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Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.19 02:04:00 -
[1]
I've had a few thoughts recently that have transformed my thinking of several things pertaining dreadnoughts and their uses in fleets, and together. But now I will submit the thoughts to the scrutiny of the public.
First; I believe the greatest advantage of a Dreadnought is its Alpha damage, why? Because let's say your dread does 2x dps and your opponent does 1.5x dps tank. Eventually (it will take some time) the dread will get the opponent down to a level of hp where the alpha damage simply destroys the enemy in one hit. Removing 30/40seconds of combat time. Now that's no tremendously advantageous against another ship (and most capitals can out-tank the DPS of a single dreadnought for some time before the tank is unsustainable).
Basically though you save cycles where you define the actions in a game as cycles, and having one less cycle due to a very high Alpha strike - is advantageous.
Concerning smaller class ships, an Alpha strike may very well destroy your opponents' ship in one hit regardless of their build.
So now a few things are in consideration:
Alpah Strike (not DPS)
Tank (shield recharge rate, cap sustainability, and boosters)
Sensor Strength (the Citadel Torp can be effective well over 100km: Other missiles will also be considered).
Webbing//Disrupting (need to slow them down and prevent escapees)
Target Painting (Crucial Damage modifier)
These things I think sum-up the considerations for a shift in deployment of the Dreadnought. So now that I've introduced everything; my hypothesis:
The Dreadnought can be used effectively more than as a support ship but as the king of the battlefield (true of artillery today), by reassessing the fittings and use of drones for the Dreadnoughts.
It can be said of artillery that it is the "king of the battlefield" and though one may out-weigh the advantages against say a Tank, which is mobile and armored artillery but lighter guns, or infantry, which is versatile and has a number of uses, history has shown that the proper application of artillery will dominate any battlefield, whether it is the defense of large areas by fire-bases, the destruction of forces through mobility and steel-on-target, or eliminating an enemy's armored advantages by precision hits against armor (Tanks) and today, its anti-aircraft potency....
My point with this real world example is that the Dreadnoughts are being misused (POS sieges...seems to be the feelings of every Dread pilot).
How is this over-come?
Well since I've familiarized myself with the Phoenix I'll discuss it alone...
Since tanking is talked to death I'll consider increasing the Alpha Strike and targeting abilities of the ship.
With 7 medium slots this is accomplished in several ways and I'm not sure what the best way is yet.
Signal amps, and boosters, target painters, webifiers, and drones all go into the consideration of effectively making the dreadnought a frigate murderer. (Maybe a good exaggeration but none-the-less).
Using Missiles/Torpedoes one needs to:
Increase explosion velocity
Decrease enemy's velocity
Increase enemy's Signature radius
Increase Damage modifiers
Increase max-velocity of missile/torpedo
Considering that a number of powerful alliances have moved into blob tactics, we cannot confine ourselves to the idea that Citadel Launchers are the must....
A buddy system may be considered - remembering that the first rule of a Capital ship should be max-tank - and so one Dreadnought may go citadel launchers another a lower launcher variety. (Sacriledge?)
Regardless, we want to imagine that we can maximize the citadel launcher's usefulness.
Without siege-mode the Cit-Torp can damage ships moving slower than 200m/s.
A fitted target painter, webifier, and the use of 5 drones (say 2 webbers and 3 painters) could bring the ship to a low enough speed and high enough signature that the Dreadnought can damage the BS or less class of ships. Con't
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Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.19 02:27:00 -
[2]
Continued from above
Drones are a key that most ignore. When discussing Dreadnoughts most go for DPS and the Moros or the Naglfar wins that argument. But they ignore the plethora of EW drones.
Electronic warfare is a Dreadnought strength oft ignored; probably because it largely takes away from other things deemed important, such as tanking. But EW drones take away from none of this. And in the Pheonix it's greatest advantage is it does not need to rely upon target tracking modules etc. but can just rely upon webbing drones and target painting drones to bring a small frig or more rather...a battle cruiser or such - to the signature radius and speed of the battleships which have every right to fear the Phoenix.
So now let's consider range:
The problem is that the use of modules is out-ranged by the Citadel Torpedo (theoretically if my calculations are correct, a max range of 150km).
Even were you to sacrifice siege mode for a Drone Augmentor(SP?) which extends drone range by 20km, you would only have a drone range of 85km? That's a start?
Disadvantages are that drones will die, but being at 85km is still out of range of most smaller ships.
Working in teams you can theoretically prevent the smaller ships from targeting your drones anyway especially if in larger fleets you use allies to your advantage by having them blast areas with Sensor jamming....breaking their targeting of your drones.
This more or less begins to shape the transformation of the Dreadnought from a hulking POS slammer to a versatile destroyer of souls.
Shield Tanking
The problem going through everyone's mind is well here are gains, what are the losses? Anything gained in weaponry loses in tanking so let us consider what we will do about this...
First; passive tanking has to be considered. Thus what's more advantageous for this?
You can either extend your shields (extenders, rigs, etc. to max hp) or you can reduce your recharge rate (both effectively reduces your recharge rate in different ways).
