the best mix of both worlds: it has tank to whitstand punishment, it has range to tackle, speed to escape and firepower that can rival with the taranis. there is one other inty I fear the most when I'm in a taranis and that is a rocket malediction. Is this a joke? It has 1 damage bonus to rockets only. Its outdamaged by a crow in both the short and long range and offers no real advantages for it since hit point based tanks are king for inties and armor resists are less effective than damage bonuses. It barely even has the lock range to use its tackling bonus. Its tied with the raptor for the title of "worst tackler"[while the raptor can lock over the edge of its scram range, the malediction is faster] and much much worse than the damage inties for killing things. ed: When it had the double damage bonus it had a purpose because it really could get into web range of inties and then mess them up, but now you are better off using a crow.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:12:00 - [10] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/02/2008 13:12:22 Ok here is the deal: There are only 2 scenarios: 1) You tackle something that is big and dangerous, like nasty BCs and BSs and even cruisers with possible webs. 2) You tackle something frig size. --------------------- This is what happens if you fit it with repper+nos+rockets --------------------- 1. If you are solo or in small gang, ie it takes long time to take down the target, you will have to stay long range. There is no problem sticking javelin rockets here and doing damage because the speed loss isnt enough to really jeopardize your inty. 1. If you are in a fleet fight, ie bigger gang sizes on both sides, there is no problem just going in below 10km because the target wont have time to bother with you. Rapiers and Huggins pose a much higher threat then anything else in these kinds of fights. 2. If its something with a weak tank youll prolly kill it, especially many inties. -------------------- This is what happens if you fit it with std launchers -------------------- 1. You tackle from afar doing dps of a water pistol on something that has so much tank that your dps dont matter anyway. In fleet fights youll do less dps then the rocket malediction with basically the same survival chance. 2. You do approx 0 damage on fast moving frigs because you cant really harm inties without webbing them and if you do fit a webber to web inties maybe its better to fit rockets that actually do quite alot more damage. If you dont with web youll suck anyway because you cant tackle nano hacs for your gang. ---------------------- This is why I think std launcher maledictions are comedy fits tbh. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Llievit Nnang Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 13:02:26 Is this a joke? It has 1 damage bonus to rockets only. Its outdamaged by a crow in both the short and long range and offers no real advantages for it since hit point based tanks are king for inties and armor resists are less effective than damage bonuses. Which setup outdamages which setup? Would you mind explaining that claim of yours in a little more detail?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Goumindong Is this a joke? It has 1 damage bonus to rockets only. Its outdamaged by a crow in both the short and long range and offers no real advantages for it since hit point based tanks are king for inties and armor resists are less effective than damage bonuses. It barely even has the lock range to use its tackling bonus. Its tied with the raptor for the title of "worst tackler"[while the raptor can lock over the edge of its scram range, the malediction is faster] and much much worse than the damage inties for killing things. ed: When it had the double damage bonus it had a purpose because it really could get into web range of inties and then mess them up, but now you are better off using a crow. A rocket crow cant repper tank with nos like the malediction. The problem lies more in the crow when it comes to balance. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Llievit Nnang Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/02/2008 13:12:22 Ok here is the deal: There are only 2 scenarios: ... No objections from my side ;)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Llievit Nnang Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 13:02:26 Is this a joke? It has 1 damage bonus to rockets only. Its outdamaged by a crow in both the short and long range and offers no real advantages for it since hit point based tanks are king for inties and armor resists are less effective than damage bonuses. Which setup outdamages which setup? Would you mind explaining that claim of yours in a little more detail? Its true. Even a standard launcher fitted crow outdamages a rocket malediction. Its like having pulses outdamaging blasters. The short and long range of each missile class (except torps) isnt balanced. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.13 14:16:00 - [15] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/02/2008 14:19:52 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Its true. Even a standard launcher fitted crow outdamages a rocket malediction. Its like having pulses outdamaging blasters. The short and long range of each missile class (except torps) isnt balanced. You'll laugh when I tell you that even a AC Malediction (not to mention a blaster/pulse Malediction) outdamages the rocket Malediction. The DPS of rockets in general is very bad really; they just desperately need a 15% boost to damage at the very least to be competitive to other weapon systems, slot for slot (and still do least DPS). I was personally thinking of using the rocket Malediction to replace the Rifter as my small ship of choice as it's just a ten day train (I have T2 rockets, trained them for the Rifter's fourth slot for maximum Rifter ownage), but there's really no point due to massively sub-par DPS to, well, anything. HAMs are so-so; I use them a lot as additional weapons and I like the extra DPS they provide as is, and while they could use a small (marginal) boost, they're relatively fine. If you look at missile progression (rockets->HAM->torps) you see the differences between rockets and HAMs and HAMs and torps are outright massive compared to differences between small guns->medium guns->large guns (which are about 33%, I believe), while HAMs and rockets don't do -that- much extra DPS over their long-range counterparts. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 14:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. If you are solo or in small gang, ie it takes long time to take down the target, you will have to stay long range. There is no problem sticking javelin rockets here and doing damage because the speed loss isnt enough to really jeopardize your inty. To loose 1500m/s+ puts you most likely under missiles fire, average nano's and much under the speed of the inties comming to help your target. Speed is your only ally flying a paper inty. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. If you are in a fleet fight, ie bigger gang sizes on both sides, there is no problem just going in below 10km because the target wont have time to bother with you. Rapiers and Huggins pose a much higher threat then anything else in these kinds of fights. The target won't be able to deal with you, agreed. But the rest of the fleet will. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. If its something with a weak tank youll prolly kill it, especially many inties. The Malediction belongs to the "tackler class" inty (little damage, slower at top speed, faster as warp speed). So I wont discuss anti-inty setups with this ship. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This is what happens if you fit it with std launchers Yeah, you throw out the window the ship bonus and loose arround 50% damage. I'm not complaining about its damage, only about its useless range. Doing pvp and not being able to shoot most of the times is not fun.
