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Draahkness
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.17 04:56:00 -
[1]
Big thumbs up for the amarr changes upcoming. With the ones anounced + the PG change anounced for later on amarr will become a viable option for pvp. Good job CCP.
Now the problem. One of the problems with amarr for pvp was always the inability to switch damage type, all other races has at least one bs that can choose damage. For pvp this is now less of a problem with the reduction in armor base EM resist, but what about PVE? There are 3 rouge factions weak to EM: drones, sansha and blood raiders. If your alliance lives anywhere else you cant rat properly/at all in an amarr ship. My own pulse lasers for example cant break the shield tank of a higher tier guristas bs. Not knowing the number I'm guessing they have approxematly 85-90% EM reist. Domi, phoon and raven can all switch ammo/drone types to match the lower resist on serpentis, guristas and angels. Armageddon cannot. Amarr could use some loving in the pve departement as well, when you get around to it.
My humble suggestion would be to make abaddon a torpedo boat (to match the earler 'new' amarr). 5% to all armor resists, 10% to torpedo flight time and 8 launcher slots would be nice. Either that or a 100% thermal crystal + an exlosive crystal + a kinetic crystal.
Thank you.
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Kelmantis
The Greater Goon
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.17 11:00:00 -
[2]
Though not a battleship, the sacrilege can rat any type of spawn pretty well, though this does not change the fact that the Amarr battleships is simply lasers, lasers and more lasers.
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Law Enforcer
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.17 15:59:00 -
[3]
[ 2008.02.17 05:47:51 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Amarr Navy Tachyon Beam Laser perfectly strikes Pithior Terrorist, wrecking for 1422.5 damage.
get better turret skills. amarrs raw dps overcomes the EM resist.
when a paladin is doing 840ish raw dps it's still going to run a gurista level 4 faster then a cnr with 480 lowest resistance dps.
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Alex Shurk
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Posted - 2008.02.17 17:29:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Law Enforcer
when a paladin is doing 840ish raw dps it's still going to run a gurista level 4 faster then a cnr with 480 lowest resistance dps.
Guristas average 75% EM and 50% thermal. Say, a 60/40 split on the EM/therm. That means 504 em and 336 therm. Or, once you apply resists, 126 + 168, to make 294 effective dps.
480 raw DPS versus the gurista's lowest damage of kinetic, which averages 45%, results in 264 effective DPS. So, you're right... or are you.
No, you aren't. A CNR does not deal 480 raw dps. CN cruise + 2 damage mods (only fair, you're using AM multi + 2 damage mods on the pally) results in 537 DPS. Or, with resists, 295. However, throw in the tracking issues, optimal/falloff and missed hits that turrets suffer from, and the cnr is the far superior ship.
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d3vo
Amarr
The Core Doctrine
Covenant of Prophecy
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Posted - 2008.02.17 19:52:00 -
[5]
No, leave laser crystals as it is. After the base resistance reduction it should also effect the NPC too right? Plus, all the other turrets only do 2 different types of damage. All ships can use drones so that is out of the question. Caldari is special and need help so leave them out. Lasers are fine.
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Alex Shurk
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Posted - 2008.02.17 21:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: d3vo
After the base resistance reduction it should also effect the NPC too right?
No, why should it?
Quote:
Plus, all the other turrets only do 2 different types of damage.
Minmatar have all 4 damage types available to them.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.02.17 23:22:00 -
[7]
Every race need's flaws. Amarr are predictable damage types, high cap consumption and weak EW.
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Yuki Nagato
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.18 00:03:00 -
[8]
The best option for CCP would have been to make the Apoc a missile boat, like the Khandid ships. Obviously it would have had to do less damage than the Raven so the Raven stays the true battleship missile boat, but it would've added more versatility to the Amarr BS line. Helping the fitting on Tachyons would have also put Geddon at a slightly better footing against the Rokh, Megathron and Tempest.
Of course, now Amarr have the highest DPS long-range sniper with the new Apoc. Lowering the EM resist on armour also puts them at an advantage in fleets, because the increased DPS of Tachyons outweighs the 15% difference in EM, compared to 35/35 for Kin/Therm (the Rokh/Mega). The Geddon or Tachyons need some love in general, and maybe the Megathron does too, now with the new Apoc and the Rokh simply outclassing it in range and tracking. Perhaps nerfing large blaster tracking a little but then buffing the Mega's tracking bonus to 10%, so that it remains the DPS and tracking king over the Rokh while the Rokh retains it's high range advantage.
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d3vo
Amarr
The Core Doctrine
Covenant of Prophecy
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Posted - 2008.02.18 03:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Alex Shurk
Originally by: d3vo
After the base resistance reduction it should also effect the NPC too right?
No, why should it?
Quote:
Plus, all the other turrets only do 2 different types of damage.
Minmatar have all 4 damage types available to them.
Why should it? Cause all player ships base resistance will be reduced...so it SHOULD be the same for NPC ships.
Well not all 4 at the same time...but I see now.
I still think its fine the way it is. Crystals have a much better DPS than ammo.
If they were to change it (hypothetical), better to add kinetic damage to current crystals rather than making new crystals.
