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Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1637
   |
Posted - 2012.02.17 12:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having just had the "pleasure" of setting up a 5 planet PI network, I have been reflecting upon what simple changes could be made to make this process less onerous.
While I'm sure ideas like this have been suggested before (let me know so I can properly credit them), I thought I'd write them down and see what support they generated; if it's sufficient, I'll write up a CSM proposal and start bri... er, lobbying the devs. Your CSM tax ISK at work, etc., etc.
Semi-Automatic Route Specification
A major headache with setting up PI networks is all the manual routing that players must contend with, in particular when dealing with complex systems with multiple warehouses, spaceports, and processors. The current system results in a massive, repetitive clickfest.
A simple solution would be to introduce semi-automatic route specification that automates the routing of the most common (container->processor->container) setups.
This would involve adding the following command buttons and menu options:
On containers (spaceports, command centers, and storage facilities):
* A "Flag/Unflag as Source" button. This would flag the unit as a place where source materials can be expected to be found. More than one unit can be flagged as a Source.
* A "Flag/Unflag as Destination" button. This would flag the unit as the destination for manufactured products. Only one storage unit can be flagged as the destination.
On processors:
* An "Auto-Route" button. This would clear all current routes, then set the destination to the current Destination and create routes for all currently needed source materials from the current Sources. So if you were producing Polyamarids, and had 3 spaceports set as Sources and one of them set as the Destination, it would route the Polyamarids to the destination and create routes from all 3 spaceports to the unit for both Oxidizing Compounds and Industrial Fibers.
On the planet right-click menu, in a Routing submenu:
* Clear all Sources
* Clear Destination
* Auto-Route All Processors - performs the auto routing on all the processors.
Note that all of this work gets done in the client -- no changes to how PI works on the server; it just mindlessly automates the current mindless clickfest. If it runs out of link bandwidth, it'll just stop and complain.
This will not be the solution to all PI setup issues (in particular the tricky unbuffered ones) but I think it'll help with the common cases. Instead of dozens of clicks and mouse moves, you just have one.
Special Bonus Timesaver
Add a "Set default schematic" option to the planet right-click menu (maybe with sub-menus for basic, advanced, high-tech schematics). Then when new processors are created, they automatically get set to that schematic.
Re-Elect Trebor to the CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism!
My CSM Blog |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
37
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 13:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
... can you add a "routing summary" panel to that idea. Something that looks like visio or whatever. Then you could see the whole network and tweak things, rather than having to go to each pin in turn. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1639
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 13:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kata Amentis wrote:... can you add a "routing summary" panel to that idea. Something that looks like visio or whatever. Then you could see the whole network and tweak things, rather than having to go to each pin in turn.
That would be useful, indeed.
The tradeoff is that I was deliberately trying to prune down the proposal to the absolute minimum needed to get the job done, in particular visible changes to the UI. I'd be happy with being able to do this with right-click menus if that was easier than new buttons. The cheaper the cost, the more likely it'll get picked up and implemented.
If other people really support it, I'll add it as an option.
Re-Elect Trebor to the CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism!
My CSM Blog |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
Black Thorne Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 14:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Another simple improvement - allow for easier creating of links.
Right now to make a link:
1) Under the build menu click on create link
2) Select origin of link
3) Select destination of link
Go back to point 1
Given that when setting up a colony it is very rare to make a single link, it would be really great if it could go back to point 2 instead of having to go back to point 1 - this saves on the clickety fest. When you are done creating links you just click the thing again and voila, you are done. |
LordAssasin
Tz Industries
BadFellas.
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 14:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hello,
I am a Pi player oriented myself. A simple and very time effective thing to do to pi is this:
- have a sort of select all function, that will select the option from one item for all--->very good for 19 advanced factories when doing mechanical parts for example.
- have a form of option (hold ctrl let's say) while putting down 19 advanced factories one after another,(4 on each branch [thx for the uplift in m3 taken on one branch)] and not go and select them again and place -->select and place like is now.
