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Crim Flagging and Sec Loss For Remote Repping

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Soljisk Gallente Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:04:00 - [1] Ok I Can understand if the person is already flagged you getting flagged too. But going global and losing sec status if the person is an outlaw is just stupid point blank period. You can't help people in your gang even if they arent global without going global yourself just because they're an outlaw. Throw some ideas @ me about what you think about this, and people who just are biased against piracy and flashy red people your opinion doesn't count.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:07:00 - [2] I personally think you should have been Concorded for helping an outlaw whilst having a positive security status... - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Soljisk Gallente Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:08:00 - [3] Originally by: DrAtomic I personally think you should have been Concorded for helping an outlaw whilst having a positive security status... 2 problems with what you said. I'm an outlaw for 1, and 2 concord is not present in low sec where outlaws are found.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:13:00 - [4] Edited by: DrAtomic on 13/02/2008 23:15:17 Originally by: Soljisk Originally by: DrAtomic I personally think you should have been Concorded for helping an outlaw whilst having a positive security status... 2 problems with what you said. I'm an outlaw for 1, and 2 concord is not present in low sec where outlaws are found. Well you want a serious response then? In all honesty it makes sense, from a pvp standpoint of view. Since from a pvp standpoint of view you are helping an outlaw killing someone in lowsec which is against Concord law but not enforced by Concord allthough registered in their central database and administered through security rating. I'm curious however if you would also loose sec status if you were helping said outlaw whilst he was killing NPC's, an activity that is Concord sponsored. So jeah from a PVP standpoint of view I would say fair game behaviour. Edit: to clarify if you see remote repping in the same way as you would if you were helping him shoot the same target it makes sense to me. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Soljisk Gallente Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:18:00 - [5] Originally by: DrAtomic Edited by: DrAtomic on 13/02/2008 23:15:17 Originally by: Soljisk Originally by: DrAtomic I personally think you should have been Concorded for helping an outlaw whilst having a positive security status... 2 problems with what you said. I'm an outlaw for 1, and 2 concord is not present in low sec where outlaws are found. Well you want a serious response then? In all honesty it makes sense, from a pvp standpoint of view. Since from a pvp standpoint of view you are helping an outlaw killing someone in lowsec which is against Concord law but not enforced by Concord allthough registered in their central database and administered through security rating. I'm curious however if you would also loose sec status if you were helping said outlaw whilst he was killing NPC's, an activity that is Concord sponsored. So jeah from a PVP standpoint of view I would say fair game behaviour. Edit: to clarify if you see remote repping in the same way as you would if you were helping him shoot the same target it makes sense to me. That's what i was saying I could understand if he was global already. But as is you get a global and sec hit even if hes not global and hes just sitting there.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:30:00 - [6] Originally by: DrAtomic Well you want a serious response then? In all honesty it makes sense, from a pvp standpoint of view. Since from a pvp standpoint of view you are helping an outlaw killing someone in lowsec which is against Concord law but not enforced by Concord allthough registered in their central database and administered through security rating. The current flagging rules do not make sense, nor do they work as you describe. A group of poor mis-understood individuals are flying through low-security space. They get engaged by a group of vigilantes. Since the poor mis-understood individuals have -10 security status the vigilantes do not get sentry aggro. The poor mis-understood individuals fire back on the vigilantes and get global criminal flags and sentry aggro because the vigilantes are only flagged to the one individual they shot, not to