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El Mauru
Amarr
Nexus Analytics
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.18 03:48:00 -
[10]
amarr are alright for pve- they don`t use up ammo = more room for phat loot :-I
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Zanquis
Caldari
CSS Ltd.
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.02.18 05:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Draahkness
My humble suggestion would be to make abaddon a torpedo boat (to match the earler 'new' amarr). 5% to all armor resists, 10% to torpedo flight time and 8 launcher slots would be nice. Either that or a 100% thermal crystal + an exlosive crystal + a kinetic crystal.
Thank you.
I think your asking for way too much there! If you get a missile boat like that your taking the racial weapon of Caldari and making Amarr best at it in your battleship class. The raven only has 6 launcher slots, even with a 25% bonus to ROF at battleship 5 it will still not come close to the ship you propose.
I would say the key lies in your long range weaponry. There is no reason a longer range weapon which does lower damage should suffer from also being so hard to fit and so much less damage (as with all other races long range weaponry too). If they made these things slightly easier to fit (the best of the long range like Tacks should still be a struggle to fit) and use significantly less cap that would improve Amarr endurance which is also another important factor in PvE. In addition to this they can tweek the EM to thermal damage ratio too or lower the upper and lower end of rat resistances so that the magnitude of their strong or weak resist is not so drastic.
********************************************
CEO of CSS Ltd.
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Reckless Hope
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Posted - 2008.02.18 06:49:00 -
[12]
well you just don't have good skills as a amarr pilot. my other chara can kill 1.2m guristas in a AF. but not i mostly use a zealot for ratting guristas. train your skills past lvl 1, and get t2 guns they seem to be better.
Originally by: Draahkness
Big thumbs up for the amarr changes upcoming. With the ones anounced + the PG change anounced for later on amarr will become a viable option for pvp. Good job CCP.
Now the problem. One of the problems with amarr for pvp was always the inability to switch damage type, all other races has at least one bs that can choose damage. For pvp this is now less of a problem with the reduction in armor base EM resist, but what about PVE? There are 3 rouge factions weak to EM: drones, sansha and blood raiders. If your alliance lives anywhere else you cant rat properly/at all in an amarr ship. My own pulse lasers for example cant break the shield tank of a higher tier guristas bs. Not knowing the number I'm guessing they have approxematly 85-90% EM reist. Domi, phoon and raven can all switch ammo/drone types to match the lower resist on serpentis, guristas and angels. Armageddon cannot. Amarr could use some loving in the pve departement as well, when you get around to it.
My humble suggestion would be to make abaddon a torpedo boat (to match the earler 'new' amarr). 5% to all armor resists, 10% to torpedo flight time and 8 launcher slots would be nice. Either that or a 100% thermal crystal + an exlosive crystal + a kinetic crystal.
Thank you.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Alex Shurk
Guristas average 75% EM and 50% thermal.
75% sounds a little high, how do you get that figure?
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Jill Antaris
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:22:00 -
[14]
Well I use a Dual Trackingcomp Boosted Mega Puls Setup on my Navy Apoc. Remember this Ship has no Damage Boni but tears apart even Guristas/Angels in a aceptalbe Time(and my Gunnerys are still a bit crapy). Fit at least 2 Heat Sinks, and overcome high resists with high raw DPS. 
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Nerf Lasers!
Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit.
Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage.
O wait... they allready did... =( |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Alex Shurk
Guristas average 75% EM and 50% thermal.
75% sounds a little high, how do you get that figure?
http://npc.elfarto.com/view.php?id=23339
All guristas/pith ships bar the dire ones have 75/76 EM and 55/56 thermal.
He was actually overestimating the paladin's damage.
Oh and for the guy with tachyons, listing a hit on hull makes you look stupid.
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Draahkness
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.18 11:43:00 -
[16]
I dont feel that "train your skills" is really a valid argument. I dont know the numbers on resist, damage pr second etc by heart on different ships. I just know that this toon (my second char) has amarr bs 4, L energy turret 4, and 3's and 4's in the gunnery support skills and cant properly rat guristas while my fianceT who is 4 months old in EVE can easily rat in a domi with substancially lower skills. Killing rats is usually easy even with somewhat low combat skills, drones for example is no biggie in an arma, but as soon as you are forced to use EM against guristas, angels and serpentis (when all other races can switch damage types freely) you suffer. I think one (1) amarr bs with the option to choose damage types is not too much to ask. My abaddon idea from above was spur of the moment and perhaps a bit overpowered I dunno, but at least its an argument not just: "train your skills". If I had said "pod yourself without clone to get down to my dps on gurries in your domi" people would have stopped reading ya know.
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HEINZ ZERO
PsyCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.02.18 15:12:00 -
[17]
...try ratting Angels in an Amarr ship
average BS resistances:
...........EM.......EXP......Kin......Therm
Angel.....74,5%..44,7%..55,0%..64,5%
Blood.....44,7%..74,5%..64,5%..55,0%
Guristas.74,5%..64,5%..44,7%..55,0%
Sanshas.44,7%..74,5%..64,5%..55,0%
Serp......64,5%..74,5%..44,7%..55,0%
Average damage with Multifreq. L without drones(500 DPS)
Angel= 148 = 30% effect. Damage
Blood = 255 = 51% effect. Damage
Guristas= 168 = 34% effect. Damage
Sanshas = 255 =51% effect. Damage
Serp. = 197 = 39% effect. Damage
CCP should fix some NPC resistances to make PVE easier for some Races.