- And about interconnecting them it should be done automatically, you only selecting from where is coming and where is going.
And again doing so with a sort of shift command to select for all an input, and select for one a exit.
Or even better REPLACE them altogether, and put a single big plant that would have the option of having multiple 1 type factories inside, and what goes for one factory goes for all. We have seen it for the extractor why not for basic/advance/elite industrial building as well.
I my opinion the skill of the PI wold be the hot spot searching, constant care of the colony, and all the fine details of obtaining, max yield..not ripping an building from scratch the hole system.
OK let's see if somebody else is in agreement.
Click here:) is funny.Now who is with me:) |
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
20
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Posted - 2012.02.17 14:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Personally I would rather CCP didn't touch PI again except for the introduction of new lines for trading with Dust 514 mercs. After introducing depletion with more clickfest then bringing exorbitant PI tax rates to the high sec community I dread to think what a third intervention would bring!
As you are on the CSM I suggest you direct CCPs attention to something like the Corporation interface/roles and the way they interact with running POSes. That is a subject that needs a serious amount of tender loving care. |
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
43
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 15:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
I only want a SAVE button like we have for ship fitting. And give us the ability to select more than 1 processor when editing schematics, outputs, inputs.
"I donGÇÖt know everything, I just know what I know." |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1643
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 16:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Celgar Thurn wrote:As you are on the CSM I suggest you direct CCPs attention to something like the Corporation interface/roles and the way they interact with running POSes. That is a subject that needs a serious amount of tender loving care.
Corp interfaces certainly need some love, but that's a big project and it would almost certainly get addressed either in conjunction with a POS revamp or subsequent to that. I suspect that POS revamps are high on the priority list for the Winter 2012 expansion, so that's the most likely timeframe.
My point with the initial proposal was to suggest a fix to a PI usability issue that was simple, easy to implement, and would require the minimum amount of "touching" of the existing code -- because that is the kind of proposal that can get picked up and wedged into some spare time in the development process.
Re-Elect Trebor to the CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism!
My CSM Blog |
Substantia Nigra
NFI industrial
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
532
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 18:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
As a PI-operator-hater I would welcome any change that serves to reduce click numbers. I like the general idea, I like making stuff and supplementing income with PI, but it is an awful click-fest without much thought given to usability aspects of design ... nice visuals tho.
One suggestion that keeps getting thrown up, and would (IMO) be fantastic, is simply being able to select groups of similar facilities (notably processors) and setup the same activity within the group ... rather than one at a time.
Similarly being able to direct a resource from storage to a group of processors, as a group rather than one at a time.
the obvious tool is ctrl-click within the various menus or on the main screen graphic, but it'd reduce setup and change clicks bigtime.
We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
15
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 20:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
A (configurable) warning for when, on your 14th planet, you've forgotten to route the output of a critical extractor/factory to your storage/LP, thus throwing your entire production chain a-skew... that'd be nice.
Dunno how many times I've returned to a planet a few days later, only to realize the extractor I carefully planted on a hot-spot has been happily extracting shedloads of precious metals -- and simply dumping them onto the ground -- because I missed a click. |
Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
55
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Posted - 2012.02.17 20:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:Another simple improvement - allow for easier creating of links.
Right now to make a link:
1) Under the build menu click on create link
2) Select origin of link
3) Select destination of link
Go back to point 1
Given that when setting up a colony it is very rare to make a single link, it would be really great if it could go back to point 2 instead of having to go back to point 1 - this saves on the clickety fest. When you are done creating links you just click the thing again and voila, you are done.
There's kind of a shortcut way of doing this. If you start at 2) and click on one of the points while holding down ctrl, you can then click on the second point to be linked and the link will be created. |
Katja Norolyev
State War Academy
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 12:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:A (configurable) warning for when, on your 14th planet, you've forgotten to route the output of a critical extractor/factory to your storage/LP, thus throwing your entire production chain a-skew... that'd be nice.