the corp. Anyone coming to the aide of the victim of the vigilantes is a criminal, even though they are just protecting their corp mates from the unwarranted aggression of dangerous vigilantes. Also, if two groups of -10 pirates engage each-other with battleships there will be no GCF nor will the sentrys get involved. However if they do so with remote reppy battleships everyone doing the repping will gain a GCF. So no. Current flagging rules don't make sense from the gameplay perspective at all. Quote: I'm curious however if you would also loose sec status if you were helping said outlaw whilst he was killing NPC's, an activity that is Concord sponsored. Yes Quote: So jeah from a PVP standpoint of view I would say fair game behaviour. No. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Soljisk But as is you get a global and sec hit even if hes not global and hes just sitting there. Ok, let me dumify it for myself just to see if I understand you correctly. 1). Outlaw Awfull attacks Carebear Ahhnotagain and kills him going global. 2). Outlow Bloodlust logs on and x-s up in corp. 3). Outlaw Awfull invites Outlaw Bloodlust to gang. 4). Outlaw Bloodlust undocks in his logi and warps to Outlaw Awfull. 5). Outlaw Bloodlust sees that Outlaw Awfull is damaged and repairs him. 6). As a result Outlaw Bloodlust takes a sec hit and goes global as well. Correct? I assume Outlaw Awfull still had his pvp timer going since he was still global right? If so it would still make sense to take the sec hit and go global as well since you essentially helped kill Carebear Ahhnotagain through repairing the damage Carebear Ahhnotagain did (or the sentries did) to Outlaw Awfull whilst partaking in a Concord sactioned act. I.e. if Outlaw Awfull robbed the bank and Outlaw Bloodlust would pick up Outlaw Awfull in a get away car they both would be chased by the police and both would be prosecuted even though Outlaw Bloodlust didnt partake in the bank robbery himself. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Ridley Tree A group of poor mis-understood individuals Lol, Concord must have reaaaaaly misunderstood them then... :P Originally by: Ridley Tree Also, if two groups of -10 pirates engage each-other with battleships there will be no GCF nor will the sentrys get involved. However if they do so with remote reppy battleships everyone doing the repping will gain a GCF. I'd rate that as a bug. Originally by: Ridley Tree Quote: I'm curious however if you would also loose sec status if you were helping said outlaw whilst he was killing NPC's, an activity that is Concord sponsored. Yes I'd rate that as a bug as well, allthough it may not be an easy one to solve. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Soljisk Gallente Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:45:00 - [9] Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: Soljisk But as is you get a global and sec hit even if hes not global and hes just sitting there. Ok, let me dumify it for myself just to see if I understand you correctly. 1). Outlaw Awfull attacks Carebear Ahhnotagain and kills him going global. 2). Outlow Bloodlust logs on and x-s up in corp. 3). Outlaw Awfull invites Outlaw Bloodlust to gang. 4). Outlaw Bloodlust undocks in his logi and warps to Outlaw Awfull. 5). Outlaw Bloodlust sees that Outlaw Awfull is damaged and repairs him. 6). As a result Outlaw Bloodlust takes a sec hit and goes global as well. Correct? I assume Outlaw Awfull still had his pvp timer going since he was still global right? If so it would still make sense to take the sec hit and go global as well since you essentially helped kill Carebear Ahhnotagain through repairing the damage Carebear Ahhnotagain did (or the sentries did) to Outlaw Awfull whilst partaking in a Concord sactioned act. I.e. if Outlaw Awfull robbed the bank and Outlaw Bloodlust would pick up Outlaw Awfull in a get away car they both would be chased by the police and both would be prosecuted even though Outlaw Bloodlust didnt partake in the bank robbery himself. Yeh but if the outlaw is just sitting there minding his own business and hes in your corp and he gets attacked you will go global and lose sec status even though he himself is not global.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2008.02.13 23:45:00 - [10] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 13/02/2008 23:45:31 Originally by: DrAtomic Lol, Concord must have reaaaaaly misunderstood them then... :P Its a hard life. The man just won't get off our backs. Quote: I'd rate that as a bug. I'd rate that as a bug as well, allthough it may not be an easy one to solve. I'd wish thats how CCP felt. And maybe they do. But they've made no attempt to solve it. Originally by: DrAtomic Ok, let me dumify it for myself just to see if I understand you correctly. 