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Yargo Metash
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.18 20:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: HEINZ ZERO
Average damage with Multifreq. L without drones(500 DPS)
Angel= 148 = 30% effect. Damage
Blood = 255 = 51% effect. Damage
Guristas= 168 = 34% effect. Damage
Sanshas = 255 =51% effect. Damage
Serp. = 197 = 39% effect. Damage
CCP should fix some NPC resistances to make PVE easier for some Races.
Looks like you're doing fine with Blood/Sanshas and possibly Serps. Wish my damage chaning shield tanking butt could do that to them, while I take down Angels with ease.
For best results, stick to the pirate areas around your ships racial area.
As for Dropping Resists: The way Resistances are calculate, if you fit some sort of resist tank (I don't know why you wouldn't for PvE) you should come out marginally less effective than before.
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Law Enforcer
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.18 20:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Law Enforcer on 18/02/2008 20:39:16
the problem isn't the amount of damage but the damage type and range. most rats are still somewhat vulnerable to Thermal damage so close range ammo is fine.
the problem is long range ammo. the further the rat is away from your ship the more EM and less Thermal damage you do because of the crystal type.
while I can roast most Gurista battleships when they're around 30km because of the secondary Thermal damage if I get a Gurista battleship orbiting me at 80km it takes forever to kill because I'm shooting at it with Infared (20 EM 8 Thermal) crystals which do mostly EM damage.
to compound this already bad problem, the longer range crystals also nerf your overall DPS. so you're doing more EM damage againts rats whom have strong EM resists and less DPS.
this creates the problem.
I see two possible solutions:
1) modify the longer range T1 crystals to do a more even amounts of EM and Thermal damage.
2) Nerf EM resistance 18 percent on rats.
the problem with number one is you'll increase amarrs overall dps againts omni-tanks.
I don't see any problems with number two?
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Draahkness
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.19 12:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Yargo Metash
For best results, stick to the pirate areas around your ships racial area.
Again youre not reading my posting.
Domi switch to Wasps to kill gurries, switch to Preators to kill sanshas
Raven switch to Wrath to kill gurries, switch to Paradise to kill sanshas
Phoon switch to Titanium sabot and Wrath to kill gurries, switch to EMP and Paradise to kill sanshas
Arma switch to ??? to kill gurries, angels or serpentis?
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.02.19 13:04:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 19/02/2008 13:05:26
Originally by: Draahkness
Originally by: Yargo Metash
For best results, stick to the pirate areas around your ships racial area.
Again youre not reading my posting.
Domi switch to Wasps to kill gurries, switch to Preators to kill sanshas
Raven switch to Wrath to kill gurries, switch to Paradise to kill sanshas
Phoon switch to Titanium sabot and Wrath to kill gurries, switch to EMP and Paradise to kill sanshas
Arma switch to ??? to kill gurries, angels or serpentis?
They switch to projectile weapons  .
Most Amarr ships can have a wave of complementory drones, but the main advantage is the sustained damage Amarr can deal, due to no reloads. Yes, Amarr don't have as much versatillity as the other races, and it should stay so for the sake of game flavor. If you fly a Megathron, it to will have a hard time killing Sansha, if it's load of heavy drones are all kinetic or explosive.
EDIT: I would really hate a missile Apoc or drone Apoc. I also dislike the Khanid ships, but it's more acceptable story wise, as Khanid are the black sheeps of Amarr.
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La5eR
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Posted - 2008.02.19 17:32:00 -
[22]
Hey folks, the changes are nice and all but I dont get it why people always complain about the amarr ships not doing good damage to non-em/therm resistant NPC's. I can kill ANY spawn in the game with a properly fitted arbitrator and the proper drone type. It takes me a full minute if that to tear down a DG Usurper with my 20M isk setup. If you keep your drones in check your race/ship type doesnt matter.
There also is the added feature of turret hardpoints not being solely dedicated to laser/proj/hyb. You can use what ever you like on any ship. The bonuses just wont be taken into affect.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.19 17:42:00 -
[23]
I kill any rat I want in an absolution, can't an amarr BS deal the same damage at longer range?
I can say I'm killing those things very well with the absolution :
-serpentis
-angels (with easy tanking thanks to T2 resists, the damage is sometimes a bit low with 4 turret zealot, but it's fixed already)
-Blood raiders & sanshas (cutting them in parts)
-Mercenaries (bring a true T2 amarr omnitank and see how easy lasers cut them)
-Mordus (at range with a zealot half speed half armor tanking the missiles)
So, is the bad part about guristas (never meet them in gallente missions), EoM (as a few of the mwd autorized missions, I'm having fun with a deimos there), others?
Might it be mainly a guristas issue?
--
Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
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