Dunno how many times I've returned to a planet a few days later, only to realize the extractor I carefully planted on a hot-spot has been happily extracting shedloads of precious metals -- and simply dumping them onto the ground -- because I missed a click.
Seconded, assuming that the functionality is not limited to your 14th planet. 
Really, it should have been obvious to add a safety notifying you that "You're about to suck the land dry and hurl the product into another dimension. Seriously, exactly zero good can come of this. Are you sure you wish to proceed?"
Also, some sort of log would be nice, so you can check if your storage nodes are overflowing their capacity at some point during your program without you having to log in once every 1/2/4 etc hours and check them like some sort of OCD paranoid spreadsheet addict. Not that I would know anything about that.
Also, adjustable font sizes on the PI UI? Pretty please with cherries on top? my vision is 20/20, I shouldn't have to get within 4 feet of my 58" monitor to read the output/hr ratios.
There's more, but I haven't rebuilt a colony in so long that I can't remember it right now. |
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.02.20 20:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
So I recently set up a world to produce P4s from P1s and P2s. After setting up and routing about 25 facilities worth of stuff, I logged off expecting to see good stuff in the morning. I realized that originally I had a second space port that I'd deleted because of PG limitations. The output had been originally routed to it, so instead... I got burned about 10m in materials to end up with nothing.
Heck, even some sort of visual indicator that your facilities aren't routed would be nice. And no, clicking each one in turn and then clicking again isn't a viable answer for a 25 facility setup.  |
Alain Kinsella
96
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Posted - 2012.02.21 01:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Katja Norolyev wrote:Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:A (configurable) warning for when, on your 14th planet, you've forgotten to route the output of a critical extractor/factory to your storage/LP, thus throwing your entire production chain a-skew... that'd be nice.
Dunno how many times I've returned to a planet a few days later, only to realize the extractor I carefully planted on a hot-spot has been happily extracting shedloads of precious metals -- and simply dumping them onto the ground -- because I missed a click. Seconded, assuming that the functionality is not limited to your 14th planet. Really, it should have been obvious to add a safety notifying you that "You're about to suck the land dry and hurl the product into another dimension. Seriously, exactly zero good can come of this. Are you sure you wish to proceed?" Also, some sort of log would be nice, so you can check if your storage nodes are overflowing their capacity at some point during your program without you having to log in once every 1/2/4 etc hours and check them like some sort of OCD paranoid spreadsheet addict. Not that I would know anything about that. [--SNIP--]
Adding a simple API interface for PI would be enough. Planet list for the basic query, details on each PIN's status for specific planet query (probably in an XML or similar that would be computer-parsable).
@ Trebor - +1, yes please.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Polgara
Galactic Defence Initiative
Fade 2 Black
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 03:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think grouping them could be helpful or create a few new building types,
Custom Factory GÇô Place it down and it uses no CPU or PW. Give it an interface like the Command station, Upgrade it to take a max number of factoryGÇÖs based on the max level of the Command Station. CPU and PW are then calculated based on how many factoryGÇÖs are GÇ£insideGÇ¥ make it a bigger node if needed. Then routing goods to and from it become easier.
Command Station upgrade GÇô Add on to the command station upgrade building that increases the CPU OR PG, have it use CPU to create PG or PG to create CPU. Just like getting new servers would user more power or getting new generators would user up monitoring resources. < maybe best on the ideas page.. limit is 1 per planet.
A warning message about missing routes would be nice, and better visual representation of building routings. Pale yellow ghosting behind the buildings is hard to see on some planets. Ability to choose to not have the holographic building appear would help those that have a cluttered setup.