From my very rudimentary calculations I've come to consider that max hp does not surpass lowest recharge rate though in actuality they get very close...(I got a weight of 30ish to a weight of 49ish in my calculations).
Active tanking and resists are the other two factors.
Shield boost with booster amps? Passive resists or active resists?
Two shield boosters and two amps with CCC rigs leaves 3 medium slots open...fill the low slots with Shield relays?
I haven't worked out all the math to recreate the tank for this build but I've had a general idea that loses consideration for resistances (that extra module for another 10% resistance equals only 3,000 Alpha damage from other dreadnoughts or about 300dps, or 680dps from other Phoenix's considering max damage...)
To me, the idea of active tank with strong passive tank (all about recharge rate and booster rates) is better than also increasing the resistances too much...good resistances are acceptable but when you are blobbed by 20+ battleships/cruisers you'll wish you could instant kill them rather than slowly die with your 80%+ resistances.
So when considering the webber/sig amp or target painter...sacrifice shield res.
You can work 2 Boosts, 2 amp and a number of shield relays with enough room to spare to fit target painter/webber/warp disruptor (just saying...hah...consider an active EM shield and passive multi spectrum shield for better tank and sacrifice the webber and target painter since you have drones for those).
You can use shield recharge rigs...and with max skills, max shield relays and max shield rigs you are recharging your shields on average over 50dps or....at the height of shield recharge rate...well in the hundreds/dps.
This is NOT using your boosters...so that is cap sustainable (obviously).
[b]Continued next: The Alpha Strike - Putting it all together
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Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.19 02:39:00 -
[3]
So I've given a rough outline of the strategy change.
What's different? Given up a little tank mainly through resistances in order to use sensor booster or target painter, etc.
Given up damage drones instead for EW drones.
Given up capacitor rigs for Shield rate rigs.
Ultimately the question becomes...where does it get us? Why the Phoenix?
The Alpha strike.
Not only does the Phoenix's Alpha Strike in general out-weigh other ships by 3 times...but it beats the Moros in that the majority (95%) of the Alpha Strike comes from torpedoes.
Approximately 1/3rd of the Moros' damage comes from drones, so you cannot sacrifice drones for EW drones without losing substantial punch.
Now I've shown how you can maintain a nearly full tank (over kill tank actually, that blows your cap after minutes...but that's besides the point) with this current revision.
The fact is you can rework your sustainability to lose very very little tank (the Phoenix tank works from an over kill of 12,000+/dps down to a more sustainable 7,200/dps while the dmg out-put by the Thanatos is about 1,800dps).
So you can see that the tank of a dreadnought is by itself over-kill...and sustainable...therefore in a fight against only numbers of capital ships or other dreadnoughts does the tank need to be so bloated...therefore the greatest threat to the dreadnought is the battleship or less class of ships....
Why?
Because most dreadnoughts cannot hit them!
So how do we put it all together.
First we do want to keep the tank rather high...which is for the Phoenix easier...because shield tanking adds to dps without consuming a lot of actively used capacitor use...and torpedoes etc. do not use too much in the way of capacitor.
So - by far the easiest to accomplish this is the Phoenix.
At the same time we consider 2 Citadel Torps and a Heavy Missile Launcher...or a Dread fitted to buddy with a Cap dread...and this dread would run 3 Heavy Missile Launchers and simply *****non-Capital ships through siege mode.
But with the target painting, the sensor dampening, etc. a Citadel torp will more or less Alpha kill non-Capital ships.
And therefore the problems are more or less solved.
They are solved by giving up reliance upon damage drones, giving up reliance upon over-kill tanking.
You should not be building the Dreadnought to outlast another 3 dreadnoughts pouring their guns on to you...you should be building your Dreadnought to 1v1 another Dreadnought - and using all that extra module space to fit the basic needs that will allow you to *****non-Capital ships.
This removes the Dreadnought from the simplistic "POS siege" mode...and enters the Dreadnought into an entirely new class of warfare.
It can hammer Capitals into dust, and it can instantly kill non-Capitals.
Now it's the time to debate the particularities of the fitting and drone requirements to make this happen.
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Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.19 02:52:00 -
[4]
Considerations: I have given a LOT of replies to think about but here are MY considerations.
Max damage is a progressive trait while max resistances are a regressive trait (5% is more the next time it is applied to damage while less the next time it is applied to resistance).
The usefulness of both is that you can peak-resistance an enemy's damage and tank them...or you can increase your alpha strike and destroy them very quickly...with capital ships...it's both.
Your dps must be greater than their tank, your tank must be greater than their dps, and/or your cap needs to out-last their cap.
I have not yet crunched the numbers enough to say whether or not target painting a cap matters much in the long run I'd assume it doesn't but - what does matter is that if a capital ship is in siege mode it can barely hit you, and if it is moving, you can slow it down significantly...and if you are in siege mode it will be about the target painting...who increases the damage the most...
I've seen builds that are shield reps with max active-hardeners...what are the people trying to accomplish?
This means that you are relying upon the Dreadnought's naturally powerful hit to do the killing...
