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Whip Slagcheek
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Posted - 2008.02.21 04:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Whip Slagcheek on 21/02/2008 04:26:46
Picture of manufacturing waste
I have not been keeping up with the changes to manufacturing waste. Did CCP say they were going to address the reverse economies of scale due to waste calculations or is this something we need to adapt to?
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Hohne
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 05:13:00 -
[2]
They are doing in 2 parts what they should have done in one. First bit was to round after multiplying by the number of runs (before it rounded before). They do plan to change it so that it always rounds up in a future patch, which will mean that producing more will result in less waste.
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Jameroz
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.02.21 05:13:00 -
[3]
They're going to change it so that all waste will be rounded up. This will mean that mass production will often use less material than doing single run.
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notaway
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.24 13:40:00 -
[4]
See now I don't get this cause pre-trinity I had production efficiency at lvl 5 and so was "Perfect" and if the bpo or bpc was researched to the proper level, I never had any wastage for T1 ships or rigs..I was never certain as to what the Mass Production skill was for but thought that had to do with the allowed number of runs per job and so trained that also...So has Trinity somehow changed one or the other? Or are u saying that for those who don't have perfect prod skills will now have less wastage if they simply produce more? And is that based upon prod eff or bpo research or both...
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William Ortega
Grave Diggers
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.24 22:04:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: notaway
See now I don't get this cause pre-trinity I had production efficiency at lvl 5 and so was "Perfect" and if the bpo or bpc was researched to the proper level, I never had any wastage for T1 ships or rigs..I was never certain as to what the Mass Production skill was for but thought that had to do with the allowed number of runs per job and so trained that also...So has Trinity somehow changed one or the other? Or are u saying that for those who don't have perfect prod skills will now have less wastage if they simply produce more? And is that based upon prod eff or bpo research or both...
A bit of a confusion on your part. When they said "mass production" they did not mean the EvE skill (which does indeed allow you to run more jobs and that is all), but rather they meant "mass producing" more than one item per job.
As it is right now, you are penalized (of sorts) for producing items en masse. For example, you have a BPO with 0.9% waste (ME = 10), and to produce this item you need one "widget". If you set up a job with just one run (produce 1 item) it will cost you exactly 1 widget to produce your item. If you setup a job to make 1000 units of your item, all of the sudden you need 1009 widgets.
This discrepancy will be addressed (supposedly) in the next static trinity patch. Until then we just have to suck it up.
-Willy |
Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.24 22:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Admiral Nova on 24/02/2008 22:38:57
Since trinity perfect ME = pre-trinity perfect ME x the number of runs you do at once. So at the moment, the more you do the LESS efficient it is, which obviously makes no sense, so they are planning to change it so that it always rounds up. Which will basically mean that there will never be production with no waste ever again. (although producing larger runs with better ME will then result in lower waste).
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Zubb Ionesco
Audentia et Artis
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Posted - 2008.02.24 23:01:00 -
[7]
mh, there is no "perfect" ME. ME research is a function with approaches zero but never reaches zero. That picture is a Polycarbon Engine Housing which is researched to about 25 ME. If you look at it, you will see that the wastage factor is still 0.4x%. So when you produce only one piece of Polycarb, you actually would need 100.4 Trit Bars, but its rounded down to 100.
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Never knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run! Death hates that. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.24 23:23:00 -
[8]
Let's say you have a blueprint that at ME0 needs 110 of something (waste 10%).
Now, you research it to a high enough level so the waste drops to, let's say 0.333%
BEFORE Trinity:
build 1 item -> 100.333 needed -> rounded to 100 needed to build
build 100 items -> individual rounding gave 100 * 100 units = 10000 needed to build
build via 100 jobs or one single job with 100 runs, same thing
AFTER Trinity:
build 1 item -> 100.333 needed -> rounded to 100 needed to build
build 100 items -> 100.333 * 100 = 10033.3 needed -> rounded to 10033 needed to build
building via 100 single-unit jobs saves you 33 units of material compared to a single 100-run job
AFTER the next presumed patch:
build 1 item -> 100.333 needed -> rounded to 101 needed to build
build 100 items -> 100.333 * 100 = 10033.3 needed -> rounded to 10034 needed to build
building via 100 single-unit jobs wastes 66 units more compared to a single 100-run job
1|2|3|4|5. |
Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.24 23:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zubb Ionesco
you actually would need 100.4 Trit Bars, but its rounded down to 100.
Exactly, people's idea of perfect was when waste was less than one unit. Now, since it rounds after multiplying the number of runs, you can't get that no waste after rounding unless you have more ME (for each run). Soon it will round that .4 up to 1, so it will require 101 units for 1, 201 units for 2 etc. Thus bringing an economy of scale again. (which at the moment is reversed since it is cheaper to build 2 units individually than both at once (since the .8 rounds up and the .4 rounds down.
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notaway
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.25 11:15:00 -
[10]
Well I guess I have no problem with the current method then since I only build for myself and only do multiple runs for ammo and even those at like 5 runs. I guess that is why I never saw the increased wastage on mass production and only saw wastage where the bpc did not have a high enough ME to avoid waste.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2008.02.25 21:20:00 -
[11]
see comments and discussion here. We will be fixing this in the near future to make sure waste is realised at all batch sizes ensuring mass production is more efficient.
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Burchov
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.25 21:24:00 -
[12]
Will there be a way to see in advance how much an item exactly costs to build? Both the database exports and the showinfo window ingame only show whole numbers for single runs, which means that we're still not able to calculate the needed materials exactly.
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notaway
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.29 00:23:00 -
[13]
Well if ccp is going to fix it in "near future" I guess I should build as many of my single ship bpc's as possible now (but then I remember Fast Talk and how long it took to fix that--lol)
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Beness
Deep Space Ventures
Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2008.03.04 02:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: notaway
Edited by: notaway on 29/02/2008 00:26:46
Well if ccp is going to fix it in "near future" I guess I should build as many of my single ship bpc's as possible now (but then I remember Fast Talk/Tactical Shield Manipulation and how long it took to fix those--lol)
It's really rigs that this has a serious impact on - and possibly T2 builds. With battleships and the likes, an extra unit of zydrine isn't exactly going to break the bank.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.03.04 02:43:00 -
[15]
Quote:
It's really rigs that this has a serious impact on - and possibly T2 builds. With battleships and the likes, an extra unit of zydrine isn't exactly going to break the bank.
It's got a massive impact on T2 Components, thats for sure.
Improve Market Competition! |
Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
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Posted - 2008.03.04 03:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
It's got a massive impact on T2 Components, thats for sure.
No, it doesn't.
Assuming you research your BPOs to ME20 (which doesn't take long at all), you are talking about some 0.5% waste. If you are building components for 10% profit that means you are losing 5% of your total profits by that change. Noticeable - yes, "massive" - hardly.
If you build components with at least 20% profit, which makes much more sense anyway, then you only lose 2.5% of the total profits at most.
ME40 halves the above losses once again (so 1.25% less profits in the case of 20% markup), which makes the discussion all but moot.
Of course if you only make like 2-3% profit on a certain item, then the extra loss incurred by building big batches can be quite noticeable, but I think in that case the more important question is why you are still building that item and not when the devs will fix the discrepancies. 
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Gridwalker
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.03.07 23:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Corporati Capitalis
Of course if you only make like 2-3% profit on a certain item, then the extra loss incurred by building big batches can be quite noticeable, but I think in that case the more important question is why you are still building that item and not when the devs will fix the discrepancies.
QFT!
-Grid
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