Llievit Nnang Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 14:20:00 - [17] I'm kind of confused. Why is the SML crow outdamaging a RL malediction? Can someone post the low/high slots of example setups?
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2008.02.13 14:44:00 - [18] Originally by: hipno I'm not complaining about its damage, only about its useless range. Doing pvp and not being able to shoot most of the times is not fun. As I already mentioned, you have no clue about ceptors. Your job is to tackle or anti-inty (that are tackling your mates). 1.If you tackle you don't have to use your weapons at all. Fireing with light missiles, rockets or small what ever on a BS you tackle is pointless. 2. You choose with missiles or rockets how and which ceptors you attack. 2.1 With rockets you have PG left for NOS/repper etc and with a webber you are good setup up for a close range fight that not much ceptors can survive. But it has also some disadvantages and not every ceptor is attackable. 2.2 with missiles, you can fight outside webrange. The ceptors that can't be beaten with the rocket setup are beatable with your missiles, but hardly the ones that could be fought with the other setup. btw. that counts for nearly every range or close range setup for any other ceptor around. But I am happy, if most won't agree and fly their crappy ceptor => more kills for me
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 15:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2008 13:02:26 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 13/02/2008 12:37:59 Originally by: hipno I'm talking about inties, this thread is clearly not for you. simply don't use the malediction as a damage dealer when tackling. the malediction is basically the best mix of both worlds: it has tank to whitstand punishment, it has range to tackle, speed to escape and firepower that can rival with the taranis. there is one other inty I fear the most when I'm in a taranis and that is a rocket malediction. Is this a joke? It has 1 damage bonus to rockets only. Its outdamaged by a crow in both the short and long range and offers no real advantages for it since hit point based tanks are king for inties and armor resists are less effective than damage bonuses. It barely even has the lock range to use its tackling bonus. Its tied with the raptor for the title of "worst tackler"[while the raptor can lock over the edge of its scram range, the malediction is faster] and much much worse than the damage inties for killing things. ed: When it had the double damage bonus it had a purpose because it really could get into web range of inties and then mess them up, but now you are better off using a crow. my mistake in the damage bit then. it is not the worse inty however. it's just that the ares can be damn faster and the stilleto has 4 mids. and the raptor is miles below the 'diction tbh. --- planetary interaction idea!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.13 15:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/02/2008 14:19:52 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Its true. Even a standard launcher fitted crow outdamages a rocket malediction. Its like having pulses outdamaging blasters. The short and long range of each missile class (except torps) isnt balanced. You'll laugh when I tell you that even a AC Malediction (not to mention a blaster/pulse Malediction) outdamages the rocket Malediction. The rocket malediction can stack at 8km and still be doing full damage though. Of course, so can a crow, but it will be doing 25% more damage. SAR+nos on an inty is a bad deal. Small ships die too fast and inties have too little resists[even the malediction] to worry about repping for the most part. All you need to worry about is EHP. This is why anti-inty ranis's run DCII[and not plates]. You are almost universally better off with another gun up there[so rockets + 1 AC w/ barrage or 1 pulse laser with scorch if you dont mind the cap use or arent skilled in AC's] and common tanking mods make the EHP differential very small. In the end, the Malediction isnt bad, Its still an inty with 3 meds, its still fast, and it can still tackle outside of heavy neut range. But with the ares[4 lows=faster + longer lock range + 3 meds], Stiletto[nearly as fast + longer lock range + 4 meds], the raptor[slower + longer lock range], and the crow[same skill train as the raptor + as fast + much more damage]. It seems like you arent really getting anything special you couldnt be getting in any other fit/train and as well, gaining no real versatility for the loss[as in, being able to both be a good anti-inty and a good long range tackle at the same time]. Make its damage bonus apply to standard missiles, give it a longer lock range, or simply not have it be the long range tackler for Amarr and make the crusader that [so it gets 2 rocket damage bonuses, the sig radius bonus, 3 launchers, and the armor resist bonus] and it becomes just fine.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.13 15:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Grimpak and the raptor is miles below the 'diction tbh. Kinda. The raptor doesn't need a sensor booster to be usable as a long range tackler while the malediction does[28km max lock range at all 5's]. So while the raptor is terrible at fitting guns[-4 PG, wtf CCP?], and slower than the Malediction. It can actually use that med slot for something useful it it wants to be able to get points as soon as it hits 28km, or if you are flying with a skirmish commander[36.4km scram], or overloading[36.4km scram], or both[47km scram, requires the sensor booster on the raptor, impossible on the Malediction] In my estimation this makes up for the speed difference, but at that point its up to preference and its hard to which one, if any, is better or worse, just that the Ares and Stiletto are better.