The Idea or Source and Destination would been cool if you could have both options on the one container. |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
82
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 05:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Some great suggestions here :) anything to reduce the clickfest is good.
atm I run 1 char producing pos fuels for me, and 3 chars P2-P3 producing Coolant for the market out of P2, they run 2x12 'factories' per planet, with 2 spaceports. One annoyance is when I load each one up every day, I've got to empty the spaceport first before I transfer from the CO to it as there isn't enough room in the spaceport for the incoming until the stuff there is moved out. So more clicking, more waiting for the timer 
Can this be tweaked so it allows a bi-directional transfer so it moves the stuff from the spaceport to CO 1st then the CO to spaceport instead of the other way round. That way it would reduce the clicks considerably.
Sounds a little confusing I know, but there's no other way I can explain it, especially at 6 in the morning without coffee  |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1670
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 12:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
The ideas for reducing clickfest have merit; the ideas for new pins are a bit out of scope.
Keep them coming, there is enough here for a tight PI proposal.
Re-Elect Trebor to the CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism!
My CSM Blog |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
15
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 00:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:
Adding a simple API interface for PI would be enough. Planet list for the basic query, details on each PIN's status for specific planet query (probably in an XML or similar that would be computer-parsable).
This would be very cool. |
Daracon Rage
Jaynes Raiders
Malcoms Brown Coat Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 03:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
I just want to be able to reset my damn extractors without there being a delay "oh the coms network is busy please wait 9 seconds"....
LOL I suppose I shouldn't complain about 9 seconds on a game where skills take days, weeks and months to complete right? |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
292
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 03:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
OK hopefully this simplisticly gives everyone what they want
A 2nd type of route, one 'In' one 'out'
Whatever link used on an extracter it should 'push'
Factories should 'pull' based on schematic through there inlink
and push there product through there outlink
Factories and space ports should be ctrl-click group selctable (though some functions may need to be 'greyed') for group schematic changes and launches.
To balance building functionality, CC should gain a 'reset all extarcotrs' button which stops (if neccesary) and repeats the current settings.
If the CSM are really are interested in promoting PI interests may I wipe the dust of this thread and present it for your consideration.
An idea for more skills
/edit
+1 for PI API
//edit
Another thread about PI skills
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
294
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
If you do get the devs to look at any of this perhaps also the confusing icons
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=72154&find=unread
The whole Tax thing - 5 isk asessed value for a P0 is rediculous only the very rarest even touch that on the market, some run as low as 1 isk (ie if you produce and sell them your paying equivalant 50% tax)
Also there seems to be more than a little interest fo PI on a corp scale, though I haven't really looked at those ideas.
The return on investment of Pocos might be worth looking at, as well as the fact they arent defensable like other POS . Or maybe a baby option 'the orbital storage' for one man setups.
It would also be nice and perhaps would answer the some of the corp PI calls if you could transfer ownership of products at stored in a custom office by private contract. It might also be a nice idea if custom office storage was a hireable thing ie you could buy more storage in the way you rent corp offices, and even have corp storage an option (another approach to the we want to do this as a team problem)
I know this is a kind of random list of things, but thought I'd try and bring you up to speed with what the PI community would like to see happen.
I think now is a good time to push PI considerations as it's an essential part of the DUST tie in and if there is little or no interest on the Podder side then the whole system may fail to be all it could be
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Johann Tollefson
Valar Morghulis.
Get Off My Lawn
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
I just went through this "adventure" last night setting up a new set of installations. A few thinks I'd like to see.
- When setting up a factory be able to "copy" the setup and "paste" it into the other factories. As it is you click schematic, select schematic, route to storage/spaceport, route raws from location, rinse and repeat.
- Be able to save entire PI setups. For all of my extraction planets the layout is pretty much the same. Being able to plop down a Command Center, upgrade, and paste my setup would be great.
- The order of flow when doing an expedited transfer is reversed from the order when transferring to spaceport. It just feels weird. Launchpad drag flow is from Right to Left, Expedited Transfer drag flow is Left to Right.
- It can be impossible to see other player networks. This needs to blink, or flash, or stand out in some greater manner. Maybe a warning if I drop an extractor on his, "Your extractors are on a neighbors, the efficiency is going to be reduced 25%!"