1). Outlaw Awfull attacks Carebear Ahhnotagain and kills him going global. 2). Outlow Bloodlust logs on and x-s up in corp. 3). Outlaw Awfull invites Outlaw Bloodlust to gang. 4). Outlaw Bloodlust undocks in his logi and warps to Outlaw Awfull. 5). Outlaw Bloodlust sees that Outlaw Awfull is damaged and repairs him. 6). As a result Outlaw Bloodlust takes a sec hit and goes global as well. Correct? Nothing in that chain events is described by the OP at all. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.14 00:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Soljisk Yeh but if the outlaw is just sitting there minding his own business and hes in your corp and he gets attacked you will go global and lose sec status even though he himself is not global. Err... Sooo... Scenario 1 1). Outlaw Awfull and Outlaw Bloodlust sit at their local lowsec gate telling rude jokes involving Concord, hookers, donuts and a neat trick, both are in same corp and ganged. 2). Carebear Backforrevenge jumps in screaming something about an angry agent and loosing dolls whilst aggressing Outlaw Awfull. 3). Outlaw Awfull falls of his chair from laughter and says let me tank him, im not returning fire. 4). Outlaw Bloodlust hangs back still pondering the clue on the last concord joke but takes a sec hit and goes global even though neither is engaging. or Scenario 2 1). same 2). same 3). same 4). Outlaw Bloodlust remote reps Outlaw Awfull and takes a sec hit and goes global even though neither is engaging. Scenario 3 1) same 2) same 3) Outlaw Awfull falls of his chair from laughter and says let me solo him. 4) Outlaw Bloodlust hangs back still pondering the clue on the last concord joke but takes a sec hit and goes global even though he doesnot even have a module activated or drones out. I'm sry but I seem to be failing to grasp the exact scenario of the engagement. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Leon Blue Gallente Red.	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:06:00 - [12] Edited by: Leon Blue on 14/02/2008 01:07:37 As I understand the op it's like this: 1) Outlaw Awful and Outlaw Bloodlust sitting somewhere in lowsec, telling jokes, reading FHM and whatnot, neither is criminally flagged. 2) Outlaw Awful has a bit armor damage and thus asks Outlaw Bloodlust if he has a remote repper fitted. 3) Outlaw Bloodlust has indeed a remote repper on his puny frigate and reps Outlaw Awful, who still isn't criminally flagged to anybody. 4) Outlaw Bloodlust gets a sec hit and becomes criminally flagged for no apparent reason and gets wtfpwned by sentry fire. Correct? Edit: Scenario 2 in the above post works also but to keep it simple I left the Carebear out.
Benedic The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Leon Blue Edited by: Leon Blue on 14/02/2008 01:07:37 As I understand the op it's like this: 1) Outlaw Awful and Outlaw Bloodlust sitting somewhere in lowsec, telling jokes, reading FHM and whatnot, neither is criminally flagged. 2) Outlaw Awful has a bit armor damage and thus asks Outlaw Bloodlust if he has a remote repper fitted. 3) Outlaw Bloodlust has indeed a remote repper on his puny frigate and reps Outlaw Awful, who still isn't criminally flagged to anybody. 4) Outlaw Bloodlust gets a sec hit and becomes criminally flagged for no apparent reason and gets wtfpwned by sentry fire. Correct? Correct, the real awesome thing is if you rep your OWN DRONES as an outlaw you get a gcd + sec loss.
Soljisk Gallente Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:02:00 - [14] Edited by: Soljisk on 14/02/2008 03:02:37 Originally by: Benedic Originally by: Leon Blue Edited by: Leon Blue on 14/02/2008 01:07:37 As I understand the op it's like this: 1) Outlaw Awful and Outlaw Bloodlust sitting somewhere in lowsec, telling jokes, reading FHM and whatnot, neither is criminally flagged. 2) Outlaw Awful has a bit armor damage and thus asks Outlaw Bloodlust if he has a remote repper fitted. 3) Outlaw Bloodlust has indeed a remote repper on his puny frigate and reps Outlaw Awful, who still isn't criminally flagged to anybody. 4) Outlaw Bloodlust gets a sec hit and becomes criminally flagged for no apparent reason and gets wtfpwned by sentry fire. Correct? Correct, the real awesome thing is if you rep your OWN DRONES as an outlaw you get a gcd + sec loss. Exactly does anyone else not think this is stupid and in need of changing?