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 16:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Gordon Red 1.If you tackle you don't have to use your weapons at all. Fireing with light missiles, rockets or small what ever on a BS you tackle is pointless. The same as if I tackle a carrier. And what? There are lot of sub-BS ships you tackle where your extra firepower is welcome. Any bit of extra damage counts in a fair engage. Anyway, if I tackle something, with rockets I can't shoot, while all my friends enjoy shooting. Originally by: Gordon Red 2. You choose with missiles or rockets how and which ceptors you attack. 2.1 With rockets you have PG left for NOS/repper etc and with a webber you are good setup up for a close range fight that not much ceptors can survive. If you go for repairer you'll run out of cap in 30 seconds, even with a nos. Then you need a cap booster loosing the webber. And if you loose the webber you can hardly maintain the close range fight.
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 17:14:00 - [23] Yeah Goumindong, that's another pointless thing about the malediction: you can scramble farther than you can target.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.13 17:40:00 - [24] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/02/2008 17:41:42 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/02/2008 17:41:30 Originally by: hipno If you go for repairer you'll run out of cap in 30 seconds, even with a nos. Then you need a cap booster loosing the webber. And if you loose the webber you can hardly maintain the close range fight. Thats why I fit 2 cap relays in lows (I still break 5km/s speed) and with that my friend you can either run NOS+MWD+WEB+SCRAM+ROCKETS forever or you can shut down the mwd when you get close and run NOS+WEB+SCRAM+REPPER+ROCKETS forever. Thats pretty neat, because anything without web will have trouble against you, if they send light drones after you, you might have chance to delay your death long enough to pop em with your rockets. The cap relays also enables you to throw in a rep with mwd going permanently wich makes you immune against missile inties that are gunning for you unless they want to come into web range. Malediction isnt for the feint hearted :-p -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Gordon Red SteelVipers	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:33:00 - [25] Originally by: hipno If you go for repairer you'll run out of cap in 30 seconds, even with a nos. Then you need a cap booster loosing the webber. And if you loose the webber you can hardly maintain the close range fight. sigh If you really run all mods at the same time... You don't need the MWD all the time, nor the repper. Not even the scrambler is needed all the time. But I doubt that you can understand that.
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:09:00 - [26] Who said all the mods? The repairer alone will eat you cap in so little time that is not useful in an inty without cap mods. You're defeding a setup I doubt you've ever tried. Anyway the fact is that Amarr inty pilots start trying the malediction, they soon realize rockets have little use, experiment with a mix of turrets, lights, nos, etc and end up switching to the Crusader. Really, rockets have no sense in an inty. For the Vengance with high resistances or the Heretic with range bonus rockets maybe ok, but not for the Malediction.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:39:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong SAR+nos on an inty is a bad deal. Small ships die too fast and inties have too little resists[even the malediction] to worry about repping for the most part. All you need to worry about is EHP. This is why anti-inty ranis's run DCII[and not plates]. TBH, I don't really agree here. While I do agree that a rocket malediction benefits more from a extra gun rather then a NOS, I find SAR IIs on small ships (together with a DC II) to be very good, and rep a lot of damage quite fast when overheated. I have killed blaster-Taranises (optimized for killing ceptors though, so 2x OD II, 1x DC II) in a Rifter despite their somewhat better EHP, beacuse I could run the heated SAR enough to give me 500-ish HP extra before the inevitable explosion. I would personally love to use the Malediction, but the utterly horrible rocket DPS hampers me from using it in the same way I'd use a, for example, Rifter/Taranis. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gordon Red SteelVipers	Posted - 2008.02.14 12:13:00 - [28] Originally by: hipno The repairer alone will eat you cap in so little time that is not useful in an inty without cap mods. You're defeding a setup I doubt you've ever tried. I can fly every ceptor in the game and use every weapon. I fly ceptors all the time. Come again, if you played more as the couple of month you have done. This is my last post in this stupid thread. - Malediction is fine (locking range could be greater, but this is not that important) - Rocket in general could use a boost, the T2 variants are not worth using. The assault missile javelins are cool, but on small ships with the rocket javelin variant it will killing you, because the speed is so important and the fury is laughtable range wise and it ruins your cap. If you want to use rockets, open a thread for rockets not the Malediction. Discussion over.
hipno 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:12:00 - [29] For the rest, I've updated the OP with a long explanation taking into account all the comments given. Any more suggestions or comments are welcome. Thanks all!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:35:00 - [30] The real problem is that rockets do crap damage. Fix rockets and malediction is pwnage. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation

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