- Trying to upgrade a short link can be an exercise in futility. Have you ever tried to click a short link between two other facilities? It can be maddening.
- Being able to sell my PI infrastructure would be nice too.
- A PI Collection Officer Position would also be nice. Only role would be to launch goods from spaceport and collect from Customs Office.
- Be able to set taxes on individual items and individual corps. This would allow groups to promote production of certain goods or favor high-tech manufacturing.
-Slow down the rate of depletion. I know, dead horse, but it can be quite ridiculous sometimes. I'd like my facility to be semi-permanent, not just some nomadic tent city that hires itinerant laborers with shovels.
I'm looking forward to the results! |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
294
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 12:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like the idea of being able to sell my network not heard that one before.
And perhaps scaling up the icons of other player facilities may do the trick . (like huge 500-1000% say)
Also if you need an advocate to help you understand the issues and complexaties of the PI gamestyle, as it seems you are entirely new to it.
I would suggest possibly Scrapeyard Bob, Invictus Atreides, Bugsy Halen (possibly wrong last name) , all are posters who have proved there knowledge on the subject in numerous posts here in S&I. (if I didn't mention you sorry those are names that just stand out to me personally of the top of my head).
Obviously I would also volounteer if you needed help drafting, checking data etc. or interpreting technicalities in DEV responses.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1709
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 16:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lots of interesting papercuts-level suggestions. Keep them coming!
Re-Elect Trebor to the CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism!
My CSM Blog |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
294
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 16:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Forgot to add extractor heads to my Crtl-click gropuable list. 
Also whose the Dev in charge of PI any chance you could have a word in there shelllike and get them to write a devblog for us.
Subjects that would be interesting to me at least (others may have other suggestions)
-The nodal structure of planets, how size effects this, the thruth of the scanning discrepancies compared to actual extraction (thought to be skills but the inner workings of it), depletion
-The possibility of an API and what it might include
-Dust and PI
-Where CCP see PI going in the short,medium, and longterm
Cheers
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
296
|
Posted - 2012.02.25 19:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Further thoughts would be
Superimpose your ships command console when in planetary mode so you can fly while you PI. It is possible but you have to fly by overview only.
Maybe make The sensor range skill to apply to how far from your planet you can do interactions with Colonies as ATM unless you want to do a lot of wide range scanning given you can just query the DB offline find the planet you want fly there and scan it's kind of a redundant skill I feel.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 19:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hey what if you had a factory control unit and factory heads just like the extractor control unit and it's extractor heads.
Lets say you wanted to set up 10 factories making construction blocks. You plop down one factory control unit and set it to "construction blocks" then plop down 10 factory heads out of the factory control unit. Now all you need to do is route a bunch of toxic metals and heavy metals to the control unit and route a bunch of construction blocks out of the control unit.
Other than that having all the resources under your circle of what you can put extractor heads on depleting and having to move the entire operation is annoying. Either let me click and drag my entire setup across the planet (for a fee of whatever it costs to build the thing), or make a PI skill that raises the size of that little circle of where you can put extractor heads.
Oh yeah and make a skill that lets me put down more extractor heads. For a lot of planets (even in null) if you are just doing harvesting and basic factory refining, a lot of your factories will just stay idle because you'll never pull down enough volume to keep them busy. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
298
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 02:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lol this thread reminds me why I shouldn't believe a word that comes out of a null seccers mouth and believe he has any Fing interest in High sec issues at all other than to save his precious own self a couple of seconds clicking making his holy POS feul to feul his purile, petty and rediculous addiction to intraweebs spaceships going pew pew or to make sure he retains his seat on CCP's kiss ass corrupt public realtions joke/nightmare.
/rant
Thread dead 2 weeks no word from our oh so freindly community rep. F you CSM and the horse you rode in on.
Also nice threadromancy previous poster 
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
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