Meeko Gloom The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:25:00 - [15] Your aiding a person that concord labled as a known criminal, why shouldnt concord see you as an enemy then is beyond me. If you fighting in a 1v1 vs someone and I reped him, wouldt you assume i was against you an on his side, mmmmyes, so does concord, and they deal with you accordingly, by lowering sec, and making you a criminal.... also keep in mind sec is just standings with concord and nothing more, which makes the statements above make sence in why they drop sec, and flag you. Nuff said -------------------------- Guns dont Kill People Drones Do
Mobius Amarr Bad Temper's	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:37:00 - [16] u even get gcf even if u remote rep any drones or fighters that may be damaged let alone try and rep a corp mate if u r -5. Taking into account that you nor your corpmate are criminally flagged and just doing some repair work. I see this as a major flaw in the flaggng rules
Wylker Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:49:00 - [17] The guy you rep doesn't have to be GCC'd. If you do any helpful action to an outlaw you get a global countdown, the same as if you just shot someone. Its a stupid broken mechanic.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:52:00 - [18] Someone lose a logistics ship to sentries at a station? Yeah, it's kinda broken... No worries for me soonÖ ------------ Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.02.14 04:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Soljisk Exactly does anyone else not think this is stupid and in need of changing? No. It was changed to the current situation because previously a BS with enough logistic support could tank concord in high sec. You can thank the Zombies for the current rules, they had some fun in Yulai, and since then..this is how it works. If you were not flagged, you can imagine the fun still to be had in high sec with a few logistics ships repping you
Soljisk Gallente Logistical Anomaly	Posted - 2008.02.14 04:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Ernesto Hoost Originally by: Soljisk Exactly does anyone else not think this is stupid and in need of changing? No. It was changed to the current situation because previously a BS with enough logistic support could tank concord in high sec. You can thank the Zombies for the current rules, they had some fun in Yulai, and since then..this is how it works. If you were not flagged, you can imagine the fun still to be had in high sec with a few logistics ships repping you Repping a Flagged person would still get you global. Im talking about repping a non flagged outlaw. An outlaw wouldnt be in high sec anyways.
Ernesto Hoost	Posted - 2008.02.14 04:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Soljisk Repping a Flagged person would still get you global. Im talking about repping a non flagged outlaw. An outlaw wouldnt be in high sec anyways. Its the same reason. Rules were changed way back, and it "does" make sense if you think about it. If you are assisting a globaled guy or outlaw, then you become a target too. I have pirated on my main for a long time, and once managed to global the entire gang in war when we were spider repping. It was low sec, and we still came out on top..but they didn't thank me for bringing the sentries in on them Rules were changed after this event
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:22:00 - [22] Edited by: Qui Shon on 14/02/2008 13:26:28 Well, if you really wanted it to be logical, since sentry guns respond to criminal actions, sentry guns should always immediately open fire on outlaws who come into range, since outlaws, within the sec rating system, are certifiably criminals. They have passed the innocent until proven guilty point, they're just plain guilty, according to concord. From a gameplay perspective that might not be good, of course. And from a gameplay perspective it might be better if you could rep unflagged ships/drones without getting flagged. But don't say it doesn't make sense, because it makes perfect sense, just doesn't go as far as it could.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:32:00 - [23] yeah, it's a stupid system for outlaws. Outlaw is sitting on a gate, doing nothing, sentries don't fire at him. Second player starts remote repping outlaw and gets sentry aggro. I do agree that when the outlaw just got global crim counter that the remote repper should get it too but if the sentries aren't shooting the outlaw, they shouldn't shoot the remote repper either.

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