Would you rather have an over-kill tank (no one ever will kill you?) or would you rather have an over-kill missile...or rail gun...or laser?
Think about it in terms of waste.
What is more wasteful?
Tank...?
Or Killing power?
Tank by far is more wasteful - the most excellent tank is that tank that is 0.0000000001% more effective than all your enemy's fire-power.
But that is not true for your fire power...your most effective fire power is that fire power that is infinitely better than your enemy's.
Therefore tank's are regressive, damage is progressive (one approaches 0, one approaches infinity).
But for the longest time the entire Capital ship strategy has been to maximize your tanking ability...why?
Consider that....
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easei
Energy.
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Posted - 2008.02.19 03:08:00 -
[5]
This must be flamebait. 
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Hardtail
Red Dawn Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.19 03:19:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
Signal amps, and boosters, target painters, webifiers, and drones all go into the consideration of effectively making the dreadnought a frigate murderer. (Maybe a good exaggeration but none-the-less).
Quote:
making the dreadnought a frigate murderer.
Quote:
dreadnought frigate murderer.
Quote:
Dreadnought murderer
^^^^^
you
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Heimdal Mid
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Posted - 2008.02.19 03:30:00 -
[7]
TL;DR
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Don Juanito
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Posted - 2008.02.19 03:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hardtail
Quote:
Signal amps, and boosters, target painters, webifiers, and drones all go into the consideration of effectively making the dreadnought a frigate murderer. (Maybe a good exaggeration but none-the-less).
Quote:
making the dreadnought a frigate murderer.
Quote:
dreadnought frigate murderer.
Quote:
Dreadnought murderer
^^^^^
you
i see what you did there.
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Batelle
HOMELESS.
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Posted - 2008.02.19 04:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: easei
This must be flamebait.
this
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Lithalnas
Amarr
Headcrabs
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Posted - 2008.02.19 04:44:00 -
[10]
well it was a nice try... but he is right that if you have a fleet lock down a target with a dozen webs and a dozen painters you can one shot a BS. Or you could just have your fleet kill it before the dread actually finishes locking.
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fixed for greater eve content |
Phoenicia
Black Sea Industries
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.19 06:48:00 -
[11]
Phoenix. Standard loadout. Rapier/Huginn friend. -1 Web, +1 Painter.
Done.
Are you a friend of Siigari's?
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Susa Ou
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Posted - 2008.02.19 06:49:00 -
[12]
Get a Moros if you want to do something like that. Moros for killing stuff and decent POS takedown, Revelation for POS takedown. Everything else is second to those two.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.19 07:44:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 19/02/2008 07:45:06
Originally by: Phoenicia
Phoenix. Standard loadout. Rapier/Huginn friend. -1 Web, +1 Painter.
Done.
Are you a friend of Siigari's?
Except it doesnt really work all that well anymore. Siege mode=40+ seconds to lock a bs, and only 2 targets.
As for the OP, pretty sure its tarminic.
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Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.19 08:54:00 -
[14]
oh man.... 
OP is living in fairy lollipop land
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.02.19 09:29:00 -
[15]
ok so i'm in work and got half way through the second post and not once did i see mention of "uber frig gang speeding around webbing and target painting ebil targets" which would free up ALL the mids for tanking making uber tank with lows full of damage mods or some stuff....
anyone told the op that you're alowed to use other ships in support while you're flying a dread?
hell it's not like a dread can go very fast when it's in seige mode anyway and not being in seige mode is silly.
that's alot of stuff to be said about having a dread for solo work though
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Wideen
Eon Project
Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.02.19 11:38:00 -
[16]
if you wanna murder frigates then get an AF or a destroyer; cheaper and much more efficient.
btw, I lol'd at the "dreadnought murder" quotes above 
Originally by: F'nog
Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.02.19 11:43:00 -
[17]
The day a Phoenix takes on a frigate gang and wins (i.e. scares them off/kills them instead of just tanking), I will enter the Alliance tournament as a 1 man team. Flying a Phoenix.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today! |
Wideen
Eon Project
Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.02.19 11:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mitsui Takatoshi
Continued from above
Drones are a key that most ignore. When discussing Dreadnoughts most go for DPS and the Moros or the Naglfar wins that argument. But they ignore the plethora of EW drones.
and seriously, what? and what about the Rev?
Originally by: F'nog
Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.02.19 12:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
The day a Phoenix takes on a frigate gang and wins (i.e. scares them off/kills them instead of just tanking), I will enter the Alliance tournament as a 1 man team. Flying a Phoenix.
4 officer smart bombs would do the trick i think
see you in the alliance tornsmrnt
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Liam Fremen
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Deus Ex.
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Posted - 2008.02.19 12:52:00 -
[20]
Just 1 trick with phoenix:
When some ****** bring a bs fleet near ur stat, undock the phoenix and have some rapiers cloacked, then just coordinate between them, rapier multipleweb+paint, phoenix shoot 1 volley, bs gone.
Repeat until u are tired or ur enemies are tired.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.02.19 13:09:00 -
[21]
rofl, I had nothing to do with this post, and while drones need love, just lol @ this thread.
If your drones are 85km out consider